Yamaha Y-01W AWD & Y-00Z MTB

[Stefan Mikes]

I beg to differ, Jabeerwocky. The latest "concept" e-bikes from Yamaha clearly prove it is a motorcycle company with ambitions to take a part of the e-bike pie. Yamaha has never invented anything new related to cycling (I can remember some "e-bikes" from other automotive companies, can you? BMW, Mercedes, Bosch, anyone?)

Specialized has the bicycle and e-bike R&D and constantly makes new inventions and patents. For instance, the recent patent for a unique frame type. The Future Shock. Specialized is setting new trends that are later followed by others such as a single motor, battery and electronics to be used throughout six different lightweight e-bike types (SL). All other bicycle manufacturers were slapping hub-drive motors onto their existing bicycle designs. Mahle even does not own the SL motor it makes for Specialized and struggles with the X35 and X20!

Or, the latest Specialized Creo 2. The brand did a research to find out why Creo 1 did not want to be a gravel e-bike, and created a proper gravel machine.

Specialized had ready Mastermind e-bikes in the stores when Bosch only announced the Smart System, which by the way turned out to be imperfect, and it took e-bike OEMs a couple of years to release first Smart System e-bikes.

Meanwhile, Yamaha has no lightweight e-bike mid-drive motor while even Bosch has made one (SX). Shimano, TQ, Fazua have them but the great Yamaha does not.

Pinion announces the MGU. SRAM announces their e-bike motor integrated with the gearbox.

Meanwhile, the only "innovation" Yamaha can offer is a mini electric motorcycle with pedals and drop handlebars, and an e-MTB with power steering... I wonder why Yamaha has even not invented e-bike ABS (Bosch did it however silly the idea it was).

Yamaha cannot shake off their motorcycle background, that's it.

 

[DaveMatthews]

Carlos has been innovative in everything Was not him the first professional guitarist to play through a solid-state amplifier*?
I hope Dave that you as a PRS guitarist still trust in the old good tubes!
-----------
*) Gallien-Kruger remind me of Riese & Muller In fact, G-K bass amplifiers rule!

View attachment 165415
In another Galaxy many years ago. My guitarist sitting by my G-K bass amp and cab.

Me at the times I owned that G-K gear.

Oh I have 3 tube amps. A Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, a PRS H combo, and a PRS Custom 50 combo in paisley (killer).
But... that said, I have just got home from practice using one of my two Kempers.
The versatility along with the sonic bliss is amazing.

 

[PDoz]

I beg to differ, Jabeerwocky. The latest "concept" e-bikes from Yamaha clearly prove it is a motorcycle company with ambitions to take a part of the e-bike pie. Yamaha has never invented anything new related to cycling (I can remember some "e-bikes" from other automotive companies, can you? BMW, Mercedes, Bosch, anyone?)

Specialized has the bicycle and e-bike R&D and constantly makes new inventions and patents. For instance, the recent patent for a unique frame type. The Future Shock. Specialized is setting new trends that are later followed by others such as a single motor, battery and electronics to be used throughout six different lightweight e-bike types (SL). All other bicycle manufacturers were slapping hub-drive motors onto their existing bicycle designs. Mahle even does not own the SL motor it makes for Specialized and struggles with the X35 and X20!

Or, the latest Specialized Creo 2. The brand did a research to find out why Creo 1 did not want to be a gravel e-bike, and created a proper gravel machine.

Specialized had ready Mastermind e-bikes in the stores when Bosch only announced the Smart System, which by the way turned out to be imperfect, and it took e-bike OEMs a couple of years to release first Smart System e-bikes.

Meanwhile, Yamaha has no lightweight e-bike mid-drive motor while even Bosch has made one (SX). Shimano, TQ, Fazua have them but the great Yamaha does not.

Pinion announces the MGU. SRAM announces their e-bike motor integrated with the gearbox.

Meanwhile, the only "innovation" Yamaha can offer is a mini electric motorcycle with pedals and drop handlebars, and an e-MTB with power steering... I wonder why Yamaha has even not invented e-bike ABS (Bosch did it however silly the idea it was).

Yamaha cannot shake off their motorcycle background, that's it.

One day, you'll emerge from this specialized love fest and realize just how diverse the rest of the world is.

Yamaha HAS produced a lighter motor, it's just not under powered. https://www.ambmag.com.au/news/giant-and-liv-release-new-light-weight-e-bikes-592376

Yamaha ARE exploring some novel ( and promising) frame alternatives - the twin spar is a good example, and I'll argue it's got benefits over hiding the battery whilst trying to look like we're not riding an ebike.

How on earth can you claim yamaha has never invented anything new related to cycling ? They were the first major ebike manufacturer!!!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Yamaha HAS produced a lighter motor, it's just not under powered. https://www.ambmag.com.au/news/giant-and-liv-release-new-light-weight-e-bikes-592376

"Over night, Giant released their new Trance X Advanced E+ Elite, its lightest full-suspension e-bike ever. Thanks to the new EnergyPak battery the bike drops 4kg from the previous generation, and Giant claim it is the lightest full-power eMTB out there. Giant employ the SyncDrive Pro motor with 85Nm of pedaling support, so you're not missing out on any grunt."
"The Trance X Advanced E+ Elite has new battery cell technology that was developed specifically for E-bike usage."
"The EnergyPak 400 was co-developed with Panasonic and weighs just 2.3kg."

Yamaha did nothing to their motor to reduce the weight. Giant dropped the battery size from 800 down to 400 Wh and used new cells. Praise Giant/Liv and Panasonic for that, as nothing was done by Yamaha here. The e-bike motor colossus is still unable to make a new lightweight e-bike motor. While Giant/Liv fights for the reduced e-MTB weight, Yamaha comes with heavyweight monsters To sell more motors, I'm sure.

How on earth can you claim yamaha has never invented anything new related to cycling ? They were the first major ebike manufacturer!!!

"Were" is the proper word. What was the first full-suspension mid-motor Trail e-MTB in the world? (If you say it was Haibike, I might even believe you).

 

[PDoz]

"Over night, Giant released their new Trance X Advanced E+ Elite, its lightest full-suspension e-bike ever. Thanks to the new EnergyPak battery the bike drops 4kg from the previous generation, and Giant claim it is the lightest full-power eMTB out there. Giant employ the SyncDrive Pro motor with 85Nm of pedaling support, so you're not missing out on any grunt."
"The Trance X Advanced E+ Elite has new battery cell technology that was developed specifically for E-bike usage."
"The EnergyPak 400 was co-developed with Panasonic and weighs just 2.3kg."

Yamaha did nothing to their motor to reduce the weight. Giant dropped the battery size from 800 down to 400 Wh and used new cells. Praise Giant/Liv and Panasonic for that, as nothing was done by Yamaha here. The e-bike motor colossus is still unable to make a new lightweight e-bike motor. While Giant/Liv fights for the reduced e-MTB weight, Yamaha comes with heavyweight monsters To sell more motors, I'm sure.

"Were" is the proper word. What was the first full-suspension mid-motor Trail e-MTB in the world? (If you say it was Haibike, I might even believe you).

The motor used is 1.4 kg lighter than the old pwx, AND has a more sophisticated software package ( reportedly better than specialized at fine tuning power deluvery, but that's not my interest)

 

[BlackHand]

(I can remember some "e-bikes" from other automotive companies, can you? BMW, Mercedes, Bosch, anyone?)

Says the person who rides a bike with a Brose mid drive directly descended from an automotive power steering motor.

Yamaha has never invented anything new related to cycling

Frankly, your take on this is just bizarre for someone who espouses mid drive torque sensor ebikes as the penultimate form of ebike. Yamaha has been selling these to the public since 1993.

Good thing everyone wasn't as dismissive when Yamaha prototyped the torque sensor equipped ebike in 1989.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Says the person who rides a bike with a Brose mid drive directly descended from an automotive power steering motor.

It is not what I said.
I was talking about:

Bosch concept e-bike.

Mercedes n+ e-bike

BMW e-bike.

Automotive companies are capable of making excellent e-bike motors. The problem is, they know a s*it about bicycles and the needs of cyclists

Frankly, your take on this is just bizarre for someone who espouses mid drive torque sensor ebikes as the penultimate form of ebike. Yamaha has been selling these to the public since 1993.

Good thing everyone wasn't as dismissive when Yamaha prototyped the torque sensor equipped ebike in 1989.

Where are those e-bikes now? I said Yamaha were innovative. Simple Past tense.

 

[PDoz]

Look what happens when a motorbike manufacturer builds an ebike

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Look what happens when a motorbike manufacturer builds an ebike

View attachment 165428

This e-bike brand is only popular in Austria, Hungary and Czech Republic (because of the former Austro-Hungary Empire) and only because of the local production and reasonable price. If we talk about this market, you should mention local e-bike/bike companies such as Superior (Czech), Haibike and Cube of Germany, Kross and several 7Anna group brands such as Rondo or NS Bikes from Poland. I think it is a long way from Australia to Central Europe to understand the local market.

A Czech bicycle and e-bike company

 

[PDoz]

This e-bike brand is only popular in Austria and Czech Republic and only because of the local production and reasonable price. If we talk about this market, you should mention local e-bike/bike companies such as Superior (Czech), Haibike and Cube of Germany, Kross and several 7Anna group brands such as Rondo or NS Bikes from Poland. I think it is a long way from Australia to Central Europe to understand the local market.

Australia has KTM ebikes, but mostly emtb - KTM have a strong dirt bike history here , the brand has a similar prestige / blind devotion in dirt bikes as specialized has in bicycles. ( possibly sour grapes there, I haven't bought a new ktm since 2007 , although there has been one in my shed for most of my adult life - including my sons at the moment)

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Australia has KTM ebikes, but mostly emtb - KTM have a strong dirt bike history here , the brand has a similar prestige / blind devotion in dirt bikes as specialized has in bicycles. ( possibly sour grapes there, I haven't bought a new ktm since 2007 , although there has been one in my shed for most of my adult life - including my sons at the moment)

Why do you always need to refer to motorcycles? E-bikes are not motorcycles. To refresh your memory, the first mass produced mountain bicycle ever was called Stumpjumper and was made by a small Californian company by name of Specialized Bicycle Components

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Why do you always need to refer to motorcycles? E-bikes are not motorcycles. To refresh your memory, the first mass produced mountain bicycle ever was called Stumpjumper and was made by a small Californian company by name of Specialized Bicycle Components

Slight correction - the first mass produced mtb was by the Koski bros and Univega. The Stumpjumper was ripped off from the Tom Ritchey and Gary Fisher bike they sold to Mike Sinyard that he then had mass produced in Taiwan. What Specialized and Sinyard were good at was mass marketing the Stumpjumper and then the Rockhopper and suing the pants off of anyone who got in their way. So innovation, not really, mass marketing most definitely yes.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

the first mass produced mtb was by the Koski bros and Univega.

Mass produced?

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Mass produced?

Mountain Biking’s First Bikes - CB Klunkers

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Mountain Biking’s First Bikes - CB Klunkers

Thank you.
Now, an interesting video. Why don't I hear the word Yamaha even once?

 

[jabberwocky]

Judging Yamaha off their concept bikes seems silly. They are designed to be weird and attention grabbing. As I said earlier, if they actually put something into production with these techs I suspect it will look a lot more conventional.

Their actual lineup of bikes they actually sell are obviously aimed at the mass cycling market. They may not be "innovative", but they are generally good values for their price points.

Praise Giant/Liv and Panasonic for that, as nothing was done by Yamaha here. The e-bike motor colossus is still unable to make a new lightweight e-bike motor. While Giant/Liv fights for the reduced e-MTB weight, Yamaha comes with heavyweight monsters To sell more motors, I'm sure.

Reducing weight by cutting the battery size in half isn't exactly the kind innovation I would praise. Yeah, Yamaha isn't trying to compete in the "lower weight ebike" market (to be fair, Giant is literally just starting to make moves in that direction themselves and plenty of legacy cycling brands don't compete there either). I get you prefer those sorts of ebikes, but the wider market definitely sells lots of full power motor+500whr battery ebikes as well.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I get you prefer those sorts of ebikes, but the wider market definitely sells lots of full power motor+500whr battery ebikes as well.

Isn't it interesting the new Vado 5.0 with a 710 Wh battery weighs the same as my old Vado 6.0 with a 604 Wh one?

 

[jabberwocky]

Isn't it interesting the new Vado 5.0 with a 710 Wh battery weighs the same as my old Vado 6.0 with a 604 Wh one?

To be fair, that could be achieved by changing nothing on the bike but upgrading the battery to newer cells. They charge $1200 bucks for that battery so they can definitely afford to use the latest and greatest cells.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

changing nothing on the bike

Aha

 

[PDoz]

Why do you always need to refer to motorcycles? E-bikes are not motorcycles. To refresh your memory, the first mass produced mountain bicycle ever was called Stumpjumper and was made by a small Californian company by name of Specialized Bicycle Components

I refer to motorcycles when they are relevant to a discussion. Like, when you start making motorcycle manufacturer comments? Or when we start talking about the first bikes to have suspension - there was a phenomena in the mid 70's of fitting suspension like components onto bmx sized bikes so foolish parents could give their kids something that looked like a motorbike.

Now, can you find a thread you have participated in without mentioning specialized ? Yes, I ride and enjoy one. But I also have 3 giant, 2 norco..., 1 scott and a marin in the shed. And an old dual suspension specialized 26" stump jumper frame .