Yamaha Y-01W AWD & Y-00Z MTB

[jabberwocky]

Very nice. I am sure every Yamaha dealer knows what a Shimano MicroSpline or SRAM xD driver is, how you bleed the e-bike brakes or how you adjust a derailleur, for instance. My point is: a Yamaha dealer usually is not a bicycle mechanic. While dealers for Giant or Specialized only do bikes and e-bikes.

Anyone who has worked on motorcycles will be able to learn bleed a bike brake in a few minutes. They are very similar. Honestly, anyone who works on motorcycles and engines all day is going to find the vast majority of bike maintenance to be easy mode. Whether the dealer is going to invest in tools and training is the open question, but I bet a great many have or will. The local-ish Yamaha dealer to me has a few friends who are longtime MTBers on staff (which is why I know them and follow them on FB) and they are super invested in ebikes. They carry Intense in addition to Yamaha.

Specialized warranty is smazing , some of their shops aren't. Giant warranty is OK but has limits - non transferable , not a rolling warranty, and very much defendant on how well the lbs advocates for you ! It sounds like Stephan was VERY lucky to find a dealer willing to risk his relationship with Giant by interpreting a transfer of ownership so favorably !!! I doubt he would have had a similar experience if it was a major part being replaced - I know Giant tried VERY hard to negate my warranty when the motor failed. But they had been great for all the other failures I experienced ( in 2018 giant were still learning )

Specialized (and Trek) have put a lot of effort and money into dealer support. Still needs the dealer to step up and make use of it. And it comes at a cost; their dealer agreements often are extremely restrictive about what other brands they can carry and what percentage of sales needs to be Specialized stuff. Which is why if you go to a Specialized dealer you will see that most of their parts and accessories are Specialized as well. You tend not to get as much variety of brands, which I don't care for as a customer.

Giant is better in this regard, at the expense of that top tier dealer support. My local shop was originally a Trek dealer, but their dealer agreement got so restrictive that the old owners decided to sell the shop and go do something else, and the current owners (old employees) dropped Trek and switched to Giant.

Yamaha should create an E-Bike division. They didn't and they compete with Giant and other Yamaha motor OEMs.

I get why Giant would be pissed at Yamaha for deciding to compete with them while also selling them motors. I don't see why we, as customers, should care. More options is more competition, which increases options and helps keep prices down.

Additionally, Giant hasn't had a drop bar ebike on their US site in like a year at this point. The Road-E and Revolt disappeared sometime towards the end of 2022 and to date haven't reappeared. If I wanted another Yamaha motor gravel bike, I think Yamaha is my only actual choice until Giant decides to sell the Revolt again.

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

Aha. Not a Yamaha, isn't it? Did Yamaha made that e-bike?
I had no chance to ride an e-bike labelled "Bosch" yet. I rode no "Brose" labelled e-bike. I have never met e-bikes from Shimano, Fazua, or TQ. All of them are making motors and e-bike systems. Neither of the motor manufacturers competes with their OEM customers.

Yamaha should create an E-Bike division. They didn't and they compete with Giant and other Yamaha motor OEMs.

I would even say no single word in this thread (Yamaha will survive without me) but I could not stay silent when I saw those two idiotic concept e-bikes. E-bike power steering, anyone?

Come on, even SRAM has joined the e-bike motor bandwagon but SRAM makes no e-bikes either!

Your angle of discussion here, Stefan, makes me believe more and more that Yamaha Ebikes (the USA division) made a smart move branching out in the US market. How so? Take a look at what happened to Haibike in the US: they just upped and left our market (as did Yamaha powered BH). That was a great chunk of Yamaha powered ebikes no longer available to buyers here in the states. Yamaha ebikes seems to be growing nicely here, with their vast motorcycle dealer network to tap into as well as getting into hometown LBS's. I'd say the hedge bet done within Yamaha corporate to create a US division was a bet that they won, taken into consideration the loss of thousands of sales of their drive systems when Haibike and BH left the US.

These two design studies have drummed up further interest; even the negative opinion about them from your end, becomes interest in the product all the same.

You bash Yamaha for the power steering on that design study. But blame Bosch for creating and perpetrating the idea of a No Right To Repair ebike drive system. How many thread posts have I gone over, reading how an R&M ebike drive system for a Gates Carbon Drive with Enviolo hub cannot be retrofitted with a Gates Carbon Drive with Rohloff hub........ or their nifty "Anti-Lock braking".......... Bosch seems to be leading the league in making their drive system repairable only by the friendly authorized Bosch approved repair technician.

For too long, I've felt the Yamaha ebike lineup here in the US to be a bit too conventional. And that is good in a way as it keeps the price of the ebike alot lower than say.....Specialized. It's good to see the interest drummed up with these two ebikes.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Your angle of discussion here, Stefan, makes me believe more and more that Yamaha Ebikes (the USA division) made a smart move branching out in the US market.

The United States is also the only world country to see the Globe Haul made by some company from Morgan Hill, CA Makes me wonder...

I'm sure the people of Turbo division in Cham, Switzerland would not touch that product even with a ten-foot pole

 

[Stefan Mikes]

"Yamaha should create an E-Bike division. They didn't and they compete with Giant and other Yamaha motor OEMs."

The 30th anniversary of the Yamaha e-bike

www.yamahabicycles.com

I think we have sorted it out for good. Let the Americans ride Yamaha e-bikes, as these e-bikes stand no chance in Europe. Not against global companies and not against the local manufacture of Germany, France, the Netherlands, Spain, and other EU countries.

How gives the Dutch Gazelle is so popular in the U.S. while I heard of no-one riding a Yamaha e-bike where I live? Yes, I can see Giant, Trek, Specialized, Cannondale, Merida, Scott, Gazelle, Cube, Orbea, Haibike, Hercules, Kross, Overfly, Superior, and many other brands but never a Yamaha here.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Anyone who has worked on motorcycles will be able to learn bleed a bike brake in a few minutes. They are very similar. Honestly, anyone who works on motorcycles and engines all day is going to find the vast majority of bike maintenance to be easy mode. Whether the dealer is going to invest in tools and training is the open question, but I bet a great many have or will. The local-ish Yamaha dealer to me has a few friends who are longtime MTBers on staff (which is why I know them and follow them on FB) and they are super invested in ebikes. They carry Intense in addition to Yamaha.

Bicycles are not motorcycles. Bicycle LBS are staffed with cyclists, and a cyclist knows behaviour of bicycles, making them easy to diagnose things.
Yamaha Motor service person (usually a motorbiker) needs to attend various courses, and they will work according to service manuals only but not backed up by own experience. Oh yes, Park Tool videos might help in doubt I also wonder how a Yamaha dealer can true or re-dish a wheel... Do they understand the difference between a clincher and a straight pull bicycle wheel? How so?

I had to get rid of the broken frame of my Specialized "moped" (the one with the VIN), that is, to junk it formally so I could de-register the "moped" not to pay the obligatory insurance again. I called a proper service, and a partner in this company said: "We have never worked with an electric scooter before. Let me ask my partner". He called me back and said: "We cannot junk your electric scooter. We can, however, buy it from you, so you could de-register it". (My brother told me it was OK).

A guy calls me and enters our parking lot with a trailer. I present the frame to him. His eyes become wide. 'Where is the motor?' he asks. I bring a broken motor. "It is so big!" he exclaims in awe! His wife gives him a call, which he ends with "I must finish the call. I have to collect an electric scooter, and it looks I can pack it into a supermarket bag, haha!"

He got the frame, motor, the number plate and the registration document as well as a hundred (zloties). I got a signed sale-purchase document, which is good to me.

THE AUTOMOTIVE PEOPLE DO NOT UNDERSTAND E-BIKES WHATSOEVER.

 

[jabberwocky]

Bicycles are not motorcycles. Bicycle LBS are staffed with cyclists, and a cyclist knows behaviour of bicycles, making them easy to diagnose things.
Yamaha <otor service person (usually a motorbiker) needs to attend various courses, and they will work according to service manuals only but not backed up by own experience. Oh yes, Park Tool videos might help in doubt

I've worked in a bike shop and know several professional bike mechanics. I think your perception of what the job entails is a little... romantic. Bikes are not complicated. A lot of the bike mechanics you deal with are people who came in with little to no experience and basically learned on the job. Trust me, its likely way easier to take someone who already works on ATVs/motorcycles/etc and teach them to handle bicycles than it is to train up a rando off the street, and bikes shops have been doing that for as long as bike shops have existed.

Cyclists have this weird perception of bike mechanics as quasi-spiritual wise men who have been cycling since bikes had wooden wheels, giving advice from the top of a mountain or something. Trust me, even experienced ones are googling things.

I think the issue with a lot of your commentary in this thread is you are are making these sweeping assumptions and presenting them as obvious facts, when they are anything but. Yamaha makes motorcycles so they aren't a pure cycling company and can't make good bikes. Their dealers are historically motorsport dealers so obviously can't support ebikes. People who work on motorcycles obviously can't understand the intricacies of bicycle maintenance. To be clear, I'm not saying the opposite of these statements are true either. Yamaha needs to support their dealers in handling ebikes and those dealers need to invest in tools and training for the mechanics or hire new ones. Whether that is happening likely varies by dealer; I'm sure there are Yamaha dealers who could give a s*it about ebikes and aren't making that investment, but I would bet there are a lot who are.

 

[JRA]

"making these sweeping assumptions and presenting them as obvious facts,"

Caveat Emptor and ignore......works for me at least.

 

[Zimm86]

View attachment 165535
I think we have sorted it out for good. Let the Americans ride Yamaha e-bikes, as these e-bikes stand no chance in Europe. Not against global companies and not against the local manufacture of Germany, France, the Netherlands, Spain, and other EU countries.

How gives the Dutch Gazelle is so popular in the U.S. while I heard of no-one riding a Yamaha e-bike where I live? Yes, I can see Giant, Trek, Specialized, Cannondale, Merida, Scott, Gazelle, Cube, Orbea, Haibike, Hercules, Kross, Overfly, Superior, and many other brands but never a Yamaha here.

"Yamaha should create an E-Bike division. They didn't and they compete with Giant and other Yamaha motor OEMs."

I get it, you are incapable of being wrong or losing an argument. Piss up a rope you gaslighting asshole

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I get it, you are incapable of being wrong or losing an argument. Piss up a rope you gaslighting asshole

I cannot determine whether Yamaha Motor has or has not created an E-Bike division, as the U.S. website is geofenced.
It is Yamaha Motor Europe where I leave.
Regarding your insult (I love some Americans to be as impolite as you are! True ambassadors of American virtues and the freedom of speech!): Spierdalaj, matole

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I think the issue with a lot of your commentary in this thread is you are are making these sweeping assumptions and presenting them as obvious facts, when they are anything but. Yamaha makes motorcycles so they aren't a pure cycling company and can't make good bikes. Their dealers are historically motorsport dealers so obviously can't support ebikes. People who work on motorcycles obviously can't understand the intricacies of bicycle maintenance. To be clear, I'm not saying the opposite of these statements are true either. Yamaha needs to support their dealers in handling ebikes and those dealers need to invest in tools and training for the mechanics or hire new ones. Whether that is happening likely varies by dealer; I'm sure there are Yamaha dealers who could give a s*it about ebikes and aren't making that investment, but I would bet there are a lot who are.

The only fact is Yamaha Motors stand no chance with their e-bikes in the demanding European market. They are unable to overtrump DTC brands such as Canyon here. Good luck, America! (I will patiently wait to spot the first European owner of a Yamaha ebike in this Forum, and will tell you about it, rest assured)

You also need to understand the fundamental difference between Europe and the USA. Europe is a cycling region while the U.S. is poisoned with motorisation. Even in Germany, the Motor Country with no speed limits on many Autobahn, the cycling, hiking, and running are favourite German pastime.

 

[BlackHand]

My point is: a Yamaha dealer usually is not a bicycle mechanic. While dealers for Giant or Specialized only do bikes and e-bikes.

In the US, 90% of Yamaha ebike dealers are bicycle retailers. Both Specialized and Giant also have powersports dealers who carry their ebikes. Your 'point' is not relevant or necessarily true outside of the EU.

This thread does remind me that I've been meaning to rent a Yamaha for a day from my local dealer, who by the way also carries Giant and a variety of Bosch and Shimano brands. Unfortunately, the local Specialized dealer does not do rentals so you can't do much more than a 10 minute test ride.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Unfortunately, the local Specialized dealer does not do rentals so you can't do much more than a 10 minute test ride.

This is quite opposite in Europe.
I have demo ridden:

• A Specialized Vado SL (bough one afterwards)
• A Specialized Creo E5 (road)
• A Specialized Tero 3.0
• A Specialized Tero X 4.0
• A Specialized Levo SL Comp
• A Specialized Diverge EVO E5

All against a moderate fee or even free of charge.

I know it is doable to rent a Yamaha Wabash RT in London UK (UK is known as "The United States of Europe"). My country gives no option to demo ride a Yamaha e-bike. No chance to demo ride a Yamaha e-bike in Germany, The Home of E-Bikes either.

An Orbea Rise ready for a demo ride in a Warsaw Poland bike store. Who needs Yamaha e-bikes here?

 

[jabberwocky]

“It’s well know that companies with Y in their names cannot make bikes and if they did they would crumple like wet paper the moment you looked at them. That’s why real companies like Specialized and Giant don’t have Ys in their names. I rest my case. [random pictures of some other brands bikes]”

-Stefan’s next post in this thread, probably.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

YT can make e-bikes.

 

[DaveMatthews]

Anyone who has worked on motorcycles will be able to learn bleed a bike brake in a few minutes. They are very similar. Honestly, anyone who works on motorcycles and engines all day is going to find the vast majority of bike maintenance to be easy mode. Whether the dealer is going to invest in tools and training is the open question, but I bet a great many have or will. The local-ish Yamaha dealer to me has a few friends who are longtime MTBers on staff (which is why I know them and follow them on FB) and they are super invested in ebikes. They carry Intense in addition to Yamaha.



Specialized (and Trek) have put a lot of effort and money into dealer support. Still needs the dealer to step up and make use of it. And it comes at a cost; their dealer agreements often are extremely restrictive about what other brands they can carry and what percentage of sales needs to be Specialized stuff. Which is why if you go to a Specialized dealer you will see that most of their parts and accessories are Specialized as well. You tend not to get as much variety of brands, which I don't care for as a customer.

Giant is better in this regard, at the expense of that top tier dealer support. My local shop was originally a Trek dealer, but their dealer agreement got so restrictive that the old owners decided to sell the shop and go do something else, and the current owners (old employees) dropped Trek and switched to Giant.



I get why Giant would be pissed at Yamaha for deciding to compete with them while also selling them motors. I don't see why we, as customers, should care. More options is more competition, which increases options and helps keep prices down.

Additionally, Giant hasn't had a drop bar ebike on their US site in like a year at this point. The Road-E and Revolt disappeared sometime towards the end of 2022 and to date haven't reappeared. If I wanted another Yamaha motor gravel bike, I think Yamaha is my only actual choice until Giant decides to sell the Revolt again.

The Revolt on the Canadian site seems to be Shimano powered...

Revolt E+ (2022) | Gravel bike | Giant Bicycles Canada

www.giant-bicycles.com

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The Revolt on the Canadian site seems to be Shimano powered...

Revolt E+ (2022) | Gravel bike | Giant Bicycles Canada

www.giant-bicycles.com

It is not wise to compete with the world's largest bicycle manufacturer and your biggest OEM...

 

[jabberwocky]

The Revolt on the Canadian site seems to be Shimano powered...

Revolt E+ (2022) | Gravel bike | Giant Bicycles Canada

www.giant-bicycles.com

Yeah, Giant switched some Canadian market bikes to Shimanos EP8 a year or two ago. AFAIK those are the only ones but I haven't checked all their regions. Giant has released new US market bikes since then and they've all still been Yamaha motors. At the time I assumed Giant wasn't getting enough systems from Yamaha and decided to switch some models to the EP8 in a market that doesn't have a legal class 3 (Shimanos motors are class 1 only).

 

[Stefan Mikes]

At the time I assumed Giant wasn't getting enough systems from Yamaha

Guess why

 

[m@Robertson]

Something I pointed out in the comments of the Electrek article that talked about these bikes is the awd bike in the pictures is non functional. The motor has no cable coming out of it and its not fed from inside the fork.

2wd on an ebike is an enormous benefit, but its not the sort of thing you'll be able to grasp/understand without riding one. All the stuff about increased weight and the ability to do the same job with a more powerful rear motor melt away when you get out and ride one. Speaking of which, before some silly motorbike comments spring from certain lips, these bikes have throttles, but are effectively pure pedelecs. 2wd pedal assist providing distributed traction is a thing of beauty that has to be experienced to be appreciated.

The key to understanding 2wd ebikes is to get the increased power out of your head. 2wd doesn't really increase speed much at all. What it does do is distribute traction and torque. And shared traction between two motors transforms the bike enormously, letting it go places no bicycle ever could.

One of the first misconceptions that commonly pop up is the contention that there is insufficient traction on the front wheel to prevent it from spinning out or becoming unsafe. That concern disappears quickly when you ride one and see it doesn't happen.

Plus the ideal power load on the front wheel - to give you the benefits of front wheel traction without the negatives - is rather low. Furthermore, running two motors together versus just one decreases the heat generated by not a factor of two, but a factor of four. A motor that gets too hot to touch working singly becomes only barely warm when working as a pair. Also, on a 2wd mid+hub config, the front motor keeps the mid drive from having to grunt the bike up from a dead stop on its own, which in practice totally eliminates all of the wear-and-tear penalties of using a powerful mid drive.

There's more.

Dual Motor AWD Electric Bikes (the good and bad)

I like to build top-quality-component ebikes from the frame up. Quite a few of them are dual motor or AWD or 2WD or whatever you want to call them. Why would you build an AWD ebike?

talesontwowheels.com

This one is my sand crawler, dedicated to recreation. But my last two cargo bikes are mid+hub as well and rely on the low-front-power, distributed traction thinking.

 

[jabberwocky]

Guess why

They switched those bikes at the end of 2021/early 2022, which means the decision was made a lot earlier than that. Thats back when the pandemic boom was still in full swing and lots of various parts are unavailable or in short supply. Its possible it was some sort of shot over the bow of Yamaha, but if so it was probably a pretty ineffectual one since they only switched a few models in a small market on a bike that was being retired, and used a supplier that focuses entirely on eMTB that doesn't even make a motor comparable to the Yamaha that they use on a lot of their lineup. As I said, they've continued to issue new bikes since and they are all still running Yamaha motors in the US.

Multinational companies like Giant don't generally make those sorts of decisions out of petulance like a person would. Yamaha has been selling ebikes under its own name in the US market since 2017 or so, so if Giant really cared and wanted to switch they've had half a decade and haven't.