Why no Specialized e-assisted fat bikes?

[Stefan Mikes]

Fat tires enjoyed a blip of popularity in the MTB world several years back. They had gone back to the niche for which they were originally developed (sand and snow) before ebikes took them up as a cheap way to make the bike ride more "comfortably". I think rad popularized this with the original rad rover circa 2016? They have their advantages; for moderate speed commuting they are cheap way to get some cushion and give decent traction on soft surfaces, but generally are slow rolling and squirmy in corners (unless you inflate them to a higher psi in which case you lose the cushioning and float, or you run some of the new breed of fat tires that are designed for high powered emotos and are basically moto tires).

As for why Spec doesn't sell an e-fat, I think its likely a combination of 1: not wanting to compete at the low end with the flood of cheap chinese imports, 2: marketing to traditional cyclists who generally aren't interested in fat bikes, 3: mainly selling at the high end where there is budget to solve the issues fat tires solve in a more effective way (with actual suspension and better quality tires), and 4: selling legally compliant bikes which don't have thousands of watts to spin up heavy tires.

A concise, elegant and clear explanation in the form best understood by Americans.
Thank you, jabber!

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

If I had the money and space for 6 ebikes, an offroad-oriented fattie might be one of them. Useful on my beach rides, fun for cruising and exploration, and it'd definitely put me over the top as the coolest dude in town.
;^}

Since I'm wishing, might as well go for an AWD e-fattie. As @m@Robertson has shown us with his own builds, low-pressure fat tires aren't always enough in deep, dry sand.

 

[Tom@WashDC]

Hi gang,

I tried searching around a bit, but I’ve been wondering why Specialized isn’t (still) making a fat-tired e-Bike. I think there used to be a “turbo” fat-tire model. While I’m on the subject, do they still even make the (unassisted) Fatboy model? I can’t really tell from web searches whether I’m looking at old/used bikes or new.

I’m figuring I probably missed a discussion or two around this subject from a few years ago (sorry, I’m a fairly new member), but was wondering if anyone captured what was going on.

There is an old but true adage in the retail industry. "You don't stock inventory for the the 10 percenter."
Fat Bikes (4") account for less than 10% of bike sales. They had an uptick a few years ago, but interest has waned among true bike enthusiasts.

If you are a large manufacturer or retailer, you will lose money catering to that 10% niche of the market.

 

[Abridged]

I'm in Derry, (of Derry Girls fame), Northern Ireland. I see quite a few people on these fat tyred ebikes. There doesn't seem to be lots of pedalling on so I'm presuming quite a few of these are illegal imports. Aesthetically they don't do much for me though people seem to be enjoying themselves. I don't know if the police check these things but they are definitely going faster than the allowed 15mph.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I'm in Derry,

Of The Undertones fame?

I see quite a few people on these fat tyred ebikes. There doesn't seem to be lots of pedalling on so I'm presuming quite a few of these are illegal imports

Food delivery couriers. We have quite a lot of them in Warsaw. Tonight, I could see a police patrol that was catching such riders.

 

[Abridged]

View attachment 191128
Of The Undertones fame?



Food delivery couriers. We have quite a lot of them in Warsaw. Tonight, I could see a police patrol that was catching such riders.

Absolutely the Undertones! Much more to my taste. My friend sings for them, if you get the chance to see them, do, they're great! The mural was dedicated to another old friend, now sadly passed.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I and my gf @Brix visited Derry during our holidays in Co. Donegal in July last year. A lovely city!

 

[PedalUma]

RAD has upped its game and is making much better bikes and forming a solid dealer support network. They have also dropped all fat bikes. Those do not improve anything technically or from a user or scientific view. It is just to look butch for people with those personality issues. Here is a Specialized Fat Bike with 90 Nm Mid on the torque sensor and a thumb throttle. It is called a Fat Boy. If you really want one you need to make it yourself. This guy is 300 pounds and rides riverbeds while fishing in the Pacific Northwest. It is not just to look butch in his use case, it is justified. I had to make special parts to make it work. This is a one-off bike. No one has a Specialized like this but one guy out of 6 billion.

 

[Chazmo]

Fat tires enjoyed a blip of popularity in the MTB world several years back. They had gone back to the niche for which they were originally developed (sand and snow) before ebikes took them up as a cheap way to make the bike ride more "comfortably". I think rad popularized this with the original rad rover circa 2016? They have their advantages; for moderate speed commuting they are cheap way to get some cushion and give decent traction on soft surfaces, but generally are slow rolling and squirmy in corners (unless you inflate them to a higher psi in which case you lose the cushioning and float, or you run some of the new breed of fat tires that are designed for high powered emotos and are basically moto tires).

As for why Spec doesn't sell an e-fat, I think its likely a combination of 1: not wanting to compete at the low end with the flood of cheap chinese imports, 2: marketing to traditional cyclists who generally aren't interested in fat bikes, 3: mainly selling at the high end where there is budget to solve the issues fat tires solve in a more effective way (with actual suspension and better quality tires), and 4: selling legally compliant bikes which don't have thousands of watts to spin up heavy tires.

Well said, jabberwocky. I didn’t realize there was a blip in popularity for these bikes; rather, I thought sales were strong although having been taken over by cheap imports. I thought I’d read that somewhere (strong sales), but if I did I don’t recall where. But, in any case, I think the second paragraph is probably Specialized view on this. At least, it was my guess as well. And, yeah, I supposed their one really cool fat e-bike that I saw from over five years ago was a slow seller.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Fat tires enjoyed a blip of popularity in the MTB world several years back.

Well said, jabberwocky. I didn’t realize there was a blip in popularity for these bikes; rather, I thought sales were strong although having been taken over by cheap imports.

These statements can both be true, as they refer to different arenas — the more serious "MTB world" and the rest of the ebike market. Can't speak to the former, but fatties seem to be as popular as ever in the latter — at least here in coastal SoCal.

School kids make up a huge ebike market segment here, and most of them are on ebikes with 3" tires minimum. They're mostly ghost-pedaling utility riders just getting themselves from A to B over our hills without parental involvement.

I also see lots of adults enjoying themselves on fat-tire e-cruisers. Both groups are generally short-trip riders with little interest in real pedaling and little concern for the performance issues fat tires bring. And as long as they're riding responsibly, that's their call.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Fat e-bikes in Warsaw are mostly ridden by food delivery couriers who do not want to pedal and cannot afford anything better for a purchase or rather for a rent. They zoom bike paths on the throttle at high speed and are very dangerous.

Quite recently, a fat bike throttle rider rode into a couple of gravel cyclists on a Warsaw bike path. He broke wheels and the frame of an expensive gravel bike and wounded our colleague's girlfriend hand. The police refused to come because of "no casualties". Other throttle delivery couriers backed up their man. They have become a sort of mafia nowadays.

 

[Chazmo]

These statements can both be true, as they refer to different arenas — the more serious "MTB world" and the rest of the ebike market. Can't speak to the former, but fatties seem to be as popular as ever in the latter — at least here in coastal SoCal.

School kids make up a huge ebike market segment here, and most of them are on ebikes with 3" tires minimum. They're mostly ghost-pedaling utility riders just getting themselves from A to B over our hills without parental involvement.

I also see lots of adults enjoying themselves on fat-tire e-cruisers. Both groups are generally short-trip riders with little interest in real pedaling and little concern for the performance issues fat tires bring. And as long as they're riding responsibly, that's their call.

Totally fair, Jeremy. I guess I fall into an unusual class of “serious" pedaler who likes the fat-bike comfort/geometry. Well, if 1800 miles of (mostly) trails in a year — riding through a New England winter too — qualifies.

I tried an unassisted fatty back in the early oughts (I don’t recall what kind of bike it was), but as much as I loved the concept I knew I wasn’t going to be riding distances on one, even when I was in my forties. I.e., I wasn’t enough of a superman.

 

[jabberwocky]

RAD has upped its game and is making much better bikes and forming a solid dealer support network. They have also dropped all fat bikes. Those do not improve anything technically or from a user or scientific view. It is just to look butch for people with those personality issues.

Lol! Theres a lot of truth to that. I do think the reason so many ebike brands have hopped on fat tires is its an easy way to make their product look less like a traditional bike. Which can be helpful if you want to market to people who don't like traditional bikes. They also fit the "look" of some of the moto-styled ebikes.

Well said, jabberwocky. I didn’t realize there was a blip in popularity for these bikes; rather, I thought sales were strong although having been taken over by cheap imports. I thought I’d read that somewhere (strong sales), but if I did I don’t recall where. But, in any case, I think the second paragraph is probably Specialized view on this. At least, it was my guess as well. And, yeah, I supposed their one really cool fat e-bike that I saw from over five years ago was a slow seller.

These statements can both be true, as they refer to different arenas — the more serious "MTB world" and the rest of the ebike market. Can't speak to the former, but fatties seem to be as popular as ever in the latter — at least here in coastal SoCal.

School kids make up a huge ebike market segment here, and most of them are on ebikes with 3" tires minimum. They're mostly ghost-pedaling utility riders just getting themselves from A to B over our hills without parental involvement.

I also see lots of adults enjoying themselves on fat-tire e-cruisers. Both groups are generally short-trip riders with little interest in real pedaling and little concern for the performance issues fat tires bring. And as long as they're riding responsibly, that's their call.

Yeah, I wasn't very clear. There was a flash of popularity of fat bikes in the (non electric) mountainbiking world late 2000s/early 2010s. It lasted a few years (tons of people getting Pugsleys and custom fats for trail riding), but faded back into obscurity before the modern ebike market resurrected them. Surly still keeps them alive (they still have the Ice Cream Truck and Moonlander, I think), but its been forever since I've seen one on the trails, and a lot of the big traditional cycling companies have dropped them entirely from their lineup.

Back in the late 2000s I had a lot of MTB friends hop on the fat tire bandwagon. Super popular with the rigid singlespeed crowd for a bit. A lot of them figured out they could do a fork swap and do a fat front on their existing 29er singlespeed to get some cush in front (a 4.5" 26er fat tire has about the same outer diameter as a standard 29er mtb tire). I rode a friends Jones with a fat front and that Jones fancy truss fork for a bit and it was cool, but I never found the desire to have one. Everyone moved off them, or kept them for snow rides and whatnot.

 

[PedalUma]

Someone who is somewhat diminutive in stature, goes to the gym for lifting, and is slightly overly preened, is a good target for a fat bike. It is for guys who lack real confidence and want to make a bold counter statement. As she said, the Bigger the Truck the Smaller the D.

 

[PedalUma]

Fat Bike target market attraction:

 

[Brendon@OEB]

Having worked with over 20 brands, they just don't sell as it's a very limited marketplace. The folks that "think" they want a fat tire bike don't want to spend over $2k so any manufacture that builds a product that's serviceable, won't bother understandably. It's a void for sure, but other than Moustache, Bulls, and Flyer, there's no brands that use a Bosch or Shimano motor that make anything worth considering, IMO.

 

[Chazmo]

Having worked with over 20 brands, they just don't sell as it's a very limited marketplace. The folks that "think" they want a fat tire bike don't want to spend over $2k so any manufacture that builds a product that's serviceable, won't bother understandably. It's a void for sure, but other than Moustache, Bulls, and Flyer, there's no brands that use a Bosch or Shimano motor that make anything worth considering, IMO.

I get it, Brendon.

I’ll be honest, longevity and durability are things I didn’t think much about when I bought my fattie, but having an established bike company just drop off the map like that (Juiced) reset my opinions on the subject. Would I pay > $2K for my bike if I were looking now? Probably, because I really enjoy riding it and I’m very likely to keep doing so. Is there anything I can do to offset the onslaught of super-cheap crap imports? No, they are a menace, but perhaps they give school kids a slick ride for a few months.

The mid-motor Shimano and Bosch thing is new to me, although I realize it’s extremely familiar to Specialized owners. I also realize the electric fatties started with those, but I am quite enamored of my rear hub motor drive. I see significant advantages to the hub drive for this style of bike, but I also confess that I have not driven a mid-drive fattie. I think many of you may not have taken out a recent model. I’ve heard some of you complain about noise and poor performance which are not at all factors on my bike.

I will freely admit that I wish some higher grade components were in use on my fattie, and like I said in retrospect I would now pay for them… The front fork is one step up from junk, and I broke one because of crappy construction. The brakes are very annoying and seem impossible to adjust to avoid either squealing or chatter. And, of course, the biggie… Juiced is dead and gone and left no parts distributor or anything but a used market to repair the bike with. This last thing is particularly annoying because not all the bugs were worked out of this bike. I’ve had intermittent and hard controller failures, battery fire, and without Juiced being there I’ve got no one to help except myself and a spare parts bike. On the other hand, I don’t know if any amount of money of company longevity makes all that right. I’ve seen enough from Specialized owners to realize that there’s nothing about a $2000 fattie that isn’t a problem in a more expensive bike (longevity notwithstanding).

The good news about the last bit is that I’ve been becoming a bit of a hobbyist. Nothing like getting up close and personal with the bike to get a little knowledge.

Final comment about fatties… I certainly don’t fit the “profile” that you guys are touting for a rider of one of these bikes. But, you probably already knew that.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Final comment about fatties… I certainly don’t fit the “profile” that you guys are touting for a rider of one of these bikes. But, you probably already knew that.

Here in coastal SoCal, true fatties with 4" tires and up are pretty common, and tires 3" and up are downright ubiquitous. With riders of all ages and genders onboard.

The idea that all or even a majority of these folks are after anatomic compensation is ludicrous. A minority maybe. More males than females on fatties to be sure, and the yahoos out there (almost all male) seem to favor big tires. But the dismissive "profile" you mentioned just doesn't fit the facts on the ground — at least not here.

The appeal of big ebike tires is complicated and not always irrational. I have no respect for yahoos who ride irresponsibly, regardless of the bike they're on. Everybody else deserves the benefit of the doubt — also regardless of the bike they're on.

 

[jabberwocky]

Final comment about fatties… I certainly don’t fit the “profile” that you guys are touting for a rider of one of these bikes. But, you probably already knew that.

Lots of low to mid range ebikes have them. I think Rad started it with their first generation rover and companies kinda ran with them. Having a motor does mitigate some of their downsides; lots of rolling resistance and slow acceleration due to increased tire weight is directly counteracted by having a motor help do those two things. And if you're targeting a lower price point, you probably don't have the budget for suspension (and definitely don't have the budget for good suspension) so a big floaty tire can really help the bike ride more comfortably.

Rationally they don't make a lot of sense for most uses, but theres also nothing inherently wrong with them.