Worth the wait, Hydra is here.

[bexamous]

Doh, the level selector broke, must have had it tightened a bit too much, it got hit and instead of turning the ring around handle bars broke -- its just a piece of plastic.

Can get the display and the level selector for $85: https://www.greenbikekit.com/bafang...or-parts/dpc18-display-for-bafang-motors.html

But just wondering if anyone has seen just the level selector for sale?

Or if not, and I just need to buy entire thing.. any other displays worth getting over another C18?

 

[TDA78]

Been super annoyed with a creak I couldn't locate. Thought it was seat post related, redid it with some SAC-2. Did not fix creak.

I then figured out way to reproduce the creak at home, holding base of seat post in one hand and top of rear tire in the other and putting lateral force back and forth. Made it more clear creak was from rear suspension. Went through most of the bolts redoing grease. They were all greased, probably a sufficient amount, but I really overdid it to leave do doubt. But in the end creak was still there, seemingly worse, lol.

Just now though I finally had enough, I was determined to check every bolt and FINALLY found it.. the bolt that goes through the bottom of the rear shock. Was assembled with no grease at all. Put some grease on there and creak is GONE!

Thank you! You solved my embarrassing creak! I had checked all other linkages, the motor mounts, the headset and the battery mounts. I was sure a carbon fiber fastener was creaking but it was just resonating. Interestingly, we both took delivery of our Hydras around the same time. My creak just took longer to develop.

 

[loamoaf]

The 750C display fits nicely at the center of the bars over the stem, has the extra little button dongle. I have a 500C and I think this is the smallest Bafang display that gets you all the info in a bright color display. My issue with the 500C is it sticks up off the handlebars a lot more than I anticipated. There's at least a 5mm gap between the display body and the bar when it's clamped on, and the display is around 18mm thick, so the whole thing is up almost 1" above the bar. It's still nice and small, has all the buttons right on the display so no extra wires or anything - but it's still the largest piece on my cockpit and sticks out like a sore thumb. From what I could gather from my research is some folks find the 750C hard to read in the sunlight but the 500C can get super bright. I really want something cleaner but don't like the SW102 display (it sticks out as well) so I'm a little stumped here. Given the way the 500C mounts to the bars, if it takes a hit it will likely break off - though if it takes a hite that strong I'm going to have other problems... If the display were screwed shut instead of sealed I would try to disassemble to see how packed it is inside, and print out a lower profile housing. Even if I couldn't flatten it very much, closing that gap between the housing and the bar would go a long way.

Here's a chart of displays, though none of the images are to scale with eachother - 500C and SW102 are the only ones that don't have the extra little button dongle. Not all of them give you the 0-9 assist levels though so double check on the Bafang site before you buy

 

[bexamous]

Okay got two things...

First is battery holder: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08BRNWBMR

It just barely fits around huge top tube. Easy-enough to put phone in and least with my Samsung S22(?) Ultra I can't imagine it coming out ever. It is a little annoying how it covers the 4 corners of phone, so sometimes hitting buttons in corners is hard. Not saying this is best battery holder, but this is at least one that works.

Second thing I'm almost embarassed to say I got.. I wanted a power meter and I want platform pedals and there aren't really many options to pick from, its really just SRM XPower pedals. And they're so overpriced I don't want to support such rediculousness. But I like data. So I got them. Pedal strikes and stupidly expensive pedals seems like a bad combo, so I'm planning to swap as needed and only use them for rides I know pedal strikes won't be an issue.

The actual pedals themselves are just fine. Really its the software that bother me a bit. I've been using Wahoo app on phone for recording rides. After getting Xpower pedals, both pedals have a sensor in them.. so you get left and right data. I add both pedals in Wahoo, go for a ride, post to Strava.. look and power is 1/2 what it should be. I don't know what exactly is not working as it should, but Wahoo says like 220watts and Strava says 110watts.

The pedals have some Zwift-compatibility-mode where instead of adding both pedals as separate devices you only add the right pedal and the left pedal sends it data to the right pedal and it reports all the data. Seems unfortuante but try this mode.. and it was even worse. Both Wahoo and Strava end up reporting ~160 watts.. and I'm confused.. then I see in Wahoo it says left/right balance was like 70% or something. Basically like on leg was producing twice as much power as the other. Which makes no sense. I think what was happening is there was a bad connection and one pedal's data was just missing most of the time... I don't really know how its possible.

I was about to send pedals back I got so annoyed with them. I then try a few other apps, all seem like they have their own issues, and eventually give Cyclemeter a try. And it works. I add both pedals as their own devices, app lets me set one to left and one to right pedal.. and go for ride and submit to Strava and all data makes sense. Cyclemeter app is like $10/year but whatever. I just want things to work.

Riding for last week or two maybe.. fun to track power.

 

[bexamous]

Oh and one other thing: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=100777&start=1300#p1717226

The M600 and M620 have same torque sensor, and turns out it peaks out at 40kg w/175mm arms. So some of the blame I put on Innotrace is just a limitation of the torque sensor. And perhaps explains why higher cadence feels better.

Eg at 60rpm hitting 40kg limit that's riding you generating like 350watts.. which sure is a lot to sustain.. but you can burst over this pretty easily for a few seconds. And when you do Innotrace can't tell if you're input is 300watts or 600watts. At higher cadence the you shoudl be able to generate more power with less torque so Innotrace should be able to do better though? I used to always ride with ~60rpm but since I got Hydra I've been getting used to 90rpm. -- Part of this is the 160mm cranks. Anyways not exactly sure what to make of this.

Oh but I think where it definitely matters.. is not at 60rpm but when starting from a stop.. I weigh like 220lbs, I can pretty easily put 80lbs of force on pedal.. if motor puts out like 500watts when I'm pushing with 80lbs.. and then I put all my weight on it and it more than doubles.. I still only get 500 watts from motor.

Few other torque sensors will read >100kg.. think they mention cheapo TSDZ2. But I had found a few others there specs maxed at 120kg.

It does seem even with 40kg limit it should generally be good enough.. I just worry its those few times when its insufficient that gives feeling controller isn't dynamic enough. I dunno.

 

[loamoaf]

Word of advice, I've been warned by others to be careful with mounts that fix your phone to the frame or handlebars like that. Even with rubber material more than one person has mentioned that the constant shock and vibrations from riding affected the focus or zoom on their camera. A lot of the newer phones have mechanical zoom in some of the cameras and those tiny moving parts don't like that. But I mean I go hiking alot and my phone has launched itself out of a chest pocket more than once onto ice, granite, roots, and wildlife and I still get good pictures - so maybe it's all paranoia. Or maybe my photographer's eye sucks.

It's a little disappointing to read this about the torque sensor but reading that thread it seems like it has a higher resolution than the sensors that go to ~100kg. I had initially thought 40kg = 40kgf = 392Nm which would be plenty - more than you'd put out standing on the pedals - but alas it's 40kgs on 175mm crank arms (or 43.75kgs on 160mm cranks). But you're right in that once you're in motion you're putting out far less force to keep the bike going, so the higher resolution sensor may be better than having a wider range of input force. You'd just have to be mindful of your assist levels if you want to get a full work out, or pedal at a higher cadence in a lower gear.

 

[bexamous]

Yeah read about that a bit but my phone's screen is cranked and at this point I don't care. Haha. If it breaks it breaks. So far so good.. maybe.. few hundred miles since I got it. No issues so far.

 

[bexamous]

Okay so best purchase I've ever made, bike related, is getting Hydra.. or really just an eMTB. SECOND best purchase is power meter. I like tracking numbers for some reason it turns out, haha.

One thing I like to do now... eg most recent ride.. 30.86 miles, 2554 ft elevation and 2h11m moving time. Power meter says I avged 161watts over entire ride.. for 2h11m that would be 351.5wH. And after ride when I charged batter.. 388.95wH put back in. So my ride in total used 740.45wH and 47.47% of that power I generated.

Now its not really that exact.. unclear if motor affects power meter at all.. I've ridding with and without motor and can't tell any difference in numbers, so its not like totally off. But while its rated for like 1% it may be higher and I just notice. I know like oval chainrings used to cause power meters to read off a bit.

That AND while charger puts back in eg 388.95wH after ride.. doesn't mean when motor was pulling it it actually got 388.95wH out.. would be lower due to voltage drop. And while motor pulled in 388.95wH its not really how much power it put out.. there are probably some decent losses.

Still whatever.. cool numbers to track.

 

[Flannel Guy]

and 47.47% of that power I generated.

Believable to me in Eco 1, anything higher feels like the motor is doing most/all the work. Not that there's anything wrong with that

 

[loamoaf]

Pretty good numbers and I do agree tracking numbers is fun when they're relevant - especially when they're relevant to efficiency and mileage. Those power meter cranks are no joke pricey but glad you're getting a big kick out of them. This is something I've really been curious about - rider contribution vs motor contribution in different riding conditions. Your 12.6Wh/mi I think is the best I've seen mentioned in an X1 thread granted I think the 17Wh/mi on the UC pro was at 2300W with loaded panniers. Even cooler that you're doing this with knobbies and not street tires like they were - and I'm going to assume on a trail? At under 200W average motor output I would be able to eek out over 830Wh from my pack before it gets down to 10% SOC

Being able to track numbers of the bike in the X1 software would be awesome too, just like a couple of graphs for speed, power output, torque, and input amount from torque sensor and a separate one for throttle input - and a cumulative miles ridden. This is where I really see the appeal of the more closed down OEM systems that communicate with the battery and have better software integration with an app - but dang I love customization and tuning/tweaking/tinkering way more.

@bexamous do those cranks seem sturdy? Have you thought about what may happen if they take a rock strike with your full weight on them? The two pair of Mirandas I got are too narrow for my E06 frame so I bought another pair after they reopened their webstore after a long closure, and the drive-side crank has a profile where there's a lot less material along the thickness of the cross section - to clear super tiny chainrings I suppose - but it kind of worries me about breaking. Luckily I did find a source for single crank arms and can just order the non-drive side full thickness one if this does break, but it makes me a little anxious to snag a throttle before I go on any serious adventure just in case... A real shame the 152mm set I ordered a just a couple mm too narrow to clear my chainstays with confidence because I could probably pedal so fast on those little shorties.

here you can see the difference - I'm not a heavy guy but I'm not light either so it does not inspire confidence. At least they switched their packaging to fully recyclable and much smaller box...

 

[Deacon Blues]

My Hydra came with the DPC 18 display, but I prefer the B750C display that's on my UC Pro.
I like that the B750C shows the motor's output and as far as I can tell the DPC 18 display doesn't allow me to change the power levels from 5 to 9. I imagine this can be done through the X1 Archon software, though?
I think I might swap displays, if it's just a plug and play setup.

 

[bexamous]

DPC 18 display doesn't allow me to change the power levels from 5 to 9

When you turn on it defaults to eco mode with level 1-5 you use +/- buttons to switch between. When you press and hold + or - button for a few seconds the display turns red and is in sport mode instead of eco.. and you have sport mode level 1-5 which is really just level 5-9.

 

[Deacon Blues]

Thanks bexamous, I'll try that.

 

[bexamous]

Your 12.6Wh/mi I think is the best I've seen mentioned in an X1 thread granted I think the 17Wh/mi on the UC pro was at 2300W with loaded panniers. Even cooler that you're doing this with knobbies and not street tires like they were - and I'm going to assume on a trail?

I got power meter pedals, still have 160mm WattWagon-branded Miranda crank arms. I'm super paranoid about pedal strikes, lol. Not going to run these 100% of the time on Hydra. Just doing it now for fun and while they're on here being super careful, haha. Eventually going to get a gravel bike, pretty sure, and they'll end up on it.

Also yeah I think like 15-25wh/mi is a more realistic range... 12 is unusually low. Most of my rides lately is just me riding around for exercise.. 1/2 flat paths, paved/dirt/gravel, 1/2 trails with lot of elevation. I'm generally trying to avoid using motor.. usually use motor to hlep me keep like 15-18mph on flat ground (sometimes I can do it on my own and motor stays off but if like riding into wind or i'm too tired it helps me keep whatever speed). Mostly though use motor on big climbs, I rely on it a ton. I've got wh/mi for bunch of my rides, last 20 rides over 20miles and 1000ft elevation.. seemingly trending downwards:

https://imgur.com/SUnGA09

But like its just so highly how you ride and elevation and whatnot.

 

[bexamous]

Have 2500 miles on bike. Only thing that bugs me.. there is tiny bit of play with the axel, somehow? Pulling crank arms side to side I can see movement in gap between chainring and frame.. and I can hear it a little, more when I'm riding though.

Removed pedals, that's not it.

Went to remove crank arms, one arm came off with crank arm puller the other arm will not come off. It must have been installed without any grease or antisieze or anything. I don't want to rip the threads out.

Removed chainring.

Have just motor with one crankarm on it and it feels like the play is still there. Going to try to get this other crank arm off tomorrow somehow.. not sure yet.

Anyone tried to replace bearings in an Ultra motor? Or know what bearings there are?

 

[mmcarm]

Have 2500 miles on bike. Only thing that bugs me.. there is tiny bit of play with the axel, somehow? Pulling crank arms side to side I can see movement in gap between chainring and frame.. and I can hear it a little, more when I'm riding though.

Removed pedals, that's not it.

Went to remove crank arms, one arm came off with crank arm puller the other arm will not come off. It must have been installed without any grease or antisieze or anything. I don't want to rip the threads out.

Removed chainring.

Have just motor with one crankarm on it and it feels like the play is still there. Going to try to get this other crank arm off tomorrow somehow.. not sure yet.

Anyone tried to replace bearings in an Ultra motor? Or know what bearings there are?

Gearbox sealing and bearing quality is really disappointing in these bafang motors. Definitely recommend the Bafang M620 FB group for bearing info. A great contributor there designed a 3d print cover for the worst area around the crank on the drive side. This post is one of many, lots of folks have seen problems with the bearings (image is from Markus Rubin there, agree with him best strategy is replace the bearing set with good quality ones-his experience was FAG brand superior to SKF bearings but beware of many FAG bearing fakes)

BAFANG G510 / M620 MOTOR GROUP | Facebook

ALL THINGS CONCERNING BAFANG G510 MOTOR (AKA) M620 DRIVE SYSTEM.

www.facebook.com

 

[mmcarm]

Here's the detailed list of bearings in the unit. Would expect a bearing puller my be required.

BAFANG G510 / M620 MOTOR GROUP | Facebook

ALL THINGS CONCERNING BAFANG G510 MOTOR (AKA) M620 DRIVE SYSTEM.

www.facebook.com

 

[loamoaf]

I've got the bearing set to swap into my motor but have kind of been hesitant to open it up and swap them... I have a bearing puller for swapping enduro max compliments into the suspension pivot points for my frame. I did have an IGUS print for one of the motor bearings as I couldn't find an ABEC 5 in that specific size - I can check that list but the printed part presses into the bearing so it can fit on a slightly smaller shaft. My X1 came packed with SHC100 that I'm sure as I can see a little and definitely smell it. I'll check the print files for those seals as that's something I'm really interested in - I notice a little play in my chainring spider but it's a slight rotational play, not axial. I've got a mix of bearing but some of those exact ones. I did pick up several backup motor gaskets and I have a tube of SHC100 on-hand though. Bearing King in the UK was a good source for me. A bit of a bummer to hear about the SKF's as I do have a few of those in the lot - but oh well they are wear parts and they do get replaced. I think it was around $90 or so for everything? I matched the same seal code as the original bearings though, so I'm not sure if that would be any reason of concern. Different bearings are packed with different greases as well which also has a bit to do with sealing. If I open up the motor, I'll probably swap 10awg power leads onto the controller with about 8" extra wire and an XT90 end. Easy enough to do since the controller uses bolt on lugs instead of soldered wires (at least the stock one does and the X1 reuses the stock wires)
If I could print up some spacers on to fit on the axle before the cranks I may be able to get my 152mm crank arms to clear my chainstay too

 

[bexamous]

Gearbox sealing and bearing quality is really disappointing in these bafang motors. Definitely recommend the Bafang M620 FB group for bearing info. A great contributor there designed a 3d print cover for the worst area around the crank on the drive side. This post is one of many, lots of folks have seen problems with the bearings (image is from Markus Rubin there, agree with him best strategy is replace the bearing set with good quality ones-his experience was FAG brand superior to SKF bearings but beware of many FAG bearing fakes)

Wow awesome info, thank you so much.

Guess I'll be ordering a set of bearings... and bearing puller.

Probably also going to order new crankarms.. getting closer to cutting this one arm off. Tried to use a gear puller on it but can't really grab on. I've heard people say to heat up crank arm to get it off, but don't really want to mess with that on ebike.

Definitely worst part of ebike is maintenance. Actually.. that's true about non-ebikes too, haha. Though easier to just throw money at a LBS to deal with non-ebike problems.

 

[loamoaf]

I find it strange that the cranks WW gets from Miranda don't have the self-extracting bolts. I greased up my axles nice and good to avoid this issue. I think you can get the self-extracting bolts to add to the cranks, the little assembly screws into the bolt cover threads and has the free-spinning bolt captured inside. You can't get a good grip on the bottom of the 'stub' (pictured on the top crank in the first image)

@bexamous I've got a set of 170mm Deltas in Double Diamond blue I can sell for $80 shipped - they're about ~$92 shipped from Miranda or $114+$24 shipping (wtf!) from Ridewill. But of course may or may not fit the color scheme you have. I'm hanging on to my black 152mm Double Diamond black set in the hopes of another bike with chainstay clearance for them. My E06 frame is crazy wide. I wish they fit on mine, love the finish. I think after I bought these too they did a redesign and now the drive-side cranks have a weird cutout in them to clear tiny tiny chainrings or bashguards - and tbh I don't know how I feel about the reduced cross-sectional area where this new feature is on the crank...