California DMV getting tough on e-motos?

[Jeremy McCreary]

We were discussing equivalent power motorbikes; 125 cc. None of them are loud.

Can't speak to scooter noise, and haven't thought much about scooters since our last trip abroad (where they're everywhere). But that video sure makes scooters look like a fun way to get around a city!

Well, not more fun than ebikes, of course. Wonder how easy they are to steal?

 

[PedalUma]

Parents are buying them for their High School boys. Who then ride them full speed on multi-use paths. One came in last week with no brakes. There was nothing left of the pads. No parental monitoring of the safety of their kids or other community members. My aunt was struck by a bike and died in a New Hampshire park. It wasn't even electric. It is the parents who need to be held to account with civil and criminal actions. When mom looses her license, goes to county jail, pays fines, and gets sued, and can't afford a second mortgage to pay for it, then the kids go into CPS, people will wake up.

 

[J.R.]

Can't speak to scooter noise, and haven't thought much about scooters since our last trip abroad (where they're everywhere). But that video sure makes scooters look like a fun way to get around a city!

Well, not more fun than ebikes, of course. Wonder how easy they are to steal?

I have only rented scooters while on vacation. The one in the video is a Suzuki, 65 MPH and gets 148 MPG. Very efficient vehicle and only costs $3100. Insurance is very cheap as well. Similarly powered ebikes can't compete on any level. Where I see the line of demarcation is the type of ebikes we ride. Tiny little assist motor, fairly lightweight and ride like bicycles. They mix well with bicycles and cycling infrastructure. Motorbikes, ICE or li-ion can't compete in the same space, but they were never intended to.

 

[AvalancheRun]

We were discussing equivalent power motorbikes; 125 cc. None of them are loud.

That video has significant noise reduction...

125 cc is one of the smallest classes of motorcycle. These are not the bikes most people are riding. Even a Honda Grom makes a ton of noise.
"Most motorcycles" was what I said in the first post.

Please understand that I am not arguing for argument's sake. I see a motorcyclist flippantly dismissing noise complaints and calling "noise pollution" fake and pseudoscience as an opportunity for conversation. Noise pollution is one of the worst parts about living in a city. Evidence shows that it causes high levels of annoyance and health risks.

The emissions argument is also problematic. Motorcycles (even 4 stroke) might emit less CO2 than cars, but emit more smog emissions such as hydrocarbons, NOx, and carbon monoxide.

Edit: Motorcyclists laughing at evidence of negative externalities just proves my point and shows their character.

 

[J.R.]

That video has significant noise reduction...

125 cc is one of the smallest classes of motorcycle. These are not the bikes most people are riding. Even a Honda Grom makes a ton of noise.
"Most motorcycles" was what I said in the first post.

Please understand that I am not arguing for argument's sake. I see a motorcyclist flippantly dismissing noise complaints and calling "noise pollution" fake and pseudoscience as an opportunity for conversation. Noise pollution is one of the worst parts about living in a city. Evidence shows that it causes high levels of annoyance and health risks.

The emissions argument is also problematic. Motorcycles (even 4 stroke) might emit less CO2, but emit more smog emissions such as hydrocarbons, NOx, and carbon monoxide.

You are arguing. The Honda Grom is a fuel injected sport motorcycle, designed to be raced in class. You have tried to turn this into something personal. Very typical of every argument made online.

I see a motorcyclist flippantly dismissing noise complaints and calling "noise pollution" fake and pseudoscience as an opportunity for conversation.

Is the bias perhaps because you ride motorcycles?

Days go by and you can't let it go. The comparison made was about scooter, moped and low power motorbikes, not sport bikes built for power and speed. I haven't been flippant or insulting to you. I haven't tried to distort your words by claiming a personal bias. Live and let live. I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

Maybe go for a ride and enjoy!

 

[AvalancheRun]

You are arguing. The Honda Grom is a fuel injected sport motorcycle, designed to be raced in class. You have tried to turn this into something personal. Very typical of every argument made online.




Days go by and you can't let it go. The comparison made was about scooter, moped and low power motorbikes, not sport bikes built for power and speed. I haven't been flippant or insulting to you. I haven't tried to distort your words by claiming a personal bias. Live and let live. I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

Maybe go for a ride and enjoy!

If you're going to claim noise pollution doesn't exist, expect people to push back. Same goes for calling the negative effects of noise "pseudoscience" when every reputable medical organization claims it has negative effects on communities.

I have ridden friend's scooters and motorcycles, they all make a lot of noise. Fun for the rider, sure, but annoying for everyone else. Live and let live -- 100%! -- as long as your way of living doesn't infringe upon the rights and well-being of others.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I have listened to the 125 cc light motorcycle of one of my brothers and it was far from anything called "quiet"

 

[Kayakguy]

Noise has long been accepted as a form of pollution. It actually does not have to be that extreme to have many negative health implications.

As an audio engineer, I disagree completely with OSHA because they are not based in science. OSHA is about minimizing monetary risk, not protecting hearing health. The CDC, EPA, NIOSH, WHO, etc. all have MUCH more conservative acceptable numbers.

Harvard Medicine: Noise pollution is more than a nuisance. It's a health risk

Effects of Motorcycle Noise on Annoyance—A Cross-Sectional Study in the Alps​

"Noise is a relevant problem to the public and to individuals. Noise pollution in Europe is regarded as a serious environmental problem [1], in Austria it is even the prior-ranked problem concerning environment conditions [2]. Noise has important health-related consequences such as ischemic heart disease, cognitive impairment in children, sleep disturbance, tinnitus and annoyance [3]. The effects of annoyance are particularly high in connection with traffic noise"

I think we can agree that motorcycles in many ways are a better alternative to cars, but noise is a serious externality that will not be fixed until electrification. The e-motorcycle field is unfortunately not very mature compared to electric cars.

For several years, I rode a Suzuki 400 cc scooter. It was quick, could do 80 on the freeway, and not at all noisy. I loved the continuously variable transmission. And it got terrific gas mileage. My impression while on the freeway was that drivers made a point to give me a wide berth. I imagined them thinking, "That guy looks so vulnerable, I don't even want to get near him." I enjoyed the scoot, but aged out from that kind of riding; hence, the ebike.

 

[J.R.]

 

[Slaphappygamer]

Surron sideshow when?

 

[Elkman]

More than half the area of U.S. cities is taken up for the movement, parking, and storage of cars and trucks. That entails a massive subsidy of motorists by everyone.

Safety is in part a matter of expectations and also of speed differentials. A pedestrian ambling along at 1-2 mph needs to be aware of bicyclists moving at 10-15 mph and that is seldom the case. Most people walking anywhere have zero observational awareness of what is happening around them. On designated bike paths it is common to see people standing in the center of the path while talking on their phone.

The root of the problem is incompetent city and county "planners" that put pedestrians, bicyclists, horses, scooters, and motorcycles on the same paths and trails. In the USA in the 1960's the USFS opened up the trails to motorcyclists and vandalism became a serious problem as well as the noise pollution from the dirt bikes.

 

[Ken Shopken]

Equivalent sized gas-powered motorcycles and scooters are some of the most efficient vehicles on the road. The have the safety equipment mandated by the USDOT; they take up little space in parking lots and roads, and they get 100 miles to a gallon. They pay gas tax and registration, that help pay for roads. They have insurance to pay for damage to others. Take a look at all the cars and trucks on the roadway with one occupant, getting 15 to 30 MPG. The amount of space dedicated to their parking. The amount of pollution!

Electric motor scooters pay no road taxes, they ride wherever they want and have no insurance or safety equipment. Even a gas moped has to meet safety standards of USDOT, If e-motorbikes had to meet the same standards, they would cost twice as much.

2020 Honda C125 Super Cub delivered 134mpg average for 11 vehicles! https://www.fuelly.com/motorcycle/honda/c125a_super_cub/2020

 

[m@Robertson]

People in CA have been registering Sur Rons as mopeds since they first came out. It works great. Its a one-time fee that is cheap. You get a plate from the state. Insurance is cheap.

CA law allows a moped to have footpegs and no pedals thru an exception where if its exclusively electric-powered it qualifies as a CA moped.