Why do the big bike brands (almost) never use hub motors?

[kmccune]

I built a good hybrid bike in the garage with a 750w rear hub drive and rode it 1000 miles. It was great fun, worked superbly and climbed hills without any issues.

But I wanted to experience a hub drive. So, I took all of the hub drive stuff off (except the 48v 13ah battery) and replaced it with a Bafang BBSHD mid-drive kit.

I have a bit less than 200 miles now on the mid-drive and I can definitely say... they are both very good. I'm not at all sure which I prefer. I like the display better on the Bafang. But other than that?

The rear hub drive is more torquey and picks up from a dead stop much better. But the mid-drive is faster overall once it gets up to speed.

Both use the gears about the same. Both climb hills, but the hub drive did so a bit quicker/easier.

When I bought the Bafang mid-drive kit ($700 without a battery) I thought I'd sell the rear hub-drive wheel and parts (original cost $800 WITH a battery). But now, I'm thinking I may not want to. I may decide to reinstall it some day.

YMMV

i tried my best to get a TDZ( it was apparently lost or stolen en route) the thing is when my expectations were tempered the hub drives worked fine, the thing is I pedal in low assist and the lower assistance helps me keep a reasonable cadence, plus the ability to go higher when I am about to stall. Yes I could get by with an Acoustic bike on the paved level, the trouble is around here it is anything but, EBikes got Me back in the saddle and EBikes will see me home.
Looked at an "Aventon Adventure" in the semi-local bike shop the other day and the dumpster is calling for my sorry builds,I abandoned one this morning and still try to finish the "Huffy" cruiser( found out the hard way higher-end bikes convert easier.

 

[Daffyh]

Here is another viewpoint from a local bike shop owner that specializes in Ebike conversions... it's not my opinion so don't blame the messenger.

WHY WE DO NOT USE HUB MOTORS IN OUR CONVERSIONS
May 20, 2020 Electric Bikes - Island City Bikes, LLC

The electric bike hub motor
"This is a typical hub motor. Hub motors like these are found on every poorly made bike in the world. Hub motors are used on electric bikes for one reason and that is because they are very inexpensive. If one peruses eBay, Amazon, Aliexpress, or Alibaba, one would find thousands of electric bikes for sale at unbelievably low prices and they all have one thing in common...a hub motor. Many electric bike companies that sell their electric bikes online at incredibly low prices also have a hub motor on their bikes. One of the things that are always missing from their promotional material is the weight of their hub motor electric bikes. They omit the weight of the bike because they are very heavy due to the hub motor. At our shop, the number one complaint we hear about hub motor-driven electric bikes is weight and a lack of power.

It is not an exaggeration to say that millions of electric bikes are produced throughout the world with a hub motor. As a manufacturer of electric bikes, we are contacted weekly by Asian eBike companies asking us to buy these hub motor electric bikes with our logo on the frames. We politely refuse and tell them we will stay with the reliable, lightweight Bafang mid-drive. It has been said that I do not like hub drive electric bikes because I am a retailer of Bafang mid-drive motors. First, I am not a retailer of Bafang motors. In fact, at Island City Bikes we do not sell anything to the general public. Our specialty is converting standard bikes into electric bikes using the best motor on the market and that happens to be the Bafang mid-drive. We warranty the Bafang motor for one year...out of our own pocket. That is how confident we are in the reliability of the Bafang motor.

Are all hub motors bad? No, there is a wide spectrum of electric bike hub motors ranging from terrible to excellent. Some hub motors are small, lightweight, and of high quality. However these motors are very limited in power, torque, and speed, and they can be triple the price of a Bafang mid-drive. There are some riders who want to ride an electric bike but do not want to be seen riding an electric bike. That is the market the small hub motor dealer is looking to reach. Then there are the large high powered electric hub motors. These motors can go up to 3000 watts. Again, they are very, very heavy motors.

Bikes with hub motors
We do not build with hub motors as there are too many negatives and too few positives when it comes to an electric hub motor. Nearly everyone I know in the industry that sells electric bike motors do not sell hub motors. The reason they state is that the quality is so poor they have too many people asking for refunds. Hub motors are made by the millions and are used on more electric bikes throughout the world than any other type of motor. They are ubiquitous because they are inexpensive.

Here are the negatives of the hub motor:

1. Shipping is expensive as you have to ship an entire wheel. Or, you can order only the motor and have it laced into a rim when it arrives. However, that is expensive.

2. A front hub motor is dangerous. The motor can pull free of the dropouts on the front fork. In addition, most accidents that occur on a hub driven bike are those where the hub motor is on the front. Being "pulled" by an electric motor is not very natural.

3. Hub motors are heavy...very heavy. Some electric bikes with hub motors weigh up to 70 pounds. There are some hub motors that are light but they are only 250 watts which is not enough power for climbing hills or carrying cargo. In my opinion, 250-350 watt is just too small of a motor for an electric bike.

4. Many (most) bike shops will not work on a bike with a hub motor. By work on I mean no work at all, not ever repair a flat tire. The reason for this is the bikes are too heavy. A bike shop repair stand clamp is 5 feet off the ground. They would have to lift a 60-pound bike 5 feet to get it on the stand. Also, to repair a flat the whole hub motor has to be removed. These motors are bolted to the bike. A bike shop could easily charge $100 to repair a flat on a bike with a hub motor and be within their right to do so.

5. A rider cannot repair a flat while out on the road. If a rider has a flat on the wheel with the hub motor the likelihood they can repair it on the road is pretty much zero. You would have to call for a truck or van to come to retrieve the bike and then you would have to find a bike shop to repair the flat.

It is a many step process to remove a hub motor in order to fix a flat. First, you have to lift the bike off the ground or turn it upside down. That is impossible for most riders due to the weight of the bike. You have to carry wrenches as the wheel is bolted to the frame. You have to disconnect the cable from the motor to the battery. You have to muscle the bike out of the dropouts. Then you remove the tube and insert a new tube and get the wheel back on the bike. The axle of a drop-out motor has to line up with the dropouts or it will not go in. Once the wheel is in place, the power cables connected, the chain back on, and the bike righted then it is finished. Unless the tube is pinched and in that case the tire will deflate and you will have to go through the entire process again.

6. Bikes with hub motors are so heavy they cannot be carried on standard bike racks for cars.

7. Hub motors are typically sealed and cannot be repaired.

8. Hub motors make it impossible to adjust the disk brake pads because the motor blocks access. Disk brake pad adjustment on a bike with a mid-drive motor is a 5-minute job. That same task on a hub motorbike takes an hour....if you can find a bike shop willing to do the adjustment.

Is there anything good to say about hub motors?

A Stanford professor walked into my shop and ask me a few questions. After I answered he chuckled and said, "You are as opinionated in real life as you are on your website." I said, "I hope that is a good thing." He said of course it was as an opinion based on facts is different than an opinion based on hunches, feelings, or intuition. I see motors of all types come into the shop and we convert bikes to electric seven days a week...I know what motors underperform, fail, overheat, and are poorly constructed. To this day I have yet to meet a single person who did not regret purchasing a hub motor-driven electric bike after one-year ownership. In conclusion, I have heard the saying going around the forums that, "Hub driven electric bikes are for those who cannot afford a mid-drive." The Bafang mid-drive does cost a bit more than a hub drive but it will provide years of trouble free performance."

My fatbike rear hub bafang and its rider don’t have as many issues as the quoted text. As a kid i put my bmx upside down to change a flat. I also have 2 Bosch mid drives. I had 1 flat on the fatbike and none on any of my mid drives. Changing it wasnt difficult and i am disabled. Fatbike has almost 5000klm on it now with vast majority of that towing my 2 small dogs in a trailer which adds approx 20-25 kg. I am 105kg my meds made me fat, a side effect and riding a normal bike is almost impossible.

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

This is a very long, multi-paged thread and what I may add here has likely already been brought into the discussion.....

1. Mid drives allow the best and latest in derailleur technology, especially coming out of the mtb field: multi-speed 11 x 50 gear clusters & the derailleur designs that can take those wide ration gears. This only increases the ability of the rider to climb very, very steep inclines......something the hub motor could never do.

2. If cassettes and derailleurs aren't your cup of tea, then the high tech internal gear hub drives are out there to offer gearing comparable to those pie plate "Eagle" rear clusters. Think Rohloff, Kindernay and at a more economical cost, the offerings from Shimano. Hub drives usually feature a very limited, small gear ratio cassette, usually of cheap quality.

3. Modern mid drives pretty much always include thru axles, front and rear, which offers the best in a rigid wheel coupling to the frame. Hub drives have steel nuts which apply pressure to the frame, via the threaded axle which allows potential room to walk in the dropout.

4. Finally, if the major ebike drive manufacturers haven't jumped into the rear hub motor game, with their multi billion dollar research and manufacturing facilities at their disposal, that is telling in what they think of that drive technology.

 

[mclewis1]

Mike, sorry but you appear to have a seriously limited point of view on what's available in the market. You seem to be looking at only very inexpensive bikes.

Hub drives don't pre define any particular derailleur use or gearing ... one of my geared hub bikes uses a SRAM 12 speed setup with an 11-52 cassette, another a 10spd Shimano 105 with a triple front ... and could just as easily been setup on my Campy Chorus 11 speed based road bike. If anything there are more limitations on drivetrain choices with a mid drive due to torque applied beyond many parts' capabilities (causing broken or very limited lifespans in some chains, hub splines, and cheap IGHs).

You can build good mid drives and you can build good geared hub setups, and you can also do it poorly with cheap inexpensive parts. Neither choice has a lock on quality or price points.

On a somewhat limited or moderate budget (because with an unlimited one you can build/buy just about anything) I like most folks wouldn't choose a geared hub to climb serious off road trails, but I also wouldn't choose a mid drive for higher speed long distance road work where I also needed to climb a few hills (not enough range in the 1x gearing and not happy running a 52x11).

As for big companies technology directions, I'd be careful trying to read too much into the reasons for those choices (they tend to be very complex). Who do you think has more clout around the boardroom table - the RnD guys or finance? The question for those companies is not just which is the better technology or configuration, it's more about which choice will make them more money over the next few years.

 

[Johnny]

This is a very long, multi-paged thread and what I may add here has likely already been brought into the discussion.....

1. Mid drives allow the best and latest in derailleur technology, especially coming out of the mtb field: multi-speed 11 x 50 gear clusters & the derailleur designs that can take those wide ration gears. This only increases the ability of the rider to climb very, very steep inclines......something the hub motor could never do.

2. If cassettes and derailleurs aren't your cup of tea, then the high tech internal gear hub drives are out there to offer gearing comparable to those pie plate "Eagle" rear clusters. Think Rohloff, Kindernay and at a more economical cost, the offerings from Shimano. Hub drives usually feature a very limited, small gear ratio cassette, usually of cheap quality.

3. Modern mid drives pretty much always include thru axles, front and rear, which offers the best in a rigid wheel coupling to the frame. Hub drives have steel nuts which apply pressure to the frame, via the threaded axle which allows potential room to walk in the dropout.

4. Finally, if the major ebike drive manufacturers haven't jumped into the rear hub motor game, with their multi billion dollar research and manufacturing facilities at their disposal, that is telling in what they think of that drive technology.

I like your bike setup a lot but here I have to disagree with most of these statements.

1. No, hubs can take those cassettes/derailleurs.
2. Pinion + hub setups are just as good if not better than rohloff etc since the igh does not have to be stressed with motor input.
3. There are through axle hub offerings.
4. Billion dollar research budget ? No, even the largest bicycle company's revenue is below two billion dollars (and that is much much larger than the rest) and there is no way they can allocate billions of dollars for that kind of research.
Actually the reason why they use mid drives is most likely their lack of research budget and demand for ebikes. With a mid drive it is all about modifying the frame to take the mid drive and the battery and and slapping them on just like any other component.

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

I like your bike setup a lot but here I have to disagree with most of these statements.

1. No, hubs can take those cassettes/derailleurs.
2. Pinion + hub setups are just as good if not better than rohloff etc since the igh does not have to be stressed with motor input.
3. There are through axle hub offerings.
4. Billion dollar research budget ? No, even the largest bicycle company's revenue is below two billion dollars (and that is much much larger than the rest) and there is no way they can allocate billions of dollars for that kind of research.
Actually the reason why they use mid drives is most likely their lack of research budget and demand for ebikes. With a mid drive it is all about modifying the frame to take the mid drive and the battery and and slapping them on just like any other component.

Johnny, I don't pay much mind to the hub drive world as it seems to me, the mid drive market is constantly coming out with new innovations, more torque and as an offshoot, bigger battery capacity. I don't see that at all with hub drives with the exception of Stromer and their business seems to have flatlined after alot of customer complaints about breakdowns after the sale was completed.

1. Regards to point 1 and maybe take Stromer out, I'm not seeing high end cassettes and derailleurs on the hub drives reviewed on this site. Who are these bike companies?

2. I love the Pinion drive but as far as I have seen, nobody has built and sold a pinion drive, hub motor ebike. Please correct me if I'm wrong as I'd like to read up on that kind of drive.

3. Regarding thru axle installations, can you give me bike manufacturer names?

4. Bosch and Yamaha's as well as Shimano certainly have the financial power of a billion dollar company behind them to research, design, build and upgrade their ebike drive and battery systems. Bafang is a growing power as well and you can note, their latest technology is focused on their mid drive motors and not hub drives. Regards to the big mid drive people, the verdict must be in about hub drives as none of them market or have plans of marketing a hub drive motor.

Just one guy's opinion about the hub vs mid drive question!

PS: Thanks for the opening kind words!

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

Mike, sorry but you appear to have a seriously limited point of view on what's available in the market. You seem to be looking at only very inexpensive bikes.

Hub drives don't pre define any particular derailleur use or gearing ... one of my geared hub bikes uses a SRAM 12 speed setup with an 11-52 cassette, another a 10spd Shimano 105 with a triple front ... and could just as easily been setup on my Campy Chorus 11 speed based road bike. If anything there are more limitations on drivetrain choices with a mid drive due to torque applied beyond many parts' capabilities (causing broken or very limited lifespans in some chains, hub splines, and cheap IGHs).

You can build good mid drives and you can build good geared hub setups, and you can also do it poorly with cheap inexpensive parts. Neither choice has a lock on quality or price points.

On a somewhat limited or moderate budget (because with an unlimited one you can build/buy just about anything) I like most folks wouldn't choose a geared hub to climb serious off road trails, but I also wouldn't choose a mid drive for higher speed long distance road work where I also needed to climb a few hills (not enough range in the 1x gearing and not happy running a 52x11).

As for big companies technology directions, I'd be careful trying to read too much into the reasons for those choices (they tend to be very complex). Who do you think has more clout around the boardroom table - the RnD guys or finance? The question for those companies is not just which is the better technology or configuration, it's more about which choice will make them more money over the next few years.

McLewis, aside from the Stromer, who went all in with hub drive, are there other players on the mid to high end bike spectrum that goes strictly with hub drive?

My first ever ebike encounter on the local towpaths were two hub drive bikes; one was a commuter style bike with the Bion-X hub drive. I was impressed how that bike just accelerated away from me (riding my Specialized Fatboy)after our brief talk about what he was riding there; and I was certainly sorry to see that company exit from the ebike market.

Another was some 6 years ago, an older couple had matching Specialized's with the hub drive. Again, a commuter style bike, nothing fancy. The husband allowed me a spin on his and just one short ride convinced me that an ebike was in my future.

And yes, you are right, today I am influenced by what I see on the market and on this forum and for the most part, they are cheap, throw away hub drives that weigh a ton.

 

[Johnny]

Johnny, I don't pay much mind to the hub drive world as it seems to me, the mid drive market is constantly coming out with new innovations, more torque and as an offshoot, bigger battery capacity. I don't see that at all with hub drives with the exception of Stromer and their business seems to have flatlined after alot of customer complaints about breakdowns after the sale was completed.

1. Regards to point 1 and maybe take Stromer out, I'm not seeing high end cassettes and derailleurs on the hub drives reviewed on this site. Who are these bike companies?

2. I love the Pinion drive but as far as I have seen, nobody has built and sold a pinion drive, hub motor ebike. Please correct me if I'm wrong as I'd like to read up on that kind of drive.

3. Regarding thru axle installations, can you give me bike manufacturer names?

4. Bosch and Yamaha's as well as Shimano certainly have the financial power of a billion dollar company behind them to research, design, build and upgrade their ebike drive and battery systems. Bafang is a growing power as well and you can note, their latest technology is focused on their mid drive motors and not hub drives. Regards to the big mid drive people, the verdict must be in about hub drives as none of them market or have plans of marketing a hub drive motor.

Just one guy's opinion about the hub vs mid drive question!

PS: Thanks for the opening kind words!

.

To the best of my knowledge,

1. Any tdcm, dapu, gmac can take the cassettes you have mentioned. I think the misconception is a result of the entry level ebikes which use low level components.

2. Klever, Mtbcycletech and lately Stromer (new st3) has released ebikes with pinion/hub setup.

3. Dapu hubs come to mind. For example Ravi uses one with through axle in his commuter.

4. I thought you were talking about bike manufacturers. Motor manufacturers make what bike manufacturers want and it wouldn't make sense to put in the amount of money which is comparable to the total revenue of these bike companies who will buy these motors(btw Bosch does make hub motors just not for ebikes). When bike manufacturers want to take the easy route of installing a mid drive without really changing the design significantly and avoid dealing with warranty issues themselves, mid drive becomes an easier solution for them.

Btw hubs are by no means perfect, both hub and mid drives have favorable use cases. Moreover one can design better hub motors than what is on the market today but it is a demand problem.


Best

 

[AHicks]

.

To the best of my knowledge,

1. Any tdcm, dapu, gmac can take the cassettes you have mentioned. I think the misconception is a result of the entry level ebikes which use low level components.

2. Klever, Mtbcycletech and lately Stromer (new st3) has released ebikes with pinion/hub setup.

3. Dapu hubs come to mind. For example Ravi uses one with through axle in his commuter.

4. I thought you were talking about bike manufacturers. Motor manufacturers make what bike manufacturers want and it wouldn't make sense to put in the amount of money which is comparable to the total revenue of these bike companies who will buy these motors(btw Bosch does make hub motors just not for ebikes). When bike manufacturers want to take the easy route of installing a mid drive without really changing the design significantly and avoid dealing with warranty issues themselves, mid drive becomes an easier solution for them.

Btw hubs are by no means perfect, both hub and mid drives have favorable use cases. Moreover one can design better hub motors than what is on the market today but it is a demand problem.


Best

On the bold, couldn't agree more. The other BIG piece of the hub drive picture is the fact darn few (if any?) bike manf's are using controllers that are worth a damn as judged by what's available on the aftermarket (KT for instance).

I believe as well, as I own and ride both mid and geared hub (both torque monsters), that the geared hub is WAY easier to ride from a rookie standpoint. Sure the mid's are nice, with huge climbing power available, but they ARE more difficult to ride due to the need to keep them in the right gear (or something close to it).

Thought is, inexpensive, even mid priced, bike manf's may be keying in on the the fact that they are marketing to folks looking for something EASY to ride. That may be a smart move, but I can see where having a more expensive model, one with a mid drive and maybe higher quality components, for those that are buying second bikes, or possibly wanting the more advanced bike to start with.

 

[tomjasz]

but they ARE more difficult to ride due to the need to keep them in the right gear (or something close to it).

This is where the BBSHD shines! Not much worrying about about over heating if in the wrong gear for the load. BBS02B motor needs to be ridden much like an acoustic bike and paying attention to not lug the motor.

 

[JRA]

This link may not work for all but it does lead one to believe that "big" manufacturers see hub motors as relevant in the eBike marketplace going forward.

"The joint statement mentions Europe as the largest market for e-bikes. According to Yamaha, “about half of the market’s offerings use hub-mounted drive units. We expect the prominence of these hub-mounted drive units to rise accordingly and signed the agreement to establish this joint venture with that in mind. By adding the hub-mounted drive units to our portfolio, we look to raise the overall strength and capabilities of our e-bike business and thereby secure future business growth.”

Yamaha Motor and Hero Motors to partner in e-bike motor manufacturing

IWATA, Japan - A total of €2.5 million will be invested by Yamaha Motor and Hero Motors to open a facility for the production of e-bike hub motors. The two companies announced this after signing a joint venture agreement.

www.bike-eu.com

 

[Alvarenga]

This link may not work for all but it does lead one to believe that "big" manufacturers see hub motors as relevant in the eBike marketplace going forward.

"The joint statement mentions Europe as the largest market for e-bikes. According to Yamaha, “about half of the market’s offerings use hub-mounted drive units. We expect the prominence of these hub-mounted drive units to rise accordingly and signed the agreement to establish this joint venture with that in mind. By adding the hub-mounted drive units to our portfolio, we look to raise the overall strength and capabilities of our e-bike business and thereby secure future business growth.”

Yamaha Motor and Hero Motors to partner in e-bike motor manufacturing

IWATA, Japan - A total of €2.5 million will be invested by Yamaha Motor and Hero Motors to open a facility for the production of e-bike hub motors. The two companies announced this after signing a joint venture agreement.

www.bike-eu.com

Interesting.
Does Yamaha have Chinese production? They are looking towards India and Europe according to that story.
They also are talking about hub motors which is against the prevailing narrative.

 

[mschwett]

Interesting.
Does Yamaha have Chinese production? They are looking towards India and Europe according to that story.
They also are talking about hub motors which is against the prevailing narrative.

it would be interesting to find some real statistics. the most common (new) eBike i see here in SF is the vanmoof s3 - i have one too so perhaps i notice them, but they’re all over. setting aside delivery/couriers i also see a lots and lots of aventons (rear hub) and big-bike-brand mid-drives like the vado.

vanmoof revenue for 2020 estimated at $100m - given that they basically only sell one bike at approx $2000 thats 40,000 bikes with a front hub motor, from just one brand. i wouldn’t be at all surprised if there are more hub drive bikes being sold than mid-drives. this forum just has a bit of a bias.

 

[Alvarenga]

it would be interesting to find some real statistics. the most common (new) eBike i see here in SF is the vanmoof s3 - i have one too so perhaps i notice them, but they’re all over. setting aside delivery/couriers i also see a lots and lots of aventons (rear hub) and big-bike-brand mid-drives like the vado.

vanmoof revenue for 2020 estimated at $100m - given that they basically only sell one bike at approx $2000 thats 40,000 bikes with a front hub motor, from just one brand. i wouldn’t be at all surprised if there are more hub drive bikes being sold than mid-drives. this forum just has a bit of a bias.

I honestly have no idea. I see mostly expensive Bosch mid drive mountain bikes out in the hills. Mid drives are likely better for that kind of bike.
Its almost a religious argument, and if you don't take a side then both sides hate you.

 

[AHicks]

There are a few of us that have both hub and mid. Would be really nice if those that aren't actively riding both (now or in very recent past) to be REAL careful when expressing "best". My thought is if they have no first hand experience on both, they have no idea what "best" even looks like....

This should NOT be about "this is what I bought", and because I'm a smart 'feller, it must be best!

Here's a hint from somebody riding both, there is no generic "best" type of drive. ALL have specific missions they will excel at when compared to others. NONE will do everything well.... My opinion, FWIW.

 

[JRA]

"i wouldn’t be at all surprised if there are more hub drive bikes being sold than mid-drives. this forum just has a bit of a bias."

Considering that the Asia-Pacific market sales are mostly hub drives and they far outstrip EU and US sales then I agree.

The bias here is due to frequent posters, as with any forum that I have ever participated in, that only see one side, usually theirs, of the coin to justify their decisions with little regard for others.

At the end of the day both systems have their place in the LEV/eBike world and should be respected equally.

 

[Alvarenga]

"i wouldn’t be at all surprised if there are more hub drive bikes being sold than mid-drives. this forum just has a bit of a bias."

Considering that the Asia-Pacific market sales are mostly hub drives and they far outstrip EU and US sales then I agree.

The bias here is due to frequent posters, as with any forum that I have ever participated in, that only see one side, usually theirs, of the coin to justify their decisions with little regard for others.

At the end of the day both systems have their place in the LEV/eBike world and should be respected equally.

I would agree. I have a DIY hub drive with which I have no isues. I am about to install a mid drive to another bike -for a different use.

 

[Daffyh]

There are a few of us that have both hub and mid. Would be really nice if those that aren't actively riding both (now or in very recent past) to be REAL careful when expressing "best". My thought is if they have no first hand experience on both, they have no idea what "best" even looks like....

This should NOT be about "this is what I bought", and because I'm a smart 'feller, it must be best!

Here's a hint from somebody riding both, there is no generic "best" type of drive. ALL have specific missions they will excel at when compared to others. NONE will do everything well.... My opinion, FWIW.

I own both as stated earlier as i am on my 2nd Bosch mid drive and 2nd rear hub drive. I have also owned front hub drive but hated that system. As many have stated use cases abound for either system. Throttles are legally banned in AU but thats an easy get around as throttle bikes can be sold as “ for off road use only”.
As my fatbike only has cadence sensor i need that throttle to take off with the dogs in the trailer, any other ebike with a torque sensor could easily negate throttle need, my Bosch bikes for example.My first Bosch was used to tow the dogs around as well but i made a personal choice to try rear hub again as towing the dogs with my hub drive scooter for a time was fun.

 

[m@Robertson]

This link may not work for all but it does lead one to believe that "big" manufacturers see hub motors as relevant in the eBike marketplace going forward.

"The joint statement mentions Europe as the largest market for e-bikes. According to Yamaha, “about half of the market’s offerings use hub-mounted drive units. We expect the prominence of these hub-mounted drive units to rise accordingly and signed the agreement to establish this joint venture with that in mind. By adding the hub-mounted drive units to our portfolio, we look to raise the overall strength and capabilities of our e-bike business and thereby secure future business growth.”

Yamaha Motor and Hero Motors to partner in e-bike motor manufacturing

IWATA, Japan - A total of €2.5 million will be invested by Yamaha Motor and Hero Motors to open a facility for the production of e-bike hub motors. The two companies announced this after signing a joint venture agreement.

www.bike-eu.com

Something to consider if you are going to take a stab at understanding the world marketplace is terrain, urban conditions and cycling culture. Take Van Moof for example: Hub motors. Where are they located? Amsterdam. Where are the biggest per capita bike riding countries in the EU? What is their terrain like? Also what are the urban conditions for riding regardless of terrain? In Paris there are some areas where the limit is 5 km/h. Not mph. km/h. They actually have cops with radar guns (on foot no less) pulling people over.

Flat lands, cobbled city centers. Crowds. Streets that are nothing like what are here in the states, and a cycling culture that does not prize speed and doesn't have a need for safety equipment as a result (take a look at how many EU riders wear any kind of cycling clothing, gloves, helmets etc.)

And its a world where grownups cycle as a matter of routine transportation. Here in the USA cycling is still primarily a recreational activity and adults drive cars to get places.

So its a less demanding performance market, and its an order of magnitude larger than the US in terms of prospective customers. Is this all that relevant to US ebike cycling needs and wants?

 

[JRA]

"So its a less demanding performance market, and its an order of magnitude larger than the US in terms of prospective customers. Is this all that relevant to US ebike cycling needs and wants?"

Given the fact that the #1 selling ebike company in the US is RAD that only sells hub motor bikes, with throttles, that has also launched a plethora of other spin offs of the same ilk I am failing to see your point?

In getting more folks out of cars, or just creating more sustainable affordable transportation for all acting on a global scale, no matter what terrain or circumstance, should be the end goal and as I keep saying hub drives and mid drives both will play their part.