Thinking of maybe getting a Gazelle C380, but I'd like to consider alternatives

[Roamers]

@Eiri , @Stefan Mikes did a great job talking about derailleur vs IGH gear range. Based on my fat ass accelerating up the steepest hill around me towing a trailer, I wouldn't be concerned with the gearing/power of a C380 or similarly speced bike. This is not my normal riding mode, was actually learning about what the bike can do and how fast the battery might drain.

Note: high assist level, uphill, with high load WILL drain the battery fast. During the mentioned test, estimated range went from 40ish to 10ish, but recovered to 30ish once back to normal riding. As I recall my wife went from 60ish to 30ish as she passed me, then recovered to 50ish.

 

[Dewey]

Apparently, they can't divulge anything specific, but it's a "coming very soon" kinda deal.

Hi @Eiri BRAIN report the Gazelle Ultimate C380 with Smart System should begin arriving this month. Details of the 2023 model are now up on the Gazelle North America website.

 

[Eiri]

Thanks for thinking of us @Dewey and @Stefan Mikes
@Eiri , we do assemble Bosch-platform based E-bikes and we do have some belt-driven bikes with Enviolo heavy duty IGH.
Happy to share more info. The bike we are receiving towards the end of May has an advanced BMS+ battery (52V,20Ah)/ smart charger combo.
The production version will have front basket capability as well. It will look something closer to the render shown below.

View attachment 151601

That looks like an interesting product! Is there any hope I could try it relatively close by before buying? I  do hear a lot that the most important thing is to try the bike before buying, after all. I'm in Chicoutimi, but I'm not expecting that close. Is it possible somewhere within the province of Quebec?

The Internally Geared Hub has a certain gearing range, and the lowest gear a.k.a. "granny gear" typically does not fall within what we call "mountain gearing". With the lowest IGH gear and inadequate motor power you could be stopped during your climb, as I described above.

That's very interesting. I never would've thought "impossible to downshift low enough" would be a possibility. Is the disadvantage of interval gear hubs you mentioned something the vast majority of them exhibits or is it only some of them? Like, is a "mountain climbing gear" a thing on some internal gear hubs or not at all?

To be honest, I think my fears on derailleurs were overblown. I tried 4 e-bikes today, and 2 had entirely tolerable shifting, and 1 even had something that mostly felt great to use. Only one felt terrible, which is a pretty good average. It didn't take several pedal rotations to shift, and it should even shift while climbing. I was probably generalizing bad experiences.

I assume if I get a good one and go to the bike shop once or twice a year to get it serviced, it'll probably be fine. So I should probably stop thinking IGH bikes are the only option.

Though what about winter? I would be worried about a bike's chain getting gunked up and rusting because of the winter salt. Are my worries overblown again?

IGH is far less efficient, and a significant portion of your & motor effort is lost to heat in the IGH

I knew there was an efficiency difference, but I assumed it was minor. Do you have numbers?

hauling a trailer uphill requires a significant motor power.

Like, 65 Nm? 85 Nm?

 

[Eiri]

Hi @Eiri BRAIN report the Gazelle Ultimate C380 with Smart System should begin arriving this month. Details of the 2023 model are now up on the Gazelle North America website.

Oh yeah that was funny. The Gazelle spokesperson on the website's chat told me "very soon" and that I may want to subscribe to the newsletter and literally the next morning I got an email on the new products.

Edit: poop, I tried to edit my message to include my reply to you and ended up posting twice. Not always easy on mobile.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

That's very interesting. I never would've thought "impossible to downshift low enough" would be a possibility. Is the disadvantage of interval gear hubs you mentioned something the vast majority of them exhibits or is it only some of them? Like, is a "mountain climbing gear" a thing on some internal gear hubs or not at all?

@Eiri, I do not want to make you confused, just to give you more understanding. There exists an IGH that is as capable as the best derailleur, and the name is Rohloff E14. However:

• It is prohibitively expensive
• It is exceptionally heavy
• It can only be used on an e-bike specifically designed for it, and these are either several German Riese & Muller (R&M) e-bike models or some e-bikes made to order. Very expensive and heavy e-bikes.

Anecdotally, one of EBR members from New Zealand has just recently told us he could climb the steepest street in the world in Dunedin NZ on his R&M with the 85 Nm Bosch CX motor and Rohloff. Without the trailer, of course.

To be honest, I think my fears on derailleurs were overblown. I tried 4 e-bikes today, and 2 had entirely tolerable shifting, and 1 even had something that mostly felt great to use. Only one felt terrible, which is a pretty good average. It didn't take several pedal rotations to shift, and it should even shift while climbing. I was probably generalizing bad experiences.

Drivetrains are of very different quality, depending on the price. It could be something very cheap to something very expensive, from say 9 to 12 gears, there is different quality of shifter, derailleur and cassette. I do not want to go into details but what makes an e-bike expensive is, among others, the battery (in the first place), the motor, but also the componentry. Just fancy your descent on a steep road without adequate wheels or brakes!

Though what about winter? I would be worried about a bike's chain getting gunked up and rusting because of the winter salt. Are my worries overblown again?

Winter riding is a hard subject.

• Frost & wind, affecting your body (especially feet, hands, neck, head) with a big risk of hypothermia and frostbite. Winter rides are typically short and slow.
• Frost affecting your battery (far lower capacity, not possible to charge the battery below the freezing point).
• Snow that might make your ride infeasible. Ice that requires installing winter studded tyres.

We have winters in Poland (and I spent all last three winters riding) but these are nothing compared to the Canadian winters! Gunked up chain is the least of winter riding worries!

I knew there was an efficiency difference, but I assumed it was minor. Do you have numbers?

The efficiency of a reasonably priced IGH is some 85% while it is 96-98% for the chain/derailleur. (Rohloff is believed to be a high efficiency IGH).

Like, 65 Nm? 85 Nm?

I guess Zen Ebikes would be ready to offer an e-bike with a monster motor also capable to be ridden on throttle, and I think it is some 160 Nm with that motor (Ravi would correct me as I really am not into such motors). It is possible to calculate how much power you would need for your climbs but please help me with some information in case I missed that:

• Your own body weight?
• The maximum grade of the steepest of your climbs?
• The length of that climb?
• How much cargo do you intend to haul?

Please use metric values.

 

[Eiri]

Frost & wind, affecting your body (especially feet, hands, neck, head) with a big risk of hypothermia and frostbite. Winter rides are typically short and slow.

Don't underestimate a Canadian who hasn't owned a car in a long time! You can do a lot with good mittens, winter pants, a woolen scarf and snowboarding goggles! I can even go out in "feels like -55" super windy weather and walk a good while without feeling much of anything when fully equipped. I think I'll probably be fine!

Though if it's that bloody cold, charged inside or not, the battery might not appreciate. 90% of winter is only 0~-15 °C anyway.

• Your own body weight?
• The maximum grade of the steepest of your climbs?
• The length of that climb?
• How much cargo do you intend to haul?

Edit: gosh darn it, accidentally posted again.

My weight: 72~80 Kg depending on how disciplined I've been. Most of the time I'm 75-ish.

Cargo: at the absolute high end, 30 Kg, but that would be a big grocery trip. Most grocery trips are likely going to be 10-20 Kg, I'd bet.

I should also say that while the city is overall very hilly, I'm fortunate enough to live roughly at the same altitude as the supermarkets. So while I'm definitely going to haul a significant amount of weight AND climb hills, I can't imagine a scenario where I would do both at the same time.

Inclination: I've gone through a few hills that I might occasionally need to climb on Google Maps. Google Maps reports elevation changes and distances, and I used an online calculator to get a percent number. Here are the results.

• 27 m climb over 40 m. 67 % incline on this little steep street climbing out of downtown. It's possible to go around this one to smooth out the climb though.
• The King of hills. I actually have to climb that one to go see a good friend of mine, and it would be a very long way around to avoid it. 42 m climb over about 200 m. 21 % incline. Makes me doubt Google's data because climbing that one is much more of a challenge than the one I mentioned below. I had to take a few breaks the last time I climbed it on foot.
• I don't imagine I would often have to challenge the extreme God-King of hills that makes even cars cry in pain, but here it is for completeness' sake. 98 m climb over 2.7 Km (3.6% incline), with much steeper sections:
  

 

[Eiri]

• Your own body weight?
• The maximum grade of the steepest of your climbs?
• The length of that climb?
• How much cargo do you intend to haul?

Gosh darn it I did it again. Please check my previous reply, which I edited, for answers to these questions.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Don't underestimate a Canadian who hasn't owned a car in a long time! You can do a lot with good mittens, winter pants, a woolen scarf and snowboarding goggles! I can even go out in "feels like -55" super windy weather and walk a good while without feeling much of anything when fully equipped. I think I'll probably be fine!

Not to discourage you but riding an e-bike means an extra and significant "wind chill factor!"

Though if it's that bloody cold, charged inside or not, the battery might not appreciate. 90% of winter is only 0~-15 °C anyway.

As long as you charge the battery inside, wear proper clothes while riding, and do not exaggerate with the ride speed and distance, it should be fine. Did I mention the snow? (it's the worst from them all). As I said, winter studded tyres to ride in icy conditions exist (and I use them).

I did some calculations with a Climb Power Calculator. I assume your weight to be 75 kg, the e-bike weight of just 25 kg, and I consider "no cargo" and "30 kg trailer + cargo" scenarios.

27 m climb over 40 m. 67 % incline on this little steep street climbing out of downtown. It's possible to go around this one to smooth out the climb though.

Mission Impossible
This hill cannot be climbed on an e-bike at all. You need to find a way around.

The King of hills. I actually have to climb that one to go see a good friend of mine, and it would be a very long way around to avoid it. 42 m climb over about 200 m. 21 % incline. Makes me doubt Google's data because climbing that one is much more of a challenge than the one I mentioned below. I had to take a few breaks the last time I climbed it on foot.

A hard climb
With the calculation, I assume the minimum speed of 9 km/h (2.5 m/s). Given the length of the climb, I calculate the time needed to negotiate the incline, and enter these values in the Calculator.

• No cargo: the required power is 530 W (you need "mountain gearing" for that. I assume you can input 100 W with your own legs, leaving 430 W to the motor. I can see a 85-90 Nm motor necessary there, for example Bosch CX or Specialized 2.2.
• 30 kg of cargo. 670 W of the total mechanical power to climb the hill? I doubt. You need to pedal for 80 seconds with your all might and even Bosch CX might be too weak there. (Specialized 2.2 with its 90 Nm and 565 W of its peak power could do the job if you pedalled really hard!)

I don't imagine I would often have to challenge the extreme God-King of hills that makes even cars cry in pain, but here it is for completeness' sake. 98 m climb over 2.7 Km (3.6% incline), with much steeper sections:

An Easy Cake

• "30 kg of cargo" 98 m elevation gain, 2700 m at 12 km/h or 3.333 m/s (I assume you want to complete that hill in 13.5 min or 810 s). This is only 184 W, of which you would provide 100 W yourself. Easy task for any mid-motor e-bike, and I think you would clear that climb a way faster in 13.5 min, despite local steeper segments!
• "No cargo" (just you and 25 kg of e-bike): required total power of 144 W, that's nothing!

The new 2023 Gazelle C380 HMB would do the last case easily, even with cargo!

 

[fooferdoggie]

A hard climb
With the calculation, I assume the minimum speed of 9 km/h (2.5 m/s). Given the length of the climb, I calculate the time needed to negotiate the incline, and enter these values in the Calculator.

• No cargo: the required power is 530 W (you need "mountain gearing" for that. I assume you can input 100 W with your own legs, leaving 430 W to the motor. I can see a 85-90 Nm motor necessary there, for example Bosch CX or Specialized 2.2.
• 30 kg of cargo. 670 W of the total mechanical power to climb the hill? I doubt. You need to pedal for 80 seconds with your all might and even Bosch CX might be too weak there. (Specialized 2.2 with its 90 Nm and 565 W of its peak power could do the job if you pedalled really hard!)

ya its work the problem is keeping your cadence up so the motor can give you the most power. I needed my treks full juice so I could spin around 70 rpms and I had to put out 520 watts. if I cant spin that fast then al lI can do is 450 watts and the motor is not helping as much. we did one like that on the tandem about killed us the two blocks we did. this has been my test hill.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

View attachment 151792

Foofer, I know. Do it in the snowy/icy winter.

 

[Eiri]

Not to discourage you but riding an e-bike means an extra and significant "wind chill factor!"

True; I'll need to use the goggles more often and (finally) find myself some boots that are actually warm enough.

No cargo: the required power is 530 W (you need "mountain gearing" for that. I assume you can input 100 W with your own legs, leaving 430 W to the motor. I can see a 85-90 Nm motor necessary there, for example Bosch CX or Specialized 2.2.

For that hill, which bikes would do the job? I have trouble comparing gears on bikes. Like, the C380 "semi-gearless" system vs a derailleur with 10 speeds vs a gear hub with 10 speeds. I assume they're not directly comparable. But how do I know how well a given bike's gears handle climbs?

Edit: this interface... Accidentally posted again. Edited with more details.

 

[Roamers]

Like, the C380 "semi-gearless" system

Although I don't have data handy, the IGH has a ratio spec (high and low) combined with the front and rear gears, you can calculate your gear range.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

For that hill, which bikes would do the job?

A tough question! What dealers of big bicycle brands do you have around? It is not enough to buy an e-bike. You also need to have a qualified LBS to handle repairs and warranty claims for a given brand.

I have trouble comparing gears on bikes. Like, the C380 "semi-gearless" system vs a derailleur with 10 speeds vs a gear hub with 10 speeds. I assume they're not directly comparable.

I have read the specs of the Enviolo C380 IGH. If I can understand the information from the Enviolo website, the IGH already has mountain gearing in the lowest range. Perhaps I was afraid too much? Still, I doubt the 75 Nm of the Bosch Performance Lince motor could provide the necessary peak power for you hard climb. On the other hand, it is just less than 2 minutes of hard pedalling in the maximum assistance level...

But how do I know how well a given bike's gears handle climbs?

If you had a dealer of a respectable brand around then perhaps a half-day long demo ride could be arranged?

General note: Before you start the experiment with the trailer, I recommend ensuring your future e-bike would be equipped with a sturdy rack (the figure is often engraved on the rack of premium e-bikes). You could start with carrying your groceries in two huge panniers, and possibly a backpack (this is how I do it). 10-20 kg is not an issue for panniers/rack!

 

[TrevorB]

So if I understand properly, you have a lot of experience riding on road bikes, and on those bikes, you have to hunch forward a lot, and that "professional deformation" made you always want to hunch forward even though the bike was made with an upright posture in mind. Is that right?

In that case, am I correct to assume it'll probably be okay for me if I haven't ridden in a long time, and thus probably don't really have that kind of tendency? In other words, do I still have to worry about that kind of scary fall if I sit pretty straight?


What do you mean? If I bring the battery inside for charging, is it not okay?


Yeesh, those make me want to hurl insults and other things at riders because of the noise. Maybe not. Also part of the point of the ebike is to get some amount of exercise.


Dang, they don't mess around. Though if I remind myself of the absurd amount of effort and money car owners put on their vehicles... I guess the pill is swallowable.


That sounds like a pretty interesting idea. I hadn't considered the possibility of keeping the battery warmer while riding.


Ah, I guess "puncture-resistant" isn't as magical as one might hope lol. Got it.


So you basically uninstall them from the bike, use them as grocery bags inside, and bring them up to the kitchen to unpack at home? Ah, and what's good about those panniers in particular? Compared to, say, the first-party Gazelle ones, or the million other options you see on Amazon?


Do a lot of stores allow that? How do they make sure you don't steal it? I know for cars the salesperson will just ride with the test driver, but how does it work with bikes?


Might sound dumb but... I need to carry tools?

You will need some basic tools to remove rear wheel and fix puncture as its not quick release. May need to disconnect shift cable.
Best get shop to show you how.

Vaude are only panniers I've used and had good run out of them can't comment on other brands. To lock Vaude to bike need a small combination padlock that goes through release mechanism. Has to be a specific Abus one as I found out by trial and error. Vaude can tell you model number.

The gear range on 380 IGH is same as 11-42t cassette, combined with 65nm motor more than enough when towing heavy trailer. I similar bike with this motor and gearing.

I have one hill which is 16m elevation over 70m. Which is steepest hill around here. 11-42t cassette struggles but straight forward with 11-46t cassette.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The gear range on 380 IGH is same as 11-42t cassette, combined with 65nm motor more than enough when towing heavy trailer.

Not uphill for the inclination and the ascent length #2 as given by the OP in post #26.

The gear range on 380 IGH is same as 11-42t cassette

With what chainring size if I might ask? That is, what is the gear-inch for the easiest gear of the Enviolo?

 

[Eiri]

A tough question! What dealers of big bicycle brands do you have around? It is not enough to buy an e-bike. You also need to have a qualified LBS to handle repairs and warranty claims for a given brand.

Actually close to me, there's a couple of dealers of Moustache bikes. One of them also carries Trek, but only a few models. Like I think they only sell the Verve+ 3.

There isn't much choice here and it was a pretty frustrating to have salespeople recommend a brand because "this is the brand we're ordering this year "

My mom and I are going on a weekend trip to Montreal towards the end of May. Montreal is a huge city, so I have no doubt they sell all the brands. I intend to try some bikes there. Not sure which store(s) I'll visit. I've identified Quantum eBikes that seems to carry both Gazelle and Riese & Müller, as well as some other brands I don't know much about, like O2feel, Gepida, Stromer, Quantum and Urban Arrow. But it's not like they carry everything. Maybe I ought to find another store to visit.

On the other hand, it is just less than 2 minutes of hard pedalling in the maximum assistance level...

What happens exactly when you try to climb but the motor is too weak?

If you had a dealer of a respectable brand around then perhaps a half-day long demo ride could be arranged?

Yeah, that might be tough. My mom will be glad to accommodate me stopping by a couple of stores during our trip in Montreal, but I really don't think she'd find the idea of waiting for me for that long very thrilling. And it's not like she could tag along, considering her inner ear/balance issues.

the IGH has a ratio spec (high and low) combined with the front and rear gears, you can calculate your gear range.

Sorry, I think you melted my brain. The bike has front gears too?!

You could start with carrying your groceries in two huge panniers, and possibly a backpack (this is how I do it). 10-20 kg is not an issue for panniers/rack!

I'm not really worried about weight. It's more, like, volume, and the convenience of filling it up at the grocery store, and bringing it up to my apartment to put away. But maybe I'm needlessly worried.

Anyway maybe I ought to try panniers first. Even if I do end up getting a trailer, panniers sound like a good idea to carry other categories/sizes of stuff.

Though shopping for the panniers sounds like yet another headache. Maybe I ought to focus on choosing a bike first.

You will need some basic tools to remove rear wheel and fix puncture as its not quick release. May need to disconnect shift cable.
Best get shop to show you how.

Sounds smart

Vaude are only panniers I've used and had good run out of them can't comment on other brands. To lock Vaude to bike need a small combination padlock that goes through release mechanism. Has to be a specific Abus one as I found out by trial and error. Vaude can tell you model number.

I'll keep that in mind!

The gear range on 380 IGH is same as 11-42t cassette, combined with 65nm motor more than enough when towing heavy trailer. I similar bike with this motor and gearing.

I have one hill which is 16m elevation over 70m. Which is steepest hill around here. 11-42t cassette struggles but straight forward with 11-46t cassette.

Can you help me understand those numbers? 11-42t and such. Sounds like the key to understanding gears, but I'm confused considering the first number doesn't change but the 11-46t one still helps with hills?

 

[Eiri]

With what chainring size if I might ask? That is, what is the gear-inch for the easiest gear of the Enviolo?

I don't understand any of those numbers, but the Gazelle Ultimate C380 HMB says this:

Front chainwheel
55
Rear chainwheel
24

Is that what you were looking for?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I will come back later Eiri (am at work now). A question now: any Specialized dealer in Montreal?

 

[Roamers]

Sorry, I think you melted my brain. The bike has front gears too?!

Sorry I've confused you. Front and rear chainwheels as you indicated plus IGH which acts similar to a derailleur cassette.

 

[Eiri]

Yes. In fact, several.

I even learned there's one much closer to me, 40-ish Km away, in Alma. It also requires a car trip, but it's more of an afternoon than a week-end. So if you think there's a bike I should really try, that's a possibility even before I visit Montréal.