Why is no one calling Out Criminal Scam Bosch was involved in with Nikola motors

Bill R

Member
Why is no one calling out the Criminal Scam Bosch was involved in with Nikola motors They said Nikola had a real fuel cell truck that would be a real product but this was not true the truck Bosch made for them cost hundreds of millions and will never be a Truck that can be sold a real market price Bosch helped scam many investors No one should ever buy a Bosch Ebike ever again.
 
Why is no one calling out the Criminal Scam Bosch was involved in with Nikola motors They said Nikola had a real fuel cell truck that would be a real product but this was not true the truck Bosch made for them cost hundreds of millions and will never be a Truck that can be sold a real market price Bosch helped scam many investors No one should ever buy a Bosch Ebike ever again.
So? The auto industry has been doing that sort of thing for decades.
 
Glad at least one person hasn't thrown in the towel on morality.

The whole Nikola motors charade was a concerted effort to muddy the waters and introduce friction into the process of bringing battery electric trucks into the fleet. Slowing the inevitable for even a short time pays handsome dividends to the constellation of status quo carbon-based fuels legacy companies.

Wasn't Bosch also tangentially or perhaps more than tangentially involved in the VW diesel scandal?

Anyone with basic knowledge of diesel automotive chemistry could see that something was clearly wrong as no additives were required in a cheap car, yet the story went that very few knew of the crimes and a "lucky" find by an auto lab in West Virginia brought it to light.

I'd be more depressed about it if it wasn't all so tragicomic.
 
Can we have a list of completely 100% honorable & moralistic global companies here? It shouldn't take up much space in this thread.
 
Why is no one calling out the Criminal Scam Bosch was involved in with Nikola motors They said Nikola had a real fuel cell truck that would be a real product but this was not true the truck Bosch made for them cost hundreds of millions and will never be a Truck that can be sold a real market price Bosch helped scam many investors No one should ever buy a Bosch Ebike ever again.
It's a fair point... Bosch and Nikola have certainly not behaved ethically in the automotive market.

Nikola (NKLA) founder Trevor Milton is out of the company after deception exposed (U) - Electrek
 
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None of the credible people in the space think highly of Nikola motors. They used the name of GM and Bosch to get some credibility. As an active researcher in the energy research field, I have friends working in fuel cell technology both at Toyota R&D and Nissan. They think Nikola motors was just another Enron-like operation.

The hydrogen fuel cell technology itself has promising prospects for long-range trucking, and it is why the Department of Energy is sponsoring major programs in that field.

Nikola courted companies like Bosch and investors early on, and the folks at Bosch tried to help. Once they realized that Nikola was embroiled in so much controversy and many slimy things are going on, both GM and Bosch reduced their stake in the Nikola Corporation.


I agree that involvement in the VW Dieselgate scam was a dark spot on Bosch's resume, and it was a very nasty episode. No question about that. Lots of heads rolled after that incident.

The E-bike division of Bosch is a separate division from their automotive component division.
The people are professional, and they treat their OEM customers well. Go to any other forum other than EBR and see if any of the representatives from Yamaha or Shimano or Brose answer end-users' questions like the Bosch USA folks have done?

My relationship with Bosch is one of professional stance. You can also look at it this way. If you are an entrepreneur, you want to work with the best and maximize your returns. Why would I intentionally want to lose my hard-earned money or reputation?

Also, folks should realize that every single car/truck sold in America, whether it is BMW or GM or FORD or Chevy, all use CAN-bus technology invented by Bosch. There are hundreds of components invented by Bosch that are used by a vast majority of the automakers. It is impossible to find a car that doesn't use any Bosch components. If they really want to take a hard stance, they should immediately stop driving cars that run on CAN bus technology ;)
 
The people are professional, and they treat their OEM customers well. Go to any other forum other than EBR and see if any of the representatives from Yamaha or Shimano or Brose answer end-users' questions like the Bosch USA folks have done?

That's easy to do when you have 70% market share, and at least that of total industry profits, among motor makers. Bosch has an incredible oligopoly that entepreneurs envy... And *should* repulse the civic minded, but evidently the EU has no problem enforcing protectionist laws that overwhelmingly favor a single company, in this industry. And so you have those standbys of low competition, high prices (spare batteries at $1600 per kwh vs as little as ~$550 elsewhere), customer lock-in, proprietary closed systems without independent repair options.
 
That's easy to do when you have 70% market share, and at least that of total industry profits, among motor makers. Bosch has an incredible oligopoly that entepreneurs envy

The same thing can be said about the following:
  1. Amazon controls over 50% of the e-commerce and absolutely obliterates any small players that try to compete against Amazon. Squishes them out of the market like a cockraoch (like Kevin O'leary says).
    They treat their customers well but competitors, exact opposite. Does it mean you and I will stop using Amazon prime?

  2. Intel controls over 60% of the CPU market:
    Does it mean people will stop using Intel CPU in their phone and PCs ?


  3. Apple charges a lot more than other phone manufacturers and controls a large chunk of the market.
    Does it mean people will stop using Apple products?
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That is the nature of the technology, there are patents, licences, agreements and then profits to be made using that.
These companies employ hundreds of thousands of employees and feed their families.
When it comes to E-bikes, Bosch makes a decent product and support their customers well. They stand behind their product.
 
That is the nature of the technology, there are patents, licences, agreements and then profits to be made using that.
These companies employ hundreds of thousands of employees and feed their families.
When it comes to E-bikes, Bosch makes a decent product and support their customers well. They stand behind their product.

The nature of technology, as a term, insinuates something absolute, inevitable, which you immediately negate by admitting it's propped up by a thicket of legalized monopolies, aka intellectual property. That's not the nature of technology, that is technology as we've chosen to foster it. There are other paths as well, that give more power to customers, and independent mechanics.

Wikipedia employs relatively few people, and perhaps even destroyed more jobs than it created, demolishing as it did Britannica et al with overwhelmingly free labor. So Wikipedia is bad? There is more to the public interest than just jobs created. There are issues of access, for one - how many people can afford this socially valuable product? If I destroyed air quality and then sold lots of air purifiers that would generate jobs too, but destroy actual human freedom and wealth.

It's not so much that Bosch is doing something malevolent, but that hyperconcentration has led to worse outcomes for EU consumers in the form of higher prices, low repairability, and proprietary systems. Which also means more electronic waste and less salvageable assets when official dealers refuse to repair your old Bosch units, or at exorbitant prices, as Apple does. It's not like Shimano drivetrain parts, where despite a near duopoly Shimano parts still offer great value. Bosch sells batteries at 2-3x that of rivals, and they don't offer commensurate value.

I am saying removing the protectionism that has built Bosch's wealth at the expense of nonEuropean competition would benefit consumers, without threatening innovation; Bosch's biggest battery is only 625 wh, and that came out only a year ago! Ensuring Bosch et al make their parts repairable by independent mechanics, as has been done by various laws around the world, would also help.

The example of Amazon is not a great one, because Amazon prices are about as low as any you'll find. That is not true of Bosch.


Why does it have that 70% market share?

EU tariffs are a big part of it. Beyond that, I don't know, but there may be reasons that aren't public. In the US where tariffs are much lower, Bosch market share is far smaller.
 
The example of Amazon is not a great one, because Amazon prices are about as low as any you'll find. That is not true of Bosch.
Compare the prices on exact same items from Aliexpress/Alibaba to Amazon, and guess where Amazon get them from.
 
I am saying removing the protectionism that has built Bosch's wealth at the expense of nonEuropean competition would benefit consumers, without threatening innovation; Bosch's biggest battery is only 625 wh, and that came out only a year ago!
Yet their range far exceeds most “non-proprietary” systems with much less weight.......
 
Compare the prices on exact same items from Aliexpress/Alibaba to Amazon, and guess where Amazon get them from.
I meant Amazon prices in general, not ebike wares.
Yet their range far exceeds most “non-proprietary” systems with much less weight.......
Can you point me to a good article discussing that? Given that were talking about Europe here, where speed pedelecs are fairly rare (Switzerland excepted), as are throttles, the difference could be explained by a 15 mph top speed and pedal assist only. I'd routinely see people say they get 12-15 wh/mi on ebikes, but I got 9 wh/MI on a Juiced CCS going 22-24 mph on flats, and was 190 lbs.
 
That's easy to do when you have 70% market share, and at least that of total industry profits, among motor makers. Bosch has an incredible oligopoly that entepreneurs envy... And *should* repulse the civic minded, but evidently the EU has no problem enforcing protectionist laws that overwhelmingly favor a single company, in this industry. And so you have those standbys of low competition, high prices (spare batteries at $1600 per kwh vs as little as ~$550 elsewhere), customer lock-in, proprietary closed systems without independent repair options.
Bosch is a huge conglomerate; if you want to call it an oligopoly that’s on you. The company has been around over 100 years and they’ve done well and patented some very important technologies. They’ve also had major scandals and paid huge fines, what 100 year old company hasn’t?

Bosch has plenty of competition (unlike Google,Facebook,Amazon) so it’s not a monopoly if that’s what you were implying.
 
Bosch is a huge conglomerate; if you want to call it an oligopoly that’s on you. The company has been around over 100 years and they’ve done well and patented some very important technologies. They’ve also had major scandals and paid huge fines, what 100 year old company hasn’t?

Bosch has plenty of competition (unlike Google,Facebook,Amazon) so it’s not a monopoly if that’s what you were implying.
That's not 'on me'. By standard definitions, Bosch motors are definitely an oligopoly, in the EU market. Whether it constitutes a monopoly, depends on the definition used.

Bosch is a lot closer to monopoly than tech giants, in pure market share % terms, though its perch is far more tenuous, especially if the EU discarded its protectionist barriers.
 

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That's not 'on me'. By standard definitions, Bosch motors are definitely an oligopoly, in the EU market. Whether it constitutes a monopoly, depends on the definition used.

Bosch is a lot closer to monopoly than tech giants, in pure market share % terms, though its perch is far more tenuous, especially if the EU discarded its protectionist barriers.
You’re hysterically wrong, it’s impossible for Bosch to be a monopoly since it is 92% owned by a non-profit organization. Bosch doesn’t fit under the standard definition you provided so it is on you.

The Robert Bosch Foundation is a registered non-profit that owns 92% of ALL of Bosch and its subsidiaries. Essentially 8% of everything Bosch is for profit the rest is all given away via the aforementioned non-profit.

That’s something FANG
(Facebook,Amazon,Netflix,Google) does not and will ever do.
 
The OP still around? This looks /Off topic/. Again.

We live in a world, where if you want to slander someone, you just use social media all the while keeping your personal details away.
Now, the person on the other end has to come, defend and expend time and energy in the process. Some people extract some pleasure in that process. It is the unfortunate reality we live in.
 
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