Why do the big bike brands (almost) never use hub motors?

[Stefan Mikes]

Take Van Moof for example: Hub motors.

So you say Van Moof is as large a company as Giant, Specialized, Trek, or Cannondale?

Four largest e-bike brands don't offer any hub motor e-bike. If we are talking of a less demanding market and with ten times less sales volume than Europe, that would be the Unites States. (Ever heard of Canyon, Cube, Haibike, Riese & Muller, all of them being German companies? Spanish Orbea? Interestingly, some companies as Orbea offer low powered, extremely lightweight e-bikes equipped with Ebikemotion x35 hub drive system by Mahle, as these cannot produce anything like Specialized SL lightweight mid-drive motor).

It is funny to mention the Netherlands. Think of European highly populated countries with high mountains. Think of Germany, France, Spain, Italy. Ever heard of Tour de France or Giro de Italia?

 

[m@Robertson]

So you say Van Moof is as large a company as Giant, Specialized, Trek, or Cannondale?

Four largest e-bike brands don't offer any hub motor e-bike. If we are talking of a less demanding market and with ten times less sales volume than Europe, that would be the Unites States. (Ever heard of Canyon, Cube, Haibike, Riese & Muller, all of them being German companies? Spanish Orbea? Interestingly, some companies as Orbea offer low powered, extremely lightweight e-bikes equipped with Ebikemotion x35 hub drive system by Mahle, as these cannot produce anything like Specialized SL lightweight mid-drive motor).

It is funny to mention the Netherlands. Think of European highly populated countries with high mountains. Think of Germany, France, Spain, Italy. Ever heard of Tour de France or Giro de Italia?

I never made any sort of comparison of VM to any other company. I could have also mentioned Stromer but since they are not HQ'd in a low country the example of a mainstream company using hub motors wasn't so obvious. Beyond that, you don't seem to be making any sort of point here.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I could have also mentioned Stromer but since they are not HQ'd in a low country the example of a mainstream company using hub motors wasn't so obvious.

Stromer is not any big brand. If we talk pretty big brands (and located in the Low Countries), that would be Gazelle with their mid-drive motor e-bikes. (The motors are of German brand and made in Hungary).
Switzerland is 10 times smaller than Germany in terms of population. Interestingly, Specialized Turbo Division (engineering, design, etc for Spec e-bikes) is located in Switzerland. It is explained by the fact Switzerland is a montane country, the best for testing e-MTBs.

 

[m@Robertson]

"So its a less demanding performance market, and its an order of magnitude larger than the US in terms of prospective customers. Is this all that relevant to US ebike cycling needs and wants?"

Given the fact that the #1 selling ebike company in the US is RAD that only sells hub motor bikes, with throttles, that has also launched a plethora of other spin offs of the same ilk I am failing to see your point?

In getting more folks out of cars, or just creating more sustainable affordable transportation for all acting on a global scale, no matter what terrain or circumstance, should be the end goal and as I keep saying hub drives and mid drives both will play their part.

Here again I think culture is playing a role, albeit a different one. Rad bikes are not popular because they are of top quality. In fact they are pretty cheaply made.

If you've followed them from their early days, Rad's selling point was their bikes were cheap and their customer service was excellent, which was a unique and potent combination coming in on the heels of Sondors knocking the stilts off of the ebike market price model. This was before Specialized jumped in, among others. Rad sold a cheapass bike, but for the American market, like the Sondors, it was good enough. And they sold it to you direct, so the price was $1200-1500 and not $4500+. AND they offered service and support in a world where there were almost no players period in the cheap ebike market, let alone players who stood behind their product. We forget that nowadays in a world with a zillion low end sellers (and counting). Bottom line is Rad didn't get where they are by selling superior products. They did it with adequate products and superior service, in a market whose buyers weren't too interested in the mechanical details (in those early days, darn near zero American cyclists would be caught dead on an ebike... ebike riders were lepers. Beneath contempt. In the USA ebike riders were nearly all new to cycling and this helped Rad as well.

My point was that just because Yamaha was going into hubs, that doesn't mean there is some sort of hub ebike renaissance on the way. In much of the EU, due to how people ride, the conditions they ride in... a hub motor is ideal. My hub commuter is ideal where I ride it. Flat land. City streets. No brains required since the motor powers thru the axle and I can leave the gears alone. But if I try and get into serious hills... its out of its league fast.

@AHicks has said this repeatedly, as have a few others, myself included. Each platform is good in its own way. Each has strengths and weaknesses. You can tell the people who know this from experience riding both vs. the people who are invested in their argument based on the bike they own.

 

[Johnny]

With the speed limits in EU one can increase the reduction ratio and make a bike with a small hub motor which will climb well. This will limit the max speed but it is limited by law anyways. I guess that is what Van Moof did and people seem to be happy with its climbing ability.

 

[JRA]

Mr. M I guess you just paint with a thinner brush than myself....Nothing in that article says anything about a renaissance to me but strictly a business decision by some big players which is the subject of this thread I thought. I do suppose that there might be a pretty big market for hub motors in India however that will also benefit from the collaboration.

As far as climbing steep hills I have alot of miles on my front hub bikes with DD motors doing just that. On both pavement and gravel. I have only blown one controller and that was simply me being a knucklehead and trying to use more motor than my legs and gearing could support on a very hot day and a very steep road. Lesson learned for sure as it was a 16mile pedal home. But otherwise I find that 350w of assist and proper gearing while pedaling at a 80-90rpm cadence, without PAS, will get me up and over just about everything. I do run Statorade and have a high temp cutoff though for just in case. I use a torque assist mid drive for primarily off road use however. For primarily road use I will take a hub, front actually, every time. With a throttle and no PAS please.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

With the speed limits in EU one can increase the reduction ratio and make a bike with a small hub motor which will climb well. This will limit the max speed but it is limited by law anyways. I guess that is what Van Moof did and people seem to be happy with its climbing ability.

I suggest you come to Europe (of course I mean one of the mountainous countries) and try climbing with the 250 W hub-drive motor here. It is not only 25 km/h but also 250 W nominal restriction here. Van Moof has been illegal in the EU: Once the police started punishing Van Moof owners, the company had to conform at the risk of losing their business and reduced both the speed and power for Europe.

Van Moof is a very minor player in the market. Could you comment on the Big Three (Giant, Specialized, Trek) with the inclusion of Cannondale as the fourth largest world player? Or, take Haibike, the biggest German e-bike manufacturer?

Finally, let me reiterate: The Netherlands is not the country that sets the example for e-bikes in Europe. Although there are many bikes there, people in Holland travel over short distances on the flat, riding at very moderate speed, almost exclusively using bike paths, and you don't need an e-bike for that. The Netherlands is 17 million of people. The country that really sets the example for Europe is Germany, with the population of 80 million, and 2 million e-bikes sold in 2020 (the number of traditional bikes sold in the same year was 3 million). Yes, 547,000 e-bikes were sold in the Low Countries in 2020 but I am sure it was not Van Moof... Have you heard of Gazelle, for instance?

In 2019, the number of e-bikes sold in Europe was 3 million, with 1.36 million of them sold in Germany alone.

 

[Johnny]

I suggest you come to Europe (of course I mean one of the mountainous countries) and try climbing with the 250 W hub-drive motor here. It is not only 25 km/h but also 250 W nominal restriction here.

Come on man, I live in a hilly part of Bay area, there are many %15+ grade hills in my neighborhood. In my new place I can literally open my door and begin climbing. Mountains/hills don't only exist in Europe. Besides aren't you living in an almost flat city?

While I don't need any assistance to climb these hills, even an additional 100W makes it quite easy to climb these hills depending on your speed. It also depends very much on the rider's weight and fitness level.

Being able to climb steep hills with a 250w limit requires the motor to provide assistance at the slower speeds. Climbing ability of a geared hub depends on the internal reduction ratio, when there is a single reduction gear you sacrifice low or high speed support. So one can decide to use a reduction to make it viable at slow speeds while capping the top speed. Yes mid drive has the advantage but it is not impossible with a hub. Also there is a solution to this problem with hubs, but so far companies have not capitalized on it.


Yes I know Gazelle, a very mediocre bike manufacturer who just slaps a bosh mid drive with mediocre components on an aluminum frame and sell it for a premium. I don't see anything impressive in their offerings.

Also Germany's approach to this situation is too anal. On the highways they don't have speed limits but if an ebike's speed limit is 20mph instead of 15.5 it is a big deal. If they have the resources to enforce then why not enforcing speed limits on bike paths.

Whatever.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Come on man, I live in a hilly part of Bay area, there are many %15+ grade hills in my neighborhood. In my new place I can literally open my door and begin climbing. Mountains/hills don't only exist in Europe. Besides aren't you living in an almost flat city?

While I don't need any assistance to climb these hills, even an additional 100W makes it quite easy to climb these hills depending on your speed. It also depends very much on the rider's weight and fitness level.

Being able to climb steep hills with a 250w limit requires the motor to provide assistance at the slower speeds. Climbing ability of a geared hub depends on the internal reduction ratio, when there is a single reduction gear you sacrifice low or high speed support. So one can decide to use a reduction to make it viable at slow speeds while capping the top speed. Yes mid drive has the advantage but it is not impossible with a hub. Also there is a solution to this problem with hubs, but so far companies have not capitalized on it.


Yes I know Gazelle, a very mediocre bike manufacturer who just slaps a bosh mid drive with mediocre components on an aluminum frame and sell it for a premium. I don't see anything impressive in their offerings.

Also Germany's approach to this situation is too anal. On the highways they don't have speed limits but if an ebike's speed limit is 20mph instead of 15.5 it is a big deal. If they have the resources to enforce then why not enforcing speed limits on bike paths.

Whatever.

Any of this does not answer why the four biggest e-bike brands only use mid-drive motors.

 

[AHicks]

Any of this does not answer why the four biggest e-bike brands only use mid-drive motors.

4 biggest? That may be nonsense in many parts of the world.

Suggest when mentioning "biggest" you need to mention where they are the biggest.

 

[m@Robertson]

... For primarily road use I will take a hub, front actually, every time. With a throttle and no PAS please.

Hey if it works for you I'm all for it. Enjoy it!

Finally, let me reiterate: The Netherlands is not the country that sets the example for e-bikes in Europe.

Nobody said or implied that. No need to raise your blood pressure. But if you just like to vent by all means keep going.

 

[steve mercier]

I honestly have no idea. I see mostly expensive Bosch mid drive mountain bikes out in the hills. Mid drives are likely better for that kind of bike.
Its almost a religious argument, and if you don't take a side then both sides hate you.

Yeah you are unlikely to see a hub motor bike on a black diamond trail or even a blue rated one for that matter.

 

[tomjasz]

An impending change of direction has me looking for a high quality GD hub motor ebike? Opinions? Brand?

 

[AHicks]

An impending change of direction has me looking for a high quality GD hub motor ebike? Opinions? Brand?

Are you going to build it, buy it, or modify something close?

 

[mschwett]

...

Van Moof is a very minor player in the market. Could you comment on the Big Three (Giant, Specialized, Trek) with the inclusion of Cannondale as the fourth largest world player? Or, take Haibike, the biggest German e-bike manufacturer?
...

the european perspective is obviously very different from what those of us in north america see. 3 million ebikes sold in europe. only 400,000 in the united states in 2018. it would be safe to assume it doubled or more than doubled and that number is closer to a million now but still well under half.

again looking at the 2018 data, the top three in the US were trek, specialized, and electra. since 2018, trek has purchased electra, and it's worth noting that several of electra's best-selling models are in fact rear hub drive. (e.g. the townie go! 7d.) so, for north america at least, it's not correct to say that the biggest players only sell mid-drive bikes. they *mostly* sell mid-drive bikes. trek claimed $200 million in e-bike revenue in 2018, which at an average price of $4k is 50,000 eBikes.

vanMoof sold approx 40,000 bikes in 2020, so while they're smaller, they're not that much smaller. perhaps half the size assuming various amounts of growth from 2018 to 2020 and split of north america vs rest of world. the distribution of their sales is clearly VERY skewed; after RAD, they are probably the most common e-bike i see in san francisco other than bikeshare and delivery vehicles.

speaking of Rad, they claimed $100 million in revenue in 2019 and that it "spiked by 300% year over year in april 2020." assuming there's some optimistic accounting there, that's $250 million in revenue for 2020, which makes them bigger than trek was in 2018. so, again, in the north american market, i wouldn't be so quick to assume who the biggest players are. Rad's bikes are far cheaper than Trek's, so with roughly similar revenue it's safe to say there are a LOT more rad eBikes on the road in North America than there are Treks, or Specializeds. come to san francisco (a place where the typical road bike is as likely an s-works model as anything!) and you'll see this very clearly. rad, rad, rad, vanmoof, aventon, vanmoof, rad, trek, rad, specialized, vanmoof, specialized, trek, trek, aventon, rad, yuba, rad, specialized....

 

[mschwett]

Mschwett

Are there Amazon distributorship near the shipyards?

there are amazon facilities everywhere, no!??!

but the massive ones are inland, since the ports are in urban areas.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

the european perspective is obviously very different from what those of us in north america see. 3 million ebikes sold in europe. only 400,000 in the united states in 2018. it would be safe to assume it doubled or more than doubled and that number is closer to a million now but still well under half.

again looking at the 2018 data, the top three in the US were trek, specialized, and electra. since 2018, trek has purchased electra, and it's worth noting that several of electra's best-selling models are in fact rear hub drive. (e.g. the townie go! 7d.) so, for north america at least, it's not correct to say that the biggest players only sell mid-drive bikes. they *mostly* sell mid-drive bikes. trek claimed $200 million in e-bike revenue in 2018, which at an average price of $4k is 50,000 eBikes.

vanMoof sold approx 40,000 bikes in 2020, so while they're smaller, they're not that much smaller. perhaps half the size assuming various amounts of growth from 2018 to 2020 and split of north america vs rest of world. the distribution of their sales is clearly VERY skewed; after RAD, they are probably the most common e-bike i see in san francisco other than bikeshare and delivery vehicles.

speaking of Rad, they claimed $100 million in revenue in 2019 and that it "spiked by 300% year over year in april 2020." assuming there's some optimistic accounting there, that's $250 million in revenue for 2020, which makes them bigger than trek was in 2018. so, again, in the north american market, i wouldn't be so quick to assume who the biggest players are. Rad's bikes are far cheaper than Trek's, so with roughly similar revenue it's safe to say there are a LOT more rad eBikes on the road in North America than there are Treks, or Specializeds. come to san francisco (a place where the typical road bike is as likely an s-works model as anything!) and you'll see this very clearly. rad, rad, rad, vanmoof, aventon, vanmoof, rad, trek, rad, specialized, vanmoof, specialized, trek, trek, aventon, rad, yuba, rad, specialized....

I take it Rad and Van Moof might be big but only in North America.
You say Trek owns Electra. Right. Still Trek does not make any hub-drive motor e-bikes under own brand.
I start dreaming of a trip to Germany in the warm season to make a larger report on what is ridden there. Still, I was to the Czech Republic last Summer. Czechs mimic what their German neighbours do, and the Czech Republic is a montane country: I could see a big number of e-bikes in Czech mountains, and could see no hub-drive e-bike there. Another observation was the Czech were buying mostly from entry level e-bike brands such as German Haibike, Austrian KTM or Polish Kross.

 

[mschwett]

I take it Rad and Van Moof might be big but only in North America.
You say Trek owns Electra. Right. Still Trek does not make any hub-drive motor e-bikes under own brand.
I start dreaming of a trip to Germany in the warm season to make a larger report on what is ridden there. Still, I was to the Czech Republic last Summer. Czechs mimic what their German neighbours do, and the Czech Republic is a montane country: I could see a big number of e-bikes in Czech mountains, and could see no hub-drive e-bike there. Another observation was the Czech were buying mostly from entry level e-bike brands such as German Haibike, Austrian KTM or Polish Kross.

well, no. the Electra name is gone. They are marketed and sold and supported as Trek bikes, directly. Electra no longer exists.

Townie Go! 7D Step-Over - Trek Bikes

Discover your next great ride with Townie Go! 7D Step-Over. See the bike and visit your local Trek retailer. Shop now!

www.trekbikes.com

so regardless of the history, it is not correct to say that trek doesn’t sell hub drive ebikes.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

well, no. the Electra name is gone. They are marketed and sold and supported as Trek bikes, directly. Electra no longer exists.

Townie Go! 7D Step-Over - Trek Bikes

Discover your next great ride with Townie Go! 7D Step-Over. See the bike and visit your local Trek retailer. Shop now!

www.trekbikes.com

so regardless of the history, it is not correct to say that trek doesn’t sell hub drive ebikes.

Interesting. I have just looked up the Trek Bikes Poland website for all Go! e-bikes. These old-school, ugly hub-drive motor e-bikes are priced as high as Specialized Vado SL products. Honestly, I wouldn't like to be a Trek dealer in Poland Because you can get beautiful hub-drive motor e-bikes at half the price in Poland (My Czech Lovelec Diadem is of that kind, with a beautifully integrated battery).

P.S. So you say it is not Electra anymore? How odd...

It is US$4,300. Vado SL 4.0 EQ sells for US$3950. Now look at this:

It is what Decathlon sells for US$1,400 in Poland. Hard time for Electra.

 

[mschwett]

Interesting. I have just looked up the Trek Bikes Poland website for all Go! e-bikes. These old-school, ugly hub-drive motor e-bikes are priced as high as Specialized Vado SL products. Honestly, I wouldn't like to be a Trek dealer in Poland Because you can get beautiful hub-drive motor e-bikes at half the price in Poland (My Czech Lovelec Diadem is of that kind, with a beautifully integrated battery).

P.S. So you say it is not Electra anymore? How odd...

…

curious that for some reason they kept the Electra name more prominently in Poland, but not the US! I see that it does still appear, but only as a link in the brand roster and references in the description. Perhaps they’ll keep it as a lower-end range for legacy value.