Why Juiced Should Consider Making a "Moped"

[Asher]

In most US states, a moped is:

*a bicycle
*with a motor less than 2 brake horsepower (less than 4 hp in California) i.e. 1,500 Watts
*that may require a motorcycle license, insurance, or registration
*is limited to 30 mph

California, Juiced's home state, allows 3k watts, and you only have to pay $21 for a license plate, as well as have a motorcycle/moped license. No insurance required, and a bicycle helmet will do.

This would allow Juiced to make high powered, street legal bikes. It also dovetails with what I've heard from many, that they wouldn't want to go above 30 mph on a bike anyway. Technically, they don't need to do anything different really, but they can just be clear that it's street legal, provided you meet your state's regulations.

Design-wise, the bike itself wouldn't be any different. Though I'll continue to stump for an athletic balloon bike version of the CCS - rigid fork, 30-35mm internal diameter rims, balloon tires stock with room for up to 2.8" tires with fenders, and a bit more reach than the CCS for a more aero positioning.

I've seen a couple scooter/moped type electric bikes online, and they have awful range. The Genze scooter costs $3k+, weighs 230 lbs and gets 30 miles range, lol. And has a top speed of 30 mph.

In California and I believe many other places, mopeds are required to use bike lanes. Like Class 3 bikes, it is banned from recreational type off street bike paths.

Designation as a moped would also allow a throttle up to 30 mph.

Possible downsides:
*States may remove moped access at some point in the future to the bike lane if they haven't already
*Since they require a license, if you got ticketed for something that might mean points on your license or a higher fine.

 

[Ken M]

There are design alternatives:
1) A pedal-less moped could be produced with the power and speed limited to Class 2 eBike status. The fact that the Footloose ebike (a bike with pedals that are not part of the drive system) is being sold in the US legally as an eBike provide the precedent to allow this design to be sold as an eBike. This could be compelling for people that simply can't or don't want to pedal (like not wanting to get sweaty at all on a short commute to the office) but still want to use bike paths legally, not have to pay for insurance, registration, or parking.

2) Just make a faster pedelec that in nominally rated at 750W (essentially the regulations are so flawed the peak can be much higher such that speeds in the 55kph / 35mph range are very viable on a pedelec (ie a true eBike) with a street mode set at 20mph and an "off-road" mode that unlocks the speed & power (everyone knows that will be used to go faster on road when desired but until speed limits are used to regulate eBikes like autos are regulated it's not going to be possible to determine if it was the rider or the motor that achieved the faster than 20mph speed).

We need this human-scale transportation solution to get more people out of cars but our politicians are technically not capable of writing effective legislation. Time is money in the US more so than most countries where ebikes are more prolific so allowing faster solutions is a MUST for widespread adoption as a viable form of transportation. Are fast eBiks going to be more risky / less safe? Yes, but in reality it's far safer for a people to be riding a bike at 35mph/55kph than going 75mph in a car because at 35mph you have a far less likelihood of dying in a accident (unless you are hit by a much larger auto and as such how fast you were going on the bike is not going to matter).

I have a motto for my ebike riding: If you don't want to ride faster than 20mph because you think it's unsafe...then walk.

 

[Ken M]

Sorry for a few sentence mistakes in my earlier response...I tend to just type fast and not proof read. Hopefully the content & message is still clear.

 

[Asher]

Regarding your number 2), there are problems:

1. Going above 30 mph is very energy intensive. Your range will be awful unless you have so many batteries that the bike gets heavy and then your pedaling will be less effective. A velomobiles is the ultimate solution for that.
2. Roads are not quality enough to sustain higher speeds that safely on a bike, though wider tires help. Unless you have a major suspension but then it's the weight problem of #1. 30 mph = 44 feet per second. Scanning 44 feet per second of road is already a feat.
3. 35 mph is now 20 mph faster then unpowered cyclists. Too much speed difference when you're sharing lanes with them.

To be clear, I think the power of the moped designation is much more important than the speed, to give more acceleration and to sustain speed on hills.

I strongly agree about human scale transportation, but the solution is lower speed limits in cities across the board - say 25-30 mph on boulevards/arterials, 15-20 mph on residential. With smart speed limiters that actually make that happen. The EU transport safety group is now proposing such a technology which I think will be revolutionary. Intelligent speed assist. I'm about to get rid of my car but I wish I could flick a switch to always obey the speed limit automatically (except maybe on a controlled access highway).

Helsinki has found that traffic speed is optimal at 30-40 kph.

 

[rich c]

I have no interest in riding a moped. Speed and safety on the streets is my biggest concern. I ride as few streets as I can with my bikes now. Revamping the transportation system is such a remote possibility. Sure, easy conversation for a bicycle based forum, but we are a crazy tiny minority in the United States. I have no interest either, in leaving my bike outside the grocery store while I shop. High possibility it won't be there when I come back. Same issue for a moped in my opinion.

 

[Asher]

I have no interest in riding a moped. Speed and safety on the streets is my biggest concern. I ride as few streets as I can with my bikes now. Revamping the transportation system is such a remote possibility. Sure, easy conversation for a bicycle based forum, but we are a crazy tiny minority in the United States. I have no interest either, in leaving my bike outside the grocery store while I shop. High possibility it won't be there when I come back. Same issue for a moped in my opinion.

You misunderstood the OP. A moped can simply be a CCS/RCS with more power. Not different parts. Preferably bigger brake rotors like the Stromer ST5.

As for revamping transport, it's already happening at the very early stages, with Uber/Lyft, and bikeshare. Saying something is impossible when it's already on the table in the EU...

 

[rich c]

You misunderstood the OP. A moped can simply be a CCS/RCS with more power. Not different parts. Preferably bigger brake rotors like the Stromer ST5.

As for revamping transport, it's already happening at the very early stages, with Uber/Lyft, and bikeshare. Saying something is impossible when it's already on the table in the EU...

Should I have said I have no interest in riding a high powered bicycle to make you more comfortable?

 

[JeffMD]

An e-bike with no pedal assist is a low range scooter that is uncomfortable to ride and cannot carry as much.

Mopeds are fully shocked, padded, ask nothing of the occupant to propel it, and use petrol for reliability.

 

[Chris Hammond]

So I do long distance high speed commuting on my CCS. I ride most of the time in level 2 traveling 24-30 mph depending on slope, wind, etc. I would preferentially ride in level 3 more often, but the minor increase in speed is not worth the extra power consumed. I use level 3 to help achieve higher speed and then drop back to level 2 and maintain generally.
Based on my experience, I would make a couple of points.
Yes I would be happy to go faster on my CCS. The bike is very stable at speed, and I don't find myself nervous at all over 30 mph. The controller on the bikes begins cutting power assistance at ~ 33mph. This realistically makes 9th gear unusable unless you like a very slow pedal cadence.
To go faster, I think the RCS would probably be a better platform for the simple reason of the larger tires providing better shock and bump absorption at high speed, especially on the rear with no suspension. If the CCS could get significantly wider tires then it would work great as a moped. Thanks to Reid we know that is not really possible. That said, if I could make my CCS provide assistance up to 40ish mph I'd love it.

The higher speed would demand a bigger battery as well. The 52V 21Ah would realistically be the minimum size you would want. I notice the performance lag ever so slightly near the end of my commute on occasion, especially if I have been fighting a headwind and used more power than usual. This shows up on the hill climbs near the end of my ride. It should be noted that I only charge to 80% and use about 500 Wh in a 30 mile commute. This puts battery voltage down to around 48V by the end of my ride. Charging to 100% would aleviate this I am sure, and for most people riding shorter distances at higher speed it would likely not be an issue, with the exception of lower battery longevity.

 

[Ken M]

Regarding your number 2), there are problems:

1. Going above 30 mph is very energy intensive. Your range will be awful unless you have so many batteries that the bike gets heavy and then your pedaling will be less effective. A velomobiles is the ultimate solution for that.
2. Roads are not quality enough to sustain higher speeds that safely on a bike, though wider tires help. Unless you have a major suspension but then it's the weight problem of #1. 30 mph = 44 feet per second. Scanning 44 feet per second of road is already a feat.
3. 35 mph is now 20 mph faster then unpowered cyclists. Too much speed difference when you're sharing lanes with them.

To be clear, I think the power of the moped designation is much more important than the speed, to give more acceleration and to sustain speed on hills.

I strongly agree about human scale transportation, but the solution is lower speed limits in cities across the board - say 25-30 mph on boulevards/arterials, 15-20 mph on residential. With smart speed limiters that actually make that happen. The EU transport safety group is now proposing such a technology which I think will be revolutionary. Intelligent speed assist. I'm about to get rid of my car but I wish I could flick a switch to always obey the speed limit automatically (except maybe on a controlled access highway).

Helsinki has found that traffic speed is optimal at 30-40 kph.

1) Wind resistance impact every form of transportation. The motor and battery technology is already adequate to power/assist 35mph pedelecs and that will continue to improve (don't consider the current capability of a 60 lb. ebike the limit of the technology. We are not on a flat object in the middle of the universe as some believe, so you can assume to tech will continue to improve

An eBike going 35mph is still likely 20X more efficient than any fossil fuel automobile. Add to that on long commutes, say in the 10-20 mile range the time savings from being able to cruise at 25-35mph can provide significant time savings - this can be a much bigger factor than fuel savings for many people.

2) I do get a laugh watching the spandexters riding on road bikes with 100psi tires getting beat to death by tiny side walk cracks and road tar lines. You are correct the infrastructure is not optimized for bikes, but I ride a speed pedelec with Vee Tire Speedsters at 27.5 x 3.0 rear and 29 x 2.8 front which I find provide "good enough" ride quality and handling to allow me to hit 30-35mph without feeling like I'm riding dangerously (I can only hit that speed on my current ebike with the aid of a slight downhill or tailwind). I do have a carbon fork and a carbon suspension seat post which "passively" absorb some road chatter. Truth be told I love flying by a spandexster going slow to keep their teeth from rattling out because their bike transmits everything into their body. Don't take me wrong, I understand the beuty of a great road bike and racing those bikes, but I don't get it that people buy a bike like that for fitness and commuting just because they see the pros riding them.


Note: as for speed without suspension, professional riders will hit speeds upwards of 100kph on mountain downhills so there is no hard and fast rules when a bike becomes unsafe. I do kind of feel that my comfort limit for speed on my bike is at most around 40mph (I only go fast certain stretches of my commute that I know are smooth enough to go the speeds I go at - that's called being a smart and responsible biker).

3) Non-ebikers typically have to deal with 5000 SUV drivers flying by them going 25mph+ past them while they are texting or gourging down a dunkin donut in the morning, so I'm sure they'll be OK if an eBiker passes them going 20mph faster. I'd much rather be hit by another biker than a car, so I think your dooms day on differential of speeds for bikers is a bit over-stated.

I believe studies kind of show that drivers tend to drive at speeds interpreted to be safe. Why did we raise the interstate speeds from 55mph to 75mph (I remember how this frightened a lot of conservatives)? It's because it was making virutally 90% of us law breakers on a daily basis. It was a stupid speed limit set because OPEC was controlling our gas prices.

I'm sure the Hensinki study included data on safety but not on under all situations. Drive across Kansas as 40kph and try not to fall asleep...did they factor trips like that in or were they just assessing dense urban areas? I think you cherry picked a study.....

 

[Ken M]

Regarding your number 2), there are problems:

1. Going above 30 mph is very energy intensive. Your range will be awful unless you have so many batteries that the bike gets heavy and then your pedaling will be less effective. A velomobiles is the ultimate solution for that.
2. Roads are not quality enough to sustain higher speeds that safely on a bike, though wider tires help. Unless you have a major suspension but then it's the weight problem of #1. 30 mph = 44 feet per second. Scanning 44 feet per second of road is already a feat.
3. 35 mph is now 20 mph faster then unpowered cyclists. Too much speed difference when you're sharing lanes with them.

To be clear, I think the power of the moped designation is much more important than the speed, to give more acceleration and to sustain speed on hills.

I strongly agree about human scale transportation, but the solution is lower speed limits in cities across the board - say 25-30 mph on boulevards/arterials, 15-20 mph on residential. With smart speed limiters that actually make that happen. The EU transport safety group is now proposing such a technology which I think will be revolutionary. Intelligent speed assist. I'm about to get rid of my car but I wish I could flick a switch to always obey the speed limit automatically (except maybe on a controlled access highway).

Helsinki has found that traffic speed is optimal at 30-40 kph.

Oops...I forgot to comment on the suggestion of the Velomobiles. They are effective and efficient but in most cities they require a car parking spot and most likely registration and insurance. That in my book just hammers much of their potential. As soon as DMV and insurance companies get involved the cost advantage of effective transportation is certain to be diminished. DMVers are certain to concerned about cash flow into their early pensions and insurance executives will still want their big bonuses for doing nothing of value for society.

 

[Ken M]

This video is worth watching if you feel a 35mph pedelec is not safe and/or not a good idea. Keep in mind this Juiced cycles bike has 26 x 4.0 fat knobby tires at 25psi (I would not consider these even marginally good tires for a fast ebike - noisy, poor handling, and appreciable rolling resistance compared to many other tire options). This isn't a super hyped up ebike either at 1000W but this commute is essentially flat which is a big factor in the sustained high speeds (that and the rider is Tora who was an Olympic athlete that is probably a fairly powerful rider.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

There is no street-legal vehicle available in NC that fits the niche between a speed pedelec and a motorcycle. Those mopeds/scooters that a lot of folks ride are restricted to 30 mph here, and I can do that on my CrossCurrent S. Ebikes are restricted to 750 watt motors, and are only allowed to go 20mph throttle-only; there's no upper limit on speed pedelecs, legally speaking, but practically there's a limit to how fast we can pedal a street-legal bike even at max pedal assist (I've topped out at 34 mph going downhill.)

As much as I favor sustainable energy solutions, if I were looking for something to fill the niche between my CCS and my motorcycle, I'd go for a 150cc scooter. Those things get gas mileage in the ~70mph range, are fully suspended, can legally be registered as motorcycles in NC, can usually get up to 60 mph so you can keep up with traffic, and don't cost a whole lot -- prices have really dropped, you can get one for under $1K now.

 

[Asher]

Ken, thoughtful responses

"Non-ebikers typically have to deal with 5000 SUV drivers flying by them going 25mph+ past them while they are texting or gourging down a dunkin donut in the morning, so I'm sure they'll be OK if an eBiker passes them going 20mph faster. I'd much rather be hit by another biker than a car, so I think your dooms day on differential of speeds for bikers is a bit over-stated. "

That's not really the relevant comparison, because an extra 5 mph on an ebike, which will make many people feel dangerous already, is not going to be the thing that gets SUV donut dunkers out of their car.

Re ebikes now vs the future, the rate of battery improvement is fairly slow, so until we see something ready to deploy, a conservative prediction is the most sound. Trying to beat back higher aero resistance with ever-bigger batteries just leads to rapidly diminishing returns, and heavier vehicles in the bike lane, which creates more danger. For now, the Luna Apex's ~1500 whr battery is a plausible upper limit for the next 2-3 years. It uses the latest, 21700 cells.

As for road quality and fear, I also have a suspension seatpost, plus a steel front fork. I think my risk tolerance is pretty high - I ride a bike all around LA when most are too scared to. And even I'm a little leery of going 30+ mph here - so I think the appetite to go that fast or faster is relatively rare, on an ebike. That said, if I had a road that I personally know is smooth, free of regular riders, and I've got 2.8" wide tires on wide rims, I'd go 30 mph a lot more consistently. I was doing 27 on flats last night, and routinely do 30 mph down hills I know well.

As for velomobiles, the regulations can be changed, but I think the promise of a velomobile is mostly for intercity travel - the thing that makes a velomobile so great is a speed so high that it doesn't really make sense in the city (eg the Helsinki point), when an ebike will do. That said, the velomobile will surely appeal to some people that an ebike wouldn't.

Helsinki report: http://nvfnorden.org/lisalib/getfile.aspx?itemid=1435

There is no street-legal vehicle available in NC that fits the niche between a speed pedelec and a motorcycle. Those mopeds/scooters that a lot of folks ride are restricted to 30 mph here, and I can do that on my CrossCurrent S. Ebikes are restricted to 750 watt motors, and are only allowed to go 20mph throttle-only; there's no upper limit on speed pedelecs, legally speaking, but practically there's a limit to how fast we can pedal a street-legal bike even at max pedal assist (I've topped out at 34 mph going downhill.)

As much as I favor sustainable energy solutions, if I were looking for something to fill the niche between my CCS and my motorcycle, I'd go for a 150cc scooter. Those things get gas mileage in the ~70mph range, are fully suspended, can legally be registered as motorcycles in NC, can usually get up to 60 mph so you can keep up with traffic, and don't cost a whole lot -- prices have really dropped, you can get one for under $1K now.

I don't see how a speed pedelec is legal in NC either. "Electric Assisted Bicycle. - A bicycle with two or three wheels that is equipped with a seat or saddle for use by the rider, fully operable pedals for human propulsion, and an electric motor of no more than 750 watts, whose maximum speed on a level surface when powered solely by such a motor is no greater than 20 miles per hour. " https://www.ncleg.net/gascripts/statutes/statutelookup.pl?statute=20-4.01

Apparently, NC is a state that defines a moped in terms of engine displacement (under 50 cc), so I don't think an ebike could ever qualify as a moped. My idea then doesn't apply to NC, at least under its current regulations. If NC had a moped law like California, your Juiced bike would be a moped.

Just to reiterate, the point of making a moped under legal definitions is to offer a bike that has enough power to sustain 28 or 30 mph speeds under more circumstances (hills, wind). Juiced clearly thinks demand is there for more powerful bikes, but these bikes aren't street legal unless they get classed as a moped.

As ebike sales grow, I think there will be increasing scrutiny over legal compliance. Aftermarket tuning is one thing, but a bike coming out of the manufacturer already non-compliant (especially as the 3 class ebike rule system becomes the law everywhere in the US) is kinda asking for trouble. The point of the moped is to offer a little more speed and a lot more power, in a way that's legal and not just flouting the law. (Does Juiced have legal counsel ?)

Legally, if you want more than 30 mph, you're going to have to do a lot more regulatory compliance. And as I referenced above, speeds 30-60 mph are a crappy no man's land - suboptimal for the city, too slow for a controlled access highway. Gogoro makes an interesting scooter, but it's vastly different than a speed pedelec.

 

[Ken M]

The Gogoro escooter is appealing but they don't sell it outright - you have to purchase the battery usage because they want to control the energy like a consumable with high margin. I'd like to own a 35mph eBike and a 45mph capable eScooter - I'd ride the bike more of the time but when I needed to get someplace faster and had to be in the mix with traffic I would ride the scooter (never on the highway but 45mph is fast enough for virtually all city roads and streets).

Everyone that rides an ebike should read about power rating electrical motors. The federal limit of 750W is nebulous at best because nothing about control system or conditions are stated other than it must have operable pedals (which is not exactly a rigid term itself). I suggest everyone read the technical information on Grin Technologies website to understand why the federal 750W limit is not a viable legislative limit. Essentially multi-phase brushless motors can be stated to be higher or lower than that simply because test conditions can be set-up is so many ways.

I believe the definition of a bike is met so long as the rider is still engaged in providing some of the propulsion power, so it boils down to a speed that allows a viable cadence and there are mainstream front and rear chain rings that allow sub-100rpm cadence speeds at 35mph. Much faster pushes the drive system gear ratios into bizarre territory (like 70T front chain rings).

I have a NIU escooter that has a Bosch 1800-2400W hub motor that can sustain about 35 even up some hills but I prefer to ride an eBike as when I'm on the escooter I have to be in traffic with cars such that I feel the top speed is problematic and unsafe.

I believe a 52V/40A drive system with a nominally rated 750W direct drive hub motor (1800-2200W peak with thermal protection) on an appropriately configured non-suspension eBike is totally doable as a mainstream product. It's doesn't mean that everyone is going to be pedaling this around at speeds over 30 most of the time. The tops speeds will be utilized by good riders on longer commutes where it makes sense and also allows high sustain speeds up hills. This isn't a MOPED because the rider should be required to still be pedaling. I don't think this is some scary ebike that should require registration, licensing, and insurance because I can hit 35mph on my road bike that has NO ASSIST....I just can't sustain it for for more than about 50 yards.

I think people need to stop classifying what an ebike is by the top assist speed. It's hurting the chances the technology will be widely adopted. Not that I want to deal with a lot of other riders in my way, but I do want a better world.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

I don't see how a speed pedelec is legal in NC either. "Electric Assisted Bicycle. - A bicycle with two or three wheels that is equipped with a seat or saddle for use by the rider, fully operable pedals for human propulsion, and an electric motor of no more than 750 watts, whose maximum speed on a level surface when powered solely by such a motor is no greater than 20 miles per hour. " https://www.ncleg.net/gascripts/statutes/statutelookup.pl?statute=20-4.01

Apparently, NC is a state that defines a moped in terms of engine displacement (under 50 cc), so I don't think an ebike could ever qualify as a moped. My idea then doesn't apply to NC, at least under its current regulations. If NC had a moped law like California, your Juiced bike would be a moped.

I keep trying to convince people to read this more carefully. "Maximum speed on a level surfaced when powered solely by such a motor." That means no human power. A speed pedelec is not powered solely by such a motor. My CCS can't go over 20 mph on throttle alone, it takes human power plus pedal assist to get above that.

 

[Ken M]

Bruce, Good response. That's why I keep emphasizing a speed "pedelec" thinking everyone understands that I'm not talking about going fast under throttle alone.

This is really a very simple issue if people would really think for second. Can an average rider achieve and sustain a speed of 35mph on a bike under some conditions on a traditional bike. The answer is YES (when you consider an aero trike the potential speed is even higher without any assist. So what we are suggesting is an eBike that just provides assist to a speed that most riders have and can achieve on a non-ebike such that the result is just higher average speeds, not really a higher top speed.

I agree with those that say that under motor power alone (ie a throttle-only controlled system is propelling the vehicle/bike/scooter) maybe the assist speed limit should be limited to 20mph to be classified the same as a traditional bike. I think even that could be debated but at least a regulation like that would allow people that are disabled to continue to ride their motorized wheel chairs on sidewalks, etc.

 

[Asher]

Ah sorry my mistake. I didn't see any other provisions, so I misunderstood, was my first time seeing NC law.

Your road bike Ken is not a relevant comparison, because there's a world of difference between the rare, highly trained guy with highly specialized gear that can do 35 mph for literally three seconds, and Joe Blow doing it for as long as the battery will last in regular clothes.

"I believe a 52V/40A drive system with a nominally rated 750W direct drive hub motor (1800-2200W peak with thermal protection) "

There isn't any stipulation in the regs about peak vs sustained power, is there? Seems like a huge grey area. Even so, bikes may run afoul of it. The new Stromer has an 800 W motor. European s pedelecs have a power limit of 4 kw.

 

[Ken M]

A nominal motor rating can essentially be anything the manufacturer wants to say it is. You will see some high performance moped motors with ratings at over 10,000 watts but that is typically closer to a peak rating than a nominal rating.

You again are arguing that a rider hitting 35mph is somehow different than someone sustaining that speed. I think that is just a very thin line of distinction. Read up on how fast good riders are on aero recumbent bikes - a professional averaged over 55mph for an hour. So by your standards he should not even be allowed to ride a recumbent anywhere in the US unless he is a registered moped-man. Many riders are sustaining over 30mph on aero recumbents, so should the recumbents or the riders be banned in your opinion or called mopeds even if they don't have a motor at all.

Note: I think the new human powered speed record is now at about 90mph. Oh my god, let's make all bikes illegal because that 70mph faster then you think they should be capable of going.

Stop being a mamby-pamby...think this through and have some facts to back your position if you still think anything faster than 20mph is a moped. The current legislation is a joke and is hurting the adoption of better transportation solutions.

 

[Ken M]

What is really nutty is that the state regulations are all over the place such that many common eBike models are legally sold in one state and illegally sold in another. Makes no sense. How many people think a state like Mississippi has representatives with adequate knowledge of ebikes to enact rational legislation? Sadly the 3 class system being pushed by people for bikes is so poorly thought out that it may as well have been written in Mississippi (it's really about protecting the mid-drive motor manufacturers because they have a performance advantage at the slower speeds. I have no clue how they expect the police to regulate the speed capability of the bike when it will be nearly impossible for them to determine if it was the assist or the rider than enabled the speed they were traveling. Just set speed limits on the path and roads for bikes, classify a throttle only bike going faster than 20mph a moped and allow a bike with an element of human power being transmitted via pedals to remain a bike regardless of the top assist speed (for all practical purposes that speed will never be impractically high because of safety and technical reasons (like the cadence limits with rational gearing).