Why no shocks on a Rad Wagon?

[Lalise]

New e-biker here. I just ordered a City Step-through. Husband, our grocery shopper and all-purpose errand doer, is now interested in Rad Wagon. We note cargo bikes frequently don’t have shocks --assuming it has something to do with weight— but we are wondering why, exactly. And...well...how’s the ride?? (We’re in Houston.) THANKS!!

 

[AHicks]

My bet would be unpredictable changes in bike weight would make keeping any kind of shock adjusted properly a full time job.

 

[OrangeWagon]

If I had to guess:
- Pricing
- Need/usability

The RadWagon is the most expensive bike already in the Rad portfolio (it's bigger, more materials and shipping costs). So adding even more added costs for shocks would make it even more expensive (heavier), and cost prohibitive for potential buyers

Then, the wagon is probably a road-only bike. I doubt anyone would hit the trails with it. So, do you REALLY need shocks? That might depend, but the general answer is probably not. And most bikes designed for roads don't have shocks either.

I have a RadWagon, and for the roads around here (SF Bay Area), I don't think shocks are needed. I think it's better that they don't include some cheapo shocks either. If you really want some, you should be able to buy some nice aftermarket ones (e.g.: Fox)

 

[indianajo]

I've seen the roads in Houston. I lived there 1956-1980. Unless the maintenance has radically improved, a bike needs suspension over 12 mph.
Variable weight of a cargo bike is why springs are such an adjustment issue. I weigh 150, my cargo is often 60 lb, 28% variation. After all, trucks & busses have air ride that automatically controlls the ride height. Also, the rad wagon is cheaper than the competition from yubabikes and xtracycle. Neither of those have suspensions either.
Spring seat posts adjust for the more constant weight for the rider. If you wan't one, don't buy a yubabike. The seat post is a non-standard diameter. The head tube is non-standard diameter too, which eliminates buying a front suspension fork.

 

[WilliamT]

I just recently purchased front shocks for my Radwagon from Performance Bikes's going out of business sale. Got them at 50% off. It's a 26 inch RockShox Recon air suspension fork. The fork is longer than the original but still short enough for the kickstand to keep the front wheel up. The downside is that I lose my original fender, but was able to find a small fender that work with these forks. So far its working well in the rain. I had to move my light up to my handlebars.

If you go with the Suntour forks, they have a hole that allows you to attach the fender and light. I had the Suntour NCT forks before but these forks do a better job of absorbing the large bumps. I haven't dialed in the forks so I can probably smoothen out the ride even more.

 

[tomjasz]

Shocks on a bike hauling 400# and a 200# rider would be quite expensive. Very good front shocks can easily cost $500 and nearly as much for a rear. Someone will undoubtedly chirp in with a cheap alternative they have on a bike but a high use heavy cargo bike with full quality suspension would be hugely expensive. Add electric and the price might give one a stroke.

 

[Rover1701]

I have a full suspension cargo box bike. Full suspension on a cargo bike helps immensely with heavy loads; much better control, contact with the road and a smoother, safer ride. I've test ridden full suspension, front suspension and no suspension cargo bikes and as far as I know, cost is the main factor it's not as common. I guess the higher cost is due to the cost of the specialty parts needed and the higher cost of a more complicated, niche, bike design. I'm pretty sure longtail style cargo bikes, like the RadWagon, have the same issues with cost.

 

[WilliamT]

Shocks on a bike hauling 400# and a 200# rider would be quite expensive. Very good front shocks can easily cost $500 and nearly as much for a rear. Someone will undoubtedly chirp in with a cheap alternative they have on a bike but a high use heavy cargo bike with full quality suspension would be hugely expensive. Add electric and the price might give one a stroke.

Case in point, the R&M cargo bikes use entry level Suntour XCM coil forks on their cargo bikes. I would have thought for 8k, they would have provided air forks you can dial in for the weight your carrying.

 

[Rover1701]

Case in point, the R&M cargo bikes use entry level Suntour XCM coil forks on their cargo bikes. I would have thought for 8k, they would have provided air forks you can dial in for the weight your carrying.

I've heard that R&M builds to a quality standard, not a price point, so perhaps the coil type forks are better suited for the cargo bike application? (I've heard that coils are better suited for roads)

Also, the front wheels on R&M cargo box bikes are 20" in diameter and my dealer says that R&M worked with Suntour to make custom forks specifically for R&M's cargo bikes. (The forks would need to fit a 20" wheel and work well with R&M's remote steering system with heavy loading)

Can't imagine that there are many suspension fork options for 20" wheels that fit those specs available "off the shelf" ; this could explain the higher cost.

 

[tomjasz]

20" suspension forks.

 

[Rover1701]

20" suspension forks.

Wow! Thanks!
At those prices, I assume this is an air type.
Also, is that just different prices on the same fork (MRP Rustler 20")?

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

My bet would be unpredictable changes in bike weight would make keeping any kind of shock adjusted properly a full time job.

That's correct.

Suspension on a cargobike that is NOT designed from the ground up to be a dedicated full-suspension cargo bike, can work against the efficiency and create handling problems.

One of the biggest reason most urban bikes don't spec suspension is most MTB suspensions are designed for big hits (multiple inches). They also adjust the rebound accordingly.
Imperfections on the road are not like what you would find on a MTB track and these are small, high-frequency bumps that are better absorbed by a wider, cushy tire.
Also, shocks don't work too well in very cold conditions and require routine maintenance.

If you are carrying 300lbs of rider+ cargo, immediate braking would give a sense of diving effect which isn't very confidence inspiring for a rider. Tuning this rebound for varying load can be a challenge as mentioned above.

Xtracyle is a dedicated cargo bike manufacturer and there a reason why they don't use shocks on their bikes: https://www.xtracycle.com/product/edgerunner/

 

[Rover1701]

That's correct.

Suspension on a cargobike that is designed from the ground up to be a dedicated full-suspension cargo bike, can work against the efficiency and create handling problems.

One of the biggest reason most urban bikes don't spec suspension is most MTB suspensions are designed for big hits (multiple inches). They also adjust the rebound accordingly.
Imperfections on the road are not like what you would find on a MTB track and these are small, high-frequency bumps that are better absorbed by a wider, cushy tire.
Also, shocks don't work too well in very cold conditions and require routine maintenance.

If you are carrying 300lbs of rider+ cargo, immediate braking would give a sense of diving effect which isn't very confidence inspiring for a rider. Tuning this rebound for varying load can be a challenge as mentioned above.

Xtracyle is a dedicated cargo bike manufacturer and there a reason why they don't use shocks on their bikes: https://www.xtracycle.com/product/edgerunner/

Sorry, I can't understand the physics & logic here; if this were the case anything on wheels carrying heavy loads would not use suspension as it would be too much trouble when just cushy tires would do i.e. cars, trucks, vans, semi trucks, etc.
If Xtracycle is an example of the superiority of suspension-less cargo carrying wheeled transports they should branch out and apply this knowledge to other load carrying vehicles. What about the relationship between maintaining good wheel to road contact and safety?

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Sorry, I can't understand the physics & logic here; if this were the case anything on wheels carrying heavy loads would not use suspension as it would be too much trouble when just cushy tires would do i.e. cars, trucks, vans, semi trucks, etc.
Xtracycle should branch out and apply this knowledge to other wheeled load carrying vehicles.

I apologize for the confusion.
What I meant is, if the bike was not designed from the ground up to be full-suspension (very few are), then adding a suspension only works against the stability and handling dynamics.


Cars, trucks carrying huge loads don't have the constraint of weight. Nobody wants to pedal a 100lbs cargo bike. With the constraint of weight, agility and other factors, having a wider tire and rigid fork actually works better.

Some of the famed companies like Trek, Raleigh, Giant etc don't use suspension on commuter urban bikes. Their engineers are far more experienced than you and I.

TREK super commuter: https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/...uter/super-commuter-8s/p/17297/?colorCode=red

Raleigh Redux: https://www.raleighusa.com/redux-ie-step-over

Giant quick-E: https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/quick-eplus-1-2019

Do you think they can't put a suspension? They have access to the best suspension systems in the world. yet, they don't use it for different reasons. Their MTB's have them but not the urban bikes.


Cheap suspension gives an illusion that it helps but one can get better suspension effects using a wider balloon tire and lighter fork.

 

[Rover1701]

I apologize for the confusion.
What I meant is, if the bike was not designed from the ground up to be full-suspension (very few are), then adding a suspension only works against the stability and handling dynamics.


Cars, trucks carrying huge loads don't have the constraint of weight. Nobody wants to pedal a 100lbs cargo bike. With the constraint of weight, agility and other factors, having a wider tire and rigid fork actually works better.

Some of the famed companies like Trek, Raleigh, Giant etc don't use suspension on commuter urban bikes. Their engineers are far more experienced than you and I.

TREK super commuter: https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/...uter/super-commuter-8s/p/17297/?colorCode=red

Raleigh Redux: https://www.raleighusa.com/redux-ie-step-over

Giant quick-E: https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/quick-eplus-1-2019

Do you think they can't put a suspension? They access to the best suspension systems in the world. yet, they don't use it for different reasons. Their MTB's have them but not the urban bikes.


Cheap suspension gives an illusion that it helps but one can get better suspension effects using a wider balloon tire and lighter fork.

No worries, interesting discussion.

I guess everything with wheels has suspension, the only difference is what type and how much & how much is desired and/or needed.

Things like frame design/materials, tire type, coil elements , air elements, etc.
Some bikes designed for smooth surfaces and speed don't need more than the frame & tires while adding other suspension elements could reduce performance.

As you've mentioned, design, application and cost are all factors.

Forgot to mention that weight is not as much of a constraint on cargo bikes with electric assist power.

Cargo bikes seem to cost more I guess because they're less common and can be more complicated to design/build than the basic bike.
It's too bad that cost and availability prevent more people from trying a suspension cargo bike to see what they think.

Thanks!

 

[Joe Good]

Install a Thudbuster seat post ... and a Stafast air shock suspension stem?

 

[BosPete]

Install a Thudbuster seat post ... and a Stafast air shock suspension stem?

It should say, grab GOOD beer and run like hell

 

[Joe Good]

When running like hell from a hurricane ... the only bad beer to grab ... is no beer to grab!