Specialized Vado 4.0 - Beware

[mschwett]

As I said: If that were doable, Trek would have already announced that
Yet nobody sane would put a Bafang into a premium e-bike

definitely doable - but at a very high cost, which few people would pay given the limited range and total power. i still like the idea of taking the main battery out of my creo and using a range extender only. after other weight reductions i believe it would only be around 24lb.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

definitely doable - but at a very high cost, which few people would pay. i still like the idea of taking the main battery out of my creo and using a range extender only. after other weight reductions i believe it would only be around 24lb.

Guru said: "4x, bigger battery". Unfeasible nowadays.

 

[mschwett]

Guru said: "4x, bigger battery". Unfeasible nowadays.

well, 500 is bigger than 320. how much bigger is the question

i doubt we’ll see a big jump in power per gram in the next 6 years.

 

[mclewis1]

For a road bike build I'd start with a smaller lighter motor - something like a CYC Stealth which is 2.7kg/5.9lb (weight includes the controller). You'll save a little with the single ring crank. Wiring from that is featherweight (no heavy motor cabling), that, a speed sensor and a simple display will only add a few 100g/ozs. Battery will be in the common .0125- .013lb/watt range, so 600w as Stephan listed - 7.7lbs, and a 750w - 9.5lbs.

I wouldn't start with a CF frame. It's a fun idea and there are many examples of those who've done this but to me there's too much possibility of damaging a nice (and relatively expensive) CF frame. Personally I think a nice steel frame would likely work out well (less likely to have unusual dimensions in critical areas, and stronger to hold the battery), and just hold up better over time.

I just did a hub motor build with an almost 20 year old Surly CrossCheck. It started out under 24lbs and ended up at 40lbs as ridden (with the big 750w battery). Using up to date lighter weight components it would be easy to knock 5lbs off (wheels, crank, bars, post, seat, etc.) ... and another 2-3lbs less with a smaller (500-600w) battery.

2 pics of the new lighter weight ride ...

 

[Allan47.7339]

While I could cobble something together I rejected the add-on style of e-bike when I first started. I've always prefered an integrated design solution. Hopefully you've also posted these nice photos in another forum where someone looking for this type will find them.

 

[mclewis1]

I'm an old school guy. I was brought up on small tubes looking right and fatter tubes looking heavy (yeah I know, it's all perception). So integrated mid motors look wrong to me but integrated batteries look better than my frame mounted one ... go figure.

A couple of DIY characteristics I think are important are ...
a) a solid battery mounting setup. It's not just bolted to the frame using the water bottle bolts, it's on a small solid but hidden platform that itself is bolted to the frame. Thus no rocking or extra stress on the mounting points. This could become even more important if an even larger battery is fitted (say a 1000w). It's an interesting trade off between using larger single batteries or the use of "range extenders" with extra mounting points, cases and cabling.
b) a more appropriate mounting point for the Cycle Analyst display. I make up a simple bracket to mount the CA just in front of the stem to handle bar bolts. This keeps it in an unobtrusive (but easy to read position) and removes the visuals that many folks take issue with on the stock mounting positions for the CA.

I posted these quick pics to show how simple a road bike conversion could be. It's not nearly as light as we've been discussing since the starting point is steel framed (not CF) and is using older mid level (read not the lightest) components. It does currently ride better than a few mid range commercial mid motor road and hybrid style ebikes in my neighbourhood, but it's certainly not in the same class as a $10k lightweight CF framed road ebike.

The idea behind this bike was to build something reliable and inexpensive (using much of what I already have) that would be more comfortable and efficient on 50-100k rides than any mid market commercial ebikes. My target is also to get more than 100k of range out of the 750w (600w usable so 6w/km) battery with a continuous 100-200w of assist.

This bike certainly isn't "finished" in these pics. The wiring is tight and safe but it's not as hidden as it will be. I'm debating going back to drop bars but for now will be riding it with flat bars at different stem angles (thus the adjustable stem). Once I'm happy with the geometry of the drop bars I'll likely replace the adjustable stem with a fixed one and then tuck, wrap and hide most of the wiring.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

My target is also to get more than 100k of range out of the 750w (600w usable so 6w/km) battery with a continuous 100-200w of assist.

100k at 389 Wh or 3.8 Wh/km. On a 19 kg e-bike (equipped, with Range Extender)

There is some reason several participants of this thread are Specialized SL owners. What was the weight of Creo SL of mschwett? 11 kg?

 

[mclewis1]

100k at 389 Wh or 3.8 Wh/km. On a 19 kg e-bike (equipped, with Range Extender)

There is some reason several participants of this thread are Specialized SL owners. What was the weight of Creo SL of mschwett? 11 kg?

I'm not particularly interested in spending 5+ hrs in the saddle. On the road my target average speeds are 27-30km/hr which has a very marked effect on wattage used.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I'm not particularly interested in spending 5+ hrs in the saddle. On the road my target average speeds are 27-30km/hr which has a very marked effect on wattage used.

Then why you need a lightweight e-bike in the first place. Any Class 3 e-bike does the same. And hub motors of the same power as mid drive offer even longer range because of constant assistance. (Higher e-bike weight only costs energy for acceleration and climbing).

100+ km at 31.7 km/h average speed. Czech 250 W hub-drive motor e-bike. My brother rode Vado 5.0 on that trip.

 

[mschwett]

i believe this is the lightest "production" (haha) ebike in existence.

19lb or so. 200 watt motor, 193wh battery. such a bike would totally suit my road biking needs, but for now it's a very expensive, very niche type of bike that the big players like specialized and giant would certainly not invest in. call it a creo or vado SXL. (super eXtra light)

most riders would rather have a 15lb heavier bike with 2.5 times the battery, a stronger motor, and 1/3 the price.

 

[mclewis1]

i believe this is the lightest "production" (haha) ebike in existence.

View attachment 102248

19lb or so. 200 watt motor, 193wh battery. such a bike would totally suit my road biking needs, but for now it's a very expensive, very niche type of bike that the big players like specialized and giant would certainly not invest in. call it a creo or vado SXL. (super eXtra light)

most riders would rather have a 15lb heavier bike with 2.5 times the battery, a stronger motor, and 1/3 the price.

I saw that ... but I'd have to modify your list of what most riders want ... in my case it would be 20lbs heavier, 3.5 x the battery, stronger motor and 1/27th the price! That Ares Super Leggera is $27,000 CAD (not including shipping, duties and taxes ... lol).

On a more serious note I'd love to see some details on the motor assembly for this bike. I'm guessing it would be like the downtube encased motor and worm (driving the BB) seen in the cheater bikes a few years ago.

 

[kahn]

I saw that ... but I'd have to modify your list of what most riders want ... in my case it would be 20lbs heavier, 3.5 x the battery, stronger motor and 1/27th the price! That Ares Super Leggera is $27,000 CAD (not including shipping, duties and taxes ... lol).

On a more serious note I'd love to see some details on the motor assembly for this bike. I'm guessing it would be like the downtube encased motor and worm (driving the BB) seen in the cheater bikes a few years ago.

Hey, come on, that's only a thousand per pound (give or take). Move down here and it is only 22,000!!!

And remember I opted for an aluminum Creo.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

19lb or so. 200 watt motor, 193wh battery.

and a hub-drive motor? Because nowhere in the HPS site the motor has been shown.

 

[mclewis1]

I think it's very likely not a hub motor. This appears to be a truly stealthy type of setup, and not the sort of stealth that's really more of "unnoticed" used in more common/less expensive commercial setups. Given the price points and the limited number produced I think ARES with HPS are recreating a cheater type of ebike for the very high end of the regular (not racing) market. The cheater ebikes used a few years ago in some pro races utilized a motor built into the seat or downtube with a worm/spur gear right angle connection in the bottom bracket. I remember reading an article about an Italian company (don't remember if it was HPS) producing similar seat or down tube encased motors with the inference that they created the motors for the cheaters. The Super Leggera (and other HPS watt assist designs) appears to have very little in common with any sort of commercial hub or mid drives that are very obvious by their presence. Notice the big gear being finished in the pic on the HPS website ... that's just what you'd need for a right angle drive connection to the bottom bracket.

It would also be possible to create a very small unobtrusive hub motor but the requirement to get power to it tends to negate any real stealth characteristics. Now if you remove the need to be completely stealthy then yes, a tiny hub motor becomes a possibility ... but if ARES went that route why the astronomical price point? You can only pay so much for the workmanship, lack of weight or quality and type of materials.

 

[mschwett]

100k at 389 Wh or 3.8 Wh/km. On a 19 kg e-bike (equipped, with Range Extender)

There is some reason several participants of this thread are Specialized SL owners. What was the weight of Creo SL of mschwett? 11 kg?

i don't think you can get a creo down to 11kg; the s-works non-evo version is 12kg stock. mine is about the same after the various upgrades, but i don't have an accurate scale for that weight.

 

[kahn]

and a hub-drive motor? Because nowhere in the HPS site the motor has been shown.

NOT a hub motor. Integrated into the carbon frame. At least, that's what the text seems to imply:

"The components: motor, battery and electronic control unit are so compact and lightweight, they integrate perfectly into the carbon frame, are not seen and above all are not felt when pedaling with the power turned off."

"The balanced weight distribution was achieved by housing these components close to the bottom bracket area with a low center of gravity to give the bike a sporting ride characteristic. When you activate the electric motor system you have a significant 200 watt "invisible" assistance, which does not alter the dynamics and therefore the pleasure of pedaling, which remains similar to a top-of-the-range racing bike, even with the engine off."

Now I wish I had not "wasted" money on the aluminum Creo!!!!

Of course, with my pedaling style and need for assist I would make it around the block, maybe two times! But it would be easy to toss on the bike rack and drive it the 30 or 50 miles I like to BIKE ride!

 

[mschwett]

...

On a more serious note I'd love to see some details on the motor assembly for this bike. I'm guessing it would be like the downtube encased motor and worm (driving the BB) seen in the cheater bikes a few years ago.

i think that's what it is. a small cylindrical motor in the seat tube with a worm gear assembly atop a geared axle through the bottom bracket. battery in the downtube.

otherwise there's no reason for the odd construction at this intersection.

the motor could also be at the bottom of the downtube, but same concept.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

i don't think you can get a creo down to 11kg; the s-works non-evo version is 12kg stock. mine is about the same after the various upgrades, but i don't have an accurate scale for that weight.

You wrote 25 lb yourself It is 11.35 kg for me.

6 months of creo!

on the left, my creo, 6 months and a day ago, when i bought it, on the right, this morning's ride. 57.1 miles, motor off the whole way. love this bike and especially love that with the motor off it's just a somewhat-unusually-heavy road bike. i'm somewhat obsessive about stats, so for the 6...

electricbikereview.com

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Now I wish I had not "wasted" money on the aluminum Creo!!!!

It would be an interesting experience for someone who bought the Creo, and then wasted their money on the Ares I expect quite a disappointment.

There are so many exotic things in the market. When I can see something new and exciting, I ask myself three simple questions:

• What if the thing breaks? (Warranty, service, repair, spare parts such as motor, controller or the battery for the future)
• Will that thing give me the connectivity and tuning opportunities?
• Will it make me a better cyclist? (Will it make my rides better than they have been?)

Answer these questions yourselves.

 

[newts]

Mine was wearing out closer to 2k before I noticed it. I replaced the cassette, chain, and the front with a larger chainring. I went from the stock 40t to a 44t. The idea was that if I spent most of my miles commuting in turbo mode I would try to get a higher gear range and spread the wear out to some of the other rear cogs. Also the wider turning radius for the chain would hopefully help that last longer. I did the lose the "granny gear" in the back to have enough range on the tensioner. It seemed to work well but I sold the bike after 700 miles and replaced with a Gazelle belt and IGH bike so I don't know how the long term worked out. If it is just the 11t rear sprocket those can easily be replaced for under $10 each or make friends with mountain bikers with Shimano Hyperglide cassettes who tend to wear out the lower gears and not the 11t.