Bike_On
Well-Known Member
Well said.
why do folks want a higher watt motor?
- Thread starter Teresa
- Start date
Bike_On
Well-Known Member
Premise: ebikes must not be allowed to operate at speeds faster than normal bicycles.
Result: 20mph legal limit / 15 in Europe. 750w limit on motor output.
False Aaumptions and issues:
What is normal ? Grandma's speed or a road cyclist? Should not the power and range of ebikes support the full range of the bike experience? (0-35mph). Trails, bike paths, bike lanes?
Ebikes are not motor vehicles. That is explicit in the law. They are not motor cycles. Even gas mopeds, with 2.5 hp engines (1800 watts) are not specified as motor vehicles in about every state. The mtn bike community seems to be bashing ebikes and not recognize their new cousins.
IMO, the best way to answer the thread question, is that power/ speed should be limited at the moped limits , and access should be limited based upon local safety and reasonable use .
Speed pedelcs blur the line with mopeds, so why make a hard 20 mph limit for ebikes ? Isn't that why systems have multiple levels of output ?
Ask yourself this question, if ebikes really are motorcycles/ mopeds / cheats then why not limit them to the output of a normal human? 100w average and 400w peak? Why not regulate with a special driving lisence and tags? So where is that limit?
Result: 20mph legal limit / 15 in Europe. 750w limit on motor output.
False Aaumptions and issues:
What is normal ? Grandma's speed or a road cyclist? Should not the power and range of ebikes support the full range of the bike experience? (0-35mph). Trails, bike paths, bike lanes?
Ebikes are not motor vehicles. That is explicit in the law. They are not motor cycles. Even gas mopeds, with 2.5 hp engines (1800 watts) are not specified as motor vehicles in about every state. The mtn bike community seems to be bashing ebikes and not recognize their new cousins.
IMO, the best way to answer the thread question, is that power/ speed should be limited at the moped limits , and access should be limited based upon local safety and reasonable use .
Speed pedelcs blur the line with mopeds, so why make a hard 20 mph limit for ebikes ? Isn't that why systems have multiple levels of output ?
Ask yourself this question, if ebikes really are motorcycles/ mopeds / cheats then why not limit them to the output of a normal human? 100w average and 400w peak? Why not regulate with a special driving lisence and tags? So where is that limit?
Last edited:
TenBlinkers
Member
You can't make cars that can't go over the speed limit because no one would buy them. If a bike that can go 28mph legally (in some states) on roads is available, why would you buy one that can only go 20mph unless it's for cost reasons? Do you buy cars that can only go 40mph? If car drivers are trusted to obey posted speed limits, why can't ebike riders?
Bike_On
Well-Known Member
Donny,
I am curious what bike you ride, if you don't mind sharing?
Also, electric motors are very torquey and can accelerated real fast. Even a 250w "ave" power motor can be programmed to take off fast. It is the peak amps, not average . The higher power comes into play when you are going up that 1/2 mile , 5% grade hill. The power delivered is continuous and the heat must be conducted, but more power is needed. A smaller motor will do the same, just slower.
Bike_On
Well-Known Member
Eddie,I can't argue with the comments made about the mountain bike community. I get treated pretty well at the organised events that I take part in. I've had some negative comments, but just ignore these, but when I read some of the negative comments on social media by a minority of pedal mtb users, it is quite shocking. I've read all kinds of threats in respect physically harming ebike riders, and a local journalist out testing a KTM around here was spat at.
We know that ebikes ease congestion when ridden on the road by potentially not holding up traffic so much, and even free up a space on the road that might otherwise have been filled with an additional car. Off road, my experience is that eMTB's are actually frequently kinder to trails than pedal mtb's as the additional forward momentum, offers are more linear and smooth ride. Just a shame that many can't see that.
In respect of organised events, one of the key elements is public liability insurance. Ebikes need to be legal, as the events are held in public spaces, and from the conversation that I had last year with an event organiser, they cannot police the bikes and check them, so banning all ebikes might be the only available option.
I also know what you mean about the shouting and whizzing past hikers. I see it quite frequently, and just as bad or rather worse, is not slowing down or stopping for people riding horses. I must admit that I have had some very aggressive hikers block my passage a few times this year, each trying to say that I shouldn't be riding where I was, and each of them completely wrong. The most comical of which was one particularly aggressive hiker who tried to tell me off, whilst he was actually standing right in front of a cycle path sign. A bit of an oversite on his part, but one that I was quick to politely point out. My path was still blocked though, and I ended up falling from the bike because of it. It was at this point that a female walker from the group stepped forward, and said that they should not have blocked my passage, and that I had every right to be there. Up until that point, I was prepared to give them the benefit of doubt of not knowing. That was the third incident in the same day, and I suspect that it very much been orchestrated to cause all mtb riders grief.
It was beautiful calm sunny day, I just couldn't understand why anyone would want to prevent someone else from being out in the countryside enjoying themselves. Luckily I had already stopped and had a couple of lovely long and pleasant chats to other walkers, and just reminded myself of this, and didn't let it spoil my day or provoke things. Clearly I was out having a far more productive and enjoyable day than they were.
Sorry to have gone so far off topic.
Thanks for the different perspective in England.
Bike_On
Well-Known Member
T-
Good input and perspective from a bike rider who has discovered "ebikes".
If I hadn't discovered ebikes, I would no longer be biking to work which I love to do. I went through menopause pretty much the same year I accepted a fairly large promotion at work requiring me to work much longer hours. Those two things combined started to limit the days I could ride and I spent more time worrying about how windy it was outside and whether it would take me an hour to get home in the dark, etc. It was no longer fun to use the bike.
Then I added an system to my bike and all those concerns went away. I was free to ride in whatever weather I wanted and if I was exhausted - I just used more of the battery but still enjoyed the chance to get outside and move. I love what my ebike has done for me. I bought a fully integrated system because it is reliable and stable and the mountain bike version because it made for a smooth ride. Now there are 3 of us who commute to work on ebikes.
I really dislike how the mountain bike community (at least online) is responding to the change. Ebikes are coming. Aging population, unfit - frankly, anything that gets people out and moving is a good thing to me. I do ride my bike on single track in the area and I'm personally zero threat to anyone's trail access. Having said that, I don't want to see souped up quasi-motor cycle ebikes ripping up the trails either and yes, there is a possibility of it happening. To some extent, those of us who support ebikes have the greatest responsibility to police ourselves and ensure that there is a future for the bikes. I don't know exactly what that should look like but I do think it is a good conversation for us to have.
Then I added an system to my bike and all those concerns went away. I was free to ride in whatever weather I wanted and if I was exhausted - I just used more of the battery but still enjoyed the chance to get outside and move. I love what my ebike has done for me. I bought a fully integrated system because it is reliable and stable and the mountain bike version because it made for a smooth ride. Now there are 3 of us who commute to work on ebikes.
I really dislike how the mountain bike community (at least online) is responding to the change. Ebikes are coming. Aging population, unfit - frankly, anything that gets people out and moving is a good thing to me. I do ride my bike on single track in the area and I'm personally zero threat to anyone's trail access. Having said that, I don't want to see souped up quasi-motor cycle ebikes ripping up the trails either and yes, there is a possibility of it happening. To some extent, those of us who support ebikes have the greatest responsibility to police ourselves and ensure that there is a future for the bikes. I don't know exactly what that should look like but I do think it is a good conversation for us to have.
Some good points, but with regards to the speed issue, that's going to vary state by state. Here in Texas, technically anything that can over 20 miles per hour starts to cross out of the bicycle definition that it hides under or at least blurs the line a little.
All of these limits have been established over time (like them or not and agree with them or not) for a variety of reasons. Many of those reasons involve money issues more than anything else (i.e. requiring a certain class of vehicle to be insured, require tags, and require a license) because the state can make money off of them. If they begin to notice that a certain segment of the this population is exceeding those limits, you better believe they will step in and make a law for it so that they can collect revenue. At that point, you may as well just buy a gas powered alternative.
I suppose another alternative would be to create a limit that says they cannot exceed a certain speed unassisted by the rider (i.e. if it is operating under motor power alone, it cannot go faster than "X" mph). Of course the other side to all of this is enforcement. I used to be a cop, there generally are not going to be people trolling along bike paths and what not enforcing this stuff anyway. What it will do is create issues at the retail level because people will be operating under the assumption that unless they can get a 5000w motor ebike (I'm being sarcastic), they are not getting anything worth having
I just picked up an iZip Zuma within the last week. I'm totally fine with what the bike is capable of, don't get me wrong. Having experienced mine and a few other lower watt motor bikes that I played around with before getting mine, I'm just surprised that so many people feel the need for something bigger. Of course that applies to more than just bikes
vincent
Well-Known Member
all of the below comments are coming from someone who thinks 15mph on their e bike is FAST, i am scared to go much faster
but i can see how more experienced riders that commute might want to go faster or need more range, hill power etc
imo unsafe is unsafe
my sedan will do 130mph and get there pretty quickly but obviously i dont drive that fast
used to ride horses a lot and have heard a lot of bad stories about the mountain bikers being very rude, fast and dangerous on the trails around the horses and this was long before electric ones were out there, they hate anyone on the trails with them, hikers included
people seem to hate change but reading some threads from mtn bikers etc it sounds like they half or more of them are rabid about electric bikes and the rest dont care much
personally i never ran into any mtn bikers except very nice ones when riding horses but have had experienced with rude and obnoxious road bikers - non ebikes
in fact and know i will get slammed for this here but i really do not like any type of bike on the road with cars, bike lanes or no
from someone who drives 50,000-60,000 miles a year for work i can tell you they make me nervous and they slow traffic down very bad
the exhaust/fuel savings of one bicycle does not negate the fact 15 cars had to brake to 5-10 miles an hour and then accelerate again to 35-40mph over and over going through town trying to get around you etc
being a somewhat hypermiler i can tell you that doesnt help the environment at all
occasionally i see a fast road biker who can actually keep up with traffic and it makes things so much smoother, amazed at how fast some of those guys are
if electric bikes helped achieve that think it would be great
even though i will never go that fast and will probably never need a 750 watt motor it just seems maybe someone living in a hilly city etc might
and i hate to see that taken away from them
what if you have a 30 mile hilly commute and dont want to get sweaty etc headed to work, so use throttle on the way there and then pedal assist only on the way home for exercise
just think there is a time and place for everything
agree with tenblinkers, we should be able to govern ourselves but people are not great at doing that
yes people tend to think bigger is better in a lot of things
but there are times when that is true
having a little too much truck for hauling your trailer is always a good thing, being a little underpowered/underweighted is never a good thing
i feel safer having a little bit quicker car for merging in traffic etc than being underpowered
if i was buying ebikes and the weight limit on one was 215 and the other 250 i would feel better buying the heavier rated bike to handle my weight even if i weight 215
same goes for the motor, even if i lose 75lbs in the future having the more powerful motor makes good sense to me
but i can see how more experienced riders that commute might want to go faster or need more range, hill power etc
imo unsafe is unsafe
my sedan will do 130mph and get there pretty quickly but obviously i dont drive that fast
used to ride horses a lot and have heard a lot of bad stories about the mountain bikers being very rude, fast and dangerous on the trails around the horses and this was long before electric ones were out there, they hate anyone on the trails with them, hikers included
people seem to hate change but reading some threads from mtn bikers etc it sounds like they half or more of them are rabid about electric bikes and the rest dont care much
personally i never ran into any mtn bikers except very nice ones when riding horses but have had experienced with rude and obnoxious road bikers - non ebikes
in fact and know i will get slammed for this here but i really do not like any type of bike on the road with cars, bike lanes or no
from someone who drives 50,000-60,000 miles a year for work i can tell you they make me nervous and they slow traffic down very bad
the exhaust/fuel savings of one bicycle does not negate the fact 15 cars had to brake to 5-10 miles an hour and then accelerate again to 35-40mph over and over going through town trying to get around you etc
being a somewhat hypermiler i can tell you that doesnt help the environment at all
occasionally i see a fast road biker who can actually keep up with traffic and it makes things so much smoother, amazed at how fast some of those guys are
if electric bikes helped achieve that think it would be great
even though i will never go that fast and will probably never need a 750 watt motor it just seems maybe someone living in a hilly city etc might
and i hate to see that taken away from them
what if you have a 30 mile hilly commute and dont want to get sweaty etc headed to work, so use throttle on the way there and then pedal assist only on the way home for exercise
just think there is a time and place for everything
agree with tenblinkers, we should be able to govern ourselves but people are not great at doing that
yes people tend to think bigger is better in a lot of things
but there are times when that is true
having a little too much truck for hauling your trailer is always a good thing, being a little underpowered/underweighted is never a good thing
i feel safer having a little bit quicker car for merging in traffic etc than being underpowered
if i was buying ebikes and the weight limit on one was 215 and the other 250 i would feel better buying the heavier rated bike to handle my weight even if i weight 215
same goes for the motor, even if i lose 75lbs in the future having the more powerful motor makes good sense to me
I'm a MTB and think eBikes and eMTB especially European mid drive ones are brilliant. The MTBer that oppose eMTBs seems strange coming a group of people that rely in latest technology to make their sport fun. If they were riding 1980s hard tails I might understand, but a lot are on high tech full suspension bikes that cost considerably more than a good ebike.
In 5-10yrs most of these fanatics will be riding eMTBs, especially if they don't want to be left behind.
In 5-10yrs most of these fanatics will be riding eMTBs, especially if they don't want to be left behind.
I agree with some of that - I'm lucky that in my area, there are enough trails/sidewalks around that I can get pretty much anywhere I want to go without getting on a road. The few roads that I have used are sleepy residential streets that have no traffic. I will not, repeat, will NOT get on a main road and play around with cars that outweigh me by thousands of pounds. I am also annoyed when "that guy" is pedaling around in the middle of the road slowing down traffic or even worse, that pack of bicyclists. It may be legal, I just don't think it's smart from a personal safety standpoint. The real answer to that would be dedicated bicycle lanes or networks like they have in Europe, but I don't think that will happen here in the U.S.
vincent
Well-Known Member
teresa i am the same, when i ride on roads it is in slow neighborhoods where i might pass 3 cars in an hour
even then i am in bright yellow reflective vest, lights all over the bike, etc
very scared of being on the road with cars
i love this dedicated bike loop/trail tucson has put in, you have to cross a road here and there but it is completely separated from roads
things are so congested now that i dont know where they would put the bikes lanes or make them considerably wider, which would be safer
it will be hard to do
thought this was funny from a mtn bike standpoint etc
in my LBS a few days ago and there is a young kid working there that is a serious bicyclist, will be on his college riding team this fall, got the impression it was mtn biking, he thought the electric bikes were awesome
has ridden some ebikes on the trails and had a blast
but everyone else in the shop- my generation- seems to be ehh about when i talk about how great this electric bike has been for me, how it got me back in riding, how confident i feel on it etc
they dont seem interested at all
definitely think the younger generation will be way more open to this on the trails etc
just like they tend to be with most things they are more openminded , especially for tech type stuff
even then i am in bright yellow reflective vest, lights all over the bike, etc
very scared of being on the road with cars
i love this dedicated bike loop/trail tucson has put in, you have to cross a road here and there but it is completely separated from roads
things are so congested now that i dont know where they would put the bikes lanes or make them considerably wider, which would be safer
it will be hard to do
thought this was funny from a mtn bike standpoint etc
in my LBS a few days ago and there is a young kid working there that is a serious bicyclist, will be on his college riding team this fall, got the impression it was mtn biking, he thought the electric bikes were awesome
has ridden some ebikes on the trails and had a blast
but everyone else in the shop- my generation- seems to be ehh about when i talk about how great this electric bike has been for me, how it got me back in riding, how confident i feel on it etc
they dont seem interested at all
definitely think the younger generation will be way more open to this on the trails etc
just like they tend to be with most things they are more openminded , especially for tech type stuff
That's kind of ironic because it seems like the vast majority of people buying the e-bikes are older people and not younger people. Oh well....
A bigger motor I would think may have value in certain instances. I have a 500 watt rear wheel drive motor on my bike which is kind of an urban mountain bike cross. I commute about 5 km one way each day to work. I live in the mountains so my ride for the most part is on a hill. One stretch of hill is about 1 km with between a varying 5 degree to 8 degree incline. The 500 watt rated motor does perfectly on this hill as I use level 2-3 on a 5 level controller for this incline with moderate pedaling. Now I could go to a bigger motor but I believe it would not be of any value as it would only decrease my level on the controller power required to do the same work. And I have no need to go faster either. I live in a small city in British Columbia, Canada and our laws in BC have a 32 km/hr. max speed on e-bikes or you need to register it as a motorized vehicle which then costs a bunch of money. E-bikes made here have a controlled speed built in on power. I could get a larger motor to drive me faster but then I am back to driving my motor cycle with all the extra gear, registration, insurance etc. etc. A larger faster motor has its merits, as a 250 watt in place of my 500 watt would be struggling on my commute hills. The larger faster I see as only good to a point because you get to a break over position where you spend needlessly on power not required. More powerful and faster for me is just more expensive and the world goes by in a blur.
This depends on where you live in the US - some areas are catching on quick and investing in bicycle infrastructure. I'm in the Minneapolis-St Paul area and we have loads of dedicated bike lanes and networks to get around the city. Check out the area on Google Maps with the bicycling layer turned on and see what's there. Also, Portland and Seattle are good for this with loads of innovative ideas.
I also see the concept of speed continuously being mentioned as a factor and not just in this thread. I've never had a conversation with anyone on a traditional bicycle who was concerned about speed per se (outside of people who race) - this is something I'm seeing in the e-bike world. Sure, someone might passively say "I can keep up with traffic" or something along those lines, but that is different than we are talking about here. Again, the intent of these bicycles is not to move you along at 40mph (or however fast you think is enough) to keep up with traffic, but rather to provide you some *assistance* with your existing pedaling of a bicycle. Most people usually figure out commuting routes that keep them out of traffic as much as possible anyway in my experience (which may not be everyone's and I accept that). People know that riding a bicycle is going to take longer than driving a car (in most cases) and that's usually factored into their daily time tables.
There are some differences between motorized gasoline vehicles versus electric, sure. The point is what are people's intended purpose behind using an e-bike. If a person is more concerned with speed and high power output because you want to keep up with traffic, my suggestion is that they might want to consider an alternate form of transportation. People opt for using a bicycle because it's practical, it's cheap (generally speaking), it's economical, it makes them feel better about the environment, exercise, and bicycles are generally more nimble for navigating congested areas and therefore allow you to avoid gridlock. An electric bike is an extension of those ideas and I don't think increasing the power output of the average bicycle is going to change any of that.
I've said it in other threads and I'll say it here too - this trend is going to continue and we are going to end up seeing regulations limiting what is allowed on these bicycles. I'm already reading of some states starting to crack down on them for these reasons. Again, this all purely in my own opinion
Well, well said. There ARE electric motorcycles available. Some here should consider them given what they want out of an ebike.
Agreed. I was interested in a dongle at one point last year. But as the stories came in about accidents and restrictions and then seeing how they are talked about here, (cruising at 30mph) i quickly came to realize I didn't want to be part of the problem.
Yes, restrictions are coming and nobody here is going to be happy about them.
Reap what ye sow. (not all of us, but enough)
Any restrictions put on ebikes will not relate at all to what we do when we ride, and have everything to do with what people talk about, just like all politics.
My point is, you cannot prevent restrictions by riding in a sane manner, unfortunately.
However I think that riding in an insane manner is more fun! Luckily that won't really do any damage.
My point is, you cannot prevent restrictions by riding in a sane manner, unfortunately.
However I think that riding in an insane manner is more fun! Luckily that won't really do any damage.
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