World War III

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From multiple sources last night - Germany intends to send 50 tanks to Ukraine. This morning a closer read and the headlines in the news articles are now changed to 50 anti aircraft tanks. Hmmmm, so when is a tank not a tank? Just because a vehicle has tracks doesn't make it a "tank".

What Germany is sending to Ukraine is the Flakpanzer Gepard, a large self propelled close in anti aircraft vehicle. Yes it's based on the Leopard 1 tank chassis but it's not really a tank, well certainly not a main battle tank (what folks usually mean when they use just the term "tank"). Part of the problem with the words is the translation of the German term Flakpanzer (from WikiP - Flakpanzer is a German term for "anti-aircraft tanks". These vehicles are modified tanks whose armament was intended to engage aircraft, rather than targets on the ground).

So Ukraine is getting an older, well regarded and highly mobile anti aircraft system. It's radar is effective out to about 15km, and it's lethal out to about 5km. It's also capable of protecting itself against ground assaults as it's armored and carries a little anti armor ammunition. Combined with well trained and creative ground forces (particularly those integrating Manpads) it can make for very effective mobile air cover (and particularly against helicopters). That could be useful to provide mobile air cover for Ukrainian advances, anti aircraft traps, and possibly some (depending on how well upgraded these particular units are) anti cruise missile capabilities.

This is all starting to look more and more like a 1980s Russian/NATO ground battle without the NATO air cover.
 
Bit of a hiccup this morning in the transfer of those German Gepard anti air systems to Ukraine. It appears that the Swiss (who manufacture the 35mm autocannons and the ammunition used by the Gepards) are blocking the transfer under the terms of the agreement they have with the Germans (originally for their use only, no resale). I assume there's a lot of diplomatic activity going on right now.
 
I suggest we send our correspondent Stefan to nearby Ukraine to take a selfie with his bike and Russian tank
DMYTRIVKA, Ukraine — In his first look at a destroyed Russian tank earlier this month, Serhii Grishin peered at the clumps of flesh in the armored tomb and noted what he didn’t feel.
Grief already poured from him over dead Ukrainians, and he couldn’t spare any more for a soldier in an invading force. Instead, the rusted out vehicle and what was in it — the inevitable end product of the failed assault on nearby Kyiv — made his spirit soar, he said.
Are you on Telegram? Subscribe to our channel for the latest updates on Russia's war in Ukraine.
This time, he brought friends to record the moment.
“I’m happy to see that they did not advance farther down the road,” Grishin said Tuesday, as his friends took photos of a ghostly personnel carrier, also destroyed by Ukrainian forces. “I hope there are more places with destroyed Russian equipment.”
Ukrainians who fled intense fighting around the capital have packed highways to return to their homes after the Russians withdrew to redeploy in the east, creating traffic bottlenecks worsened by checkpoints and destroyed bridges. Adding to the logjam are the newest roadside attractions awaiting the returnees: columns of sliced-open and fire-mangled Russian vehicles, dripping with rain and ringed by the detritus of battles that raged through March.
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Mulezen said:
I suggest we send our correspondent Stefan to nearby Ukraine to take a selfie with his bike and Russian tank
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Post-war, thank you very much! :)

Let me tell you one thing. My Mother was born and spent the first 23 years of her life in a small town in then Eastern Lesser Poland (now: West Ukraine), not that far to the Romanian border. She survived the Soviet occupation (1939-1941), attending a Soviet school. She survived the German 1941 assault on the Soviet Union. Part of her family was deported by the Soviets before: all them died in Siberia or Russian North. The German attack had actually saved her and the remaining part of the family from a similar fate. Eventually, the family was deported to ethnic Poland in 1945.

My Mom didn't want to talk very much about those grim times. Once, she said she could see her Jewish friends disappear. And she never wanted to visit Ukraine again.

I did not know much about the modern Ukraine and was not motivated to do any heritage trip, either. Now, I think that if the war ends relatively soon and with positive outcome, I might want to go see Ukraine. Now, I'm sure Poles would be welcomed to Ukraine.

I could see a motivation banner at a train station today (had no camera with me). The text read, in Ukrainian and Polish (the latter in smaller type):
-- The Fate will smile at you yet, brethren Ukrainians!
 
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Mulezen said:
I suggest we send our correspondent Stefan to nearby Ukraine to take a selfie with his bike and Russian tank
DMYTRIVKA, Ukraine — In his first look at a destroyed Russian tank earlier this month, Serhii Grishin peered at the clumps of flesh in the armored tomb and noted what he didn’t feel.
Grief already poured from him over dead Ukrainians, and he couldn’t spare any more for a soldier in an invading force. Instead, the rusted out vehicle and what was in it — the inevitable end product of the failed assault on nearby Kyiv — made his spirit soar, he said.
Are you on Telegram? Subscribe to our channel for the latest updates on Russia's war in Ukraine.
This time, he brought friends to record the moment.
“I’m happy to see that they did not advance farther down the road,” Grishin said Tuesday, as his friends took photos of a ghostly personnel carrier, also destroyed by Ukrainian forces. “I hope there are more places with destroyed Russian equipment.”
Ukrainians who fled intense fighting around the capital have packed highways to return to their homes after the Russians withdrew to redeploy in the east, creating traffic bottlenecks worsened by checkpoints and destroyed bridges. Adding to the logjam are the newest roadside attractions awaiting the returnees: columns of sliced-open and fire-mangled Russian vehicles, dripping with rain and ringed by the detritus of battles that raged through March.
View attachment 121551
Click to expand...
We need to be sending the semi-permanent portable truss bridges as well with a bill to "Russia" after Her economy recovers and it is shed of Putin, ( I had such high hopes for Russia when Gorbachev was at the reigns) I do feel sorry for the unwilling conscripts who were sent to destroy and fight their cousins and I laud the "Russian Deserters".
At least I do not think the World will allow the "Carpetbaggers" to loot war-torn Ukraine like the Union did the South after the somewhat justified "Civil War" no man has the right to own another, thankfully that was pretty rare around this area at the time.
 
I am annoyed US hasn't sent Patriot anti-missile system yet. Yesterday Russians took out rail bridge across the Dnieper to Odessa, a serious supply nightmare. Stryker Shorad needs to be sent too for mobile air defense. Raytheon+General Dynamics missiles don't come from Switzerland. The obsolete Humvee air defense systems would be fine for guarding the rail lines in from Poland, Lviv, oil tank farms & ammo distribution centers, That air defense only has to move when it is broken & needs maintenance.
M-270 & Himars MLRS needs to be sent, too. Governments don't win a war by hiding in trenches. Governments have to attack. So far the only Ukraine attack I know about has been north of Kiev, IMHO. Maybe the Russian oil tank fires, although that could have been Russian self-harm for riling up their public, or Russian resistance.
Training barrier to US arms is overrated IMHO. Army training moves at glacial speed. I could probably scan the manual on Patriot and figure it out in a day. Manuals are written by pro writers at defense contractors who get paid by the month, so there is a lot of fluff in them. There are probably a dozen or more smart people in Ukraine. There is no shortage of people in Ukraine that speak English on DW or bbcnews.
 
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Part of the problem is that the US isn't "at war" with anyone. Then there's not wanting to totally PO the Russians to the point of them feeling they're being directly attacked by the US/Nato. It's a delicate balance and I believe the anti Russian forces are trying to ensure that Putin always feels he has a way out. Another issue is not wanting the possibility of having some of the West's latest gear falling into Russian hands (although the Patriot is hardly "the latest").

Western weapon systems like MLRS, larger theatre ballistic missiles and main battle tanks (Abrams, Leopards, Challengers, Leclercs, etc.) are considered offensive weapons which would change Russia's attitude towards the western military aid. Any of which would also require extensive training to use. There's already an issue with having many of Ukraine's military out of the country to train on the anti air systems Europe has pledged.

Patriots wouldn't be my first choice, although they would be useful. I'd like to see THAAD deployed across Ukraine, with a bunch of C-RAMs located with critical infrastructure (government, transport waypoints, military/logistics storage, etc.) ... but I doubt the US would want anyone but the US military using them. An option instead of US hardware would be Israel's Iron Dome or other western anti air systems that could also be scattered around Ukraine to deal with cruise missiles. But the use of any of those would be a substantial escalation and change to the existing engagement status quo.
 
indianajo said:
I am annoyed US hasn't sent Patriot anti-missile system yet. Yesterday Russians took out rail bridge across the Dnieper to Odessa, a serious supply nightmare. Stryker Shorad needs to be sent too for mobile air defense. Raytheon+General Dynamics missiles don't come from Switzerland. The obsolete Humvee air defense systems would be fine for guarding the rail lines in from Poland, Lviv, oil tank farms & ammo distribution centers, That air defense only has to move when it is broken & needs maintenance.
M-270 & Himars MLRS needs to be sent, too. Governments don't win a war by hiding in trenches. Governments have to attack. So far the only Ukraine attack I know about has been north of Kiev, IMHO. Maybe the Russian oil tank fires, although that could have been Russian self-harm for riling up their public, or Russian resistance.
Training barrier to US arms is overrated IMHO. Army training moves at glacial speed. I could probably scan the manual on Patriot and figure it out in a day. Manuals are written by pro writers at defense contractors who get paid by the month, so there is a lot of fluff in them. There are probably a dozen or more smart people in Ukraine. There is no shortage of people in Ukraine that speak English on DW or bbcnews.
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No worries.. Seems we will be bank Rolling there Politicians... Good thing you good folks can afford the coming costs in energy and Food.. Be careful what you wish for..

theconservativetreehouse.com

Madness, Joe Biden Asks Congress for $33 Billion More for Ukraine to Fund Their Government Salaries, Pensions and Budget Obligations - The Last Refuge

This is getting seriously out of hand. On top of the $14 billion already appropriated for Ukraine assistance, Joe Biden is now asking for a supplemental budget allocation of an additional $33 billion for Ukraine. Good grief, that’s almost $50 billion in aid, plus the billions in distributed...
theconservativetreehouse.com theconservativetreehouse.com
 
mschwett said:
yep.

(some) conservatives only support defending other nations when they’re a source of oil for their SUVs!

$50b is $200 per taxpayer or something, happy to make my contribution to defend a sovereign nation and the rule of law.
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$200 = a bit over a tank and a half in my van
 
Gas & diesel are obsolete. SUV & vans are obsolete I don't have a SUV or van. I have an electric cargo bike. the wife's car (elanta) gets 48 mpg hwy. I use 10 gal gas a year & 30 gal diesel to mow 24 acres. Used 16 gal gas last year in a rental u-haul to buy a mower deck. no plans for purchases requiring a truck this year.
My electricity hasn't gone up.
 
indianajo said:
Gas & diesel are obsolete. SUV & vans are obsolete I don't have a SUV or van. I have an electric cargo bike. the wife's car (elanta) gets 48 mpg hwy. I use 10 gal gas a year & 30 gal diesel to mow 24 acres. Used 16 gal gas last year in a rental u-haul to buy a mower deck. no plans for purchases requiring a truck this year.
My electricity hasn't gone up.
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love it. keep fighting the good fight! too many americans are convinced the only way to live a good life involves burning lots of oil to drag around a 4,500lb vehicle with you.
 
We all have ebikes here. If we wanted to or needed to we could all do fine with driving much less.

During the height of the lockdowns in 2020 I was driving about 100 miles a month and riding my bike over 700. And that is in a place with a limited comfortable cycling season and long distances between services.
 
Does anyone else here suspect that the Ukrainians are Up To Something? Whatever it is, I'm going to enjoy watching it and I am sure the Russians who survive won't enjoy the experience.
 
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