What is the ideal range on a single charge?

[Explorer-1]

I'm not the norm for sure, but i'd like 100km per charge. Which means if i carried an extra battery or the bike supported 2 batteries i'd be really set.

In my mind the more the merrier really, as long as the bike is carrying the weight. If you are using less cells, using lower capacity high discharge i think is still advisable on powerful bikes. The 40T is a good cell for high powered bikes, some of the high capacity cells will require an extra in parallel. The best thing is a frame designed to carry a large battery, not a battery adjusted to a frame.

 

[jharrell]

40-50 miles is usually the most I want to go, however the really has to be qualified with how fast and the terrain etc. So I guess the question is what does the Archon get in wh/mi at say 20mph on flat ground on a Hydra?

My current bike is a Juiced RCS with 996wh battery (52v 19.2ah) and the wh/mi can vary widely but seems to avg around 20 wh/mi when I am having fun cruising ~20mph on pavement and not trying to conserve. I also like to try and do 85% charges for my more frequent shorter rides and try to keep the battery above 20% on discharge.

My current battery seems just ok but honestly it would be probably nice to have about 1200wh so maybe dual batt option like a R&M Superdelite would be good for long rides.

 

[Haystacks]

Thanks.

Yes, we are doing pretty much the same thing (logically) what this guy is doing. Just trying to figure out what riders think .. hence the question.

Appreciate the link.

The files are on one of those cad file download places, i downloaded the ones i needed (redesigned endcaps) and closed it, but it sounds like you have the base cad files to tinker with anyway.

RE. Surveys,

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”​

Henry Ford.

I dont think you will struggle by offering your customers extended range/sufficient power for archon adventures, makes sense.

 

[pushkar]

Archon @1000W nominal does around 16Wh/mile (mixed use). So 40 miles is ~ 650Wh.
With Dual battery riders could get up to 1700Wh (20ah pack) , which is around 100 miles worth of riding

 

[Acme]

I like taking 3lbs. of the bike for 20% plus range. You can always bring an extra battery if you are going far

 

[jharrell]

Archon @1000W nominal does around 16Wh/mile (mixed use). So 40 miles is ~ 650Wh.
With Dual battery riders could get up to 1700Wh (20ah pack) , which is around 100 miles worth of riding

1700wh would be 32ah at 52v right? 16wh/mi would be great, I have to hold back and conserve to get that on my Juiced. Problem is you never get 650wh out of a 650wh pack and its not great to run the battery to 0 nor is it much fun, I get noticeable performance drop off once my pack is below 48v in the bottom third of the pack. Its real nice to have a pack big enough to keep the voltage up on a normal ride and have plenty of reserve.

 

[Haystacks]

Archon @1000W nominal does around 16Wh/mile (mixed use). So 40 miles is ~ 650Wh.
With Dual battery riders could get up to 1700Wh (20ah pack) , which is around 100 miles worth of riding

I've just realised that the extended case would allow me to use the 30ah pouch cells, thanks for starting this chain of thought, might be worth you considering too...

 

[Ayl]

@pushkar When do you think you'll have these batteries available, and will they require a different mounting attachment?

 

[Gionnirocket]

In my opinion.. The largest battery that can be practically implemented is what I would want.
My current battery is way oversized (17.5ah) for my daily ride and I use about 10 to 15% on my typical 20 mile run. But this give me a few advantages.
I can charge to 80% extending battery cycles.
If my plans change and I get to ride on a day that I hadn't planned to... I typically can do so without having to charge.
And on days where I'm out and about for much longer rides, I don't have to worry about taking a long a second battery that I would rarely use, would cost more and add the hassle of having to maintain.
And lastly, larger ah batteries tend to be more stable and less prone to over heating... a batteries worst enemy.
Just my two cents... down already 37% in today's market...

 

[Masejoer]

30 miles or more at 1500W. Ideally 40+ miles for some buffer on the upper and lower ends for cell longevity, and extra capacity for headwinds. Maybe 1.2kWh.

For me, 1500W is roughly 28mph/class 3 loaded up, on flat ground, with my large bike and wide road tires, rider, and drag figures.

The poll is a bit too vague. The battery size needed for the same range could double between a small cargo-less aero rider compared to a large touring or commuter rider. One battery is always more convenient than 2 or more.

 

[PedalUma]

I made the mistake of too big a battery on my first bike. It could easily go twice as far as my butt could, and was way heavier than necessary. That lesson learned, and knowing how far my butt can go at this point, 20-40 mile range is fine here - as long as that range is based on the reality it will actually make that range easily.

It is not just distance but also butt time in the saddle and the type of miles. We have big hills in the North Bay Wine Country plus trails. A reduction in weight pays off in a nicer experience. Handling is greatly improved. The bike becomes nimble, lithe. You are dancing with a ballerina and not big Bertha. Three hours is about too much.
Placement of weight is also just as important on a bike as it is with the ballast on a sailboat.

 

[jharrell]

Three hours is about too much.

I agree 3 hours is about all I can comfortably do currently with a nice seat and Kinekt seat post and hard tail with fat tires, but that is 45-60 miles at 15-20mph and my current 996wh battery is sagging pretty bad by the end of that on flat Florida trails in warm weather, 16wh/mi eats 800wh for 50miles.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I concur... 3 hours is about all the violation I can take in one sitting.
But take my planned ride for tomorrow. 2.5 hours out with then a 2 - 4 hour break before I return home. I'm glad that I don't have to think about charging during my travels. And if my legs turn to over cooked egg noodles on the ride home... I may even ghost ń throttle my way a bit

 

[AHicks]

I concur... 3 hours is about all the violation I can take in one sitting.
But take my planned ride for tomorrow. 2.5 hours out with then a 2 - 4 hour break before I return home. I'm glad that I don't have to think about charging during my travels. And if my legs turn to over cooked egg noodles on the ride home... I may even ghost ń throttle my way a bit

Nothing wrong with that potential in most people's minds. It's an OPTION some, without throttles, don't have!

 

[greeno]

Extreme side of the coin here. Got the Exess bike and I made a 34ahr 52v battery that fits inside the main triangle, weighs 17lbs by itself. Could I have made a smaller size? Sure but why?? Typically start off at 58.6v or so and after 10 miles of up and down single track I still have 56.5v or so. A lot of times rides are 25-30 miles total unless it's a specific longer trail out and back but after 30 miles I still have 52v wish or so in the bag. Which is still around 60%. Typically run level 2 unless it's a steep tech climb then I might jump up to 4 for the extra assist but then pull it back to 2 for the main run. We have a small mountain range out here in SD called Laguna Mts. and a desert below, probably 5k elevation drop from top of trail to bottom and we will start at the top and basically drop in and use maybe 2 volts to get to the bottom. But we use a lot bigger portion climbing our way back up. Usually start in the 58's and end in the 50's. Still get good assist when needed.
Couple of us did the run a week ago and ran into a couple of guys with bosch motor bikes that wanted to tag along, No sweat. Did the ride to the bottom and then headed back up and the 2 guys had to bail about 1/2 way up as their batteries weren't up to it.
So..... being nice guys we finished the ride and then drove their truck BACK DOWN TO THE DESERT FLOOR so they could get home. They did buy us drinks and lunch for our troubles AND they are looking at getting either a bigger battery or an extra to pack along.

Morale of the story is, better to be looking at it than looking for it.
Never have to usually charge up from lower end voltage so in my book size does make a difference.

 

[Jayaznpride]

Extreme side of the coin here. Got the Exess bike and I made a 34ahr 52v battery that fits inside the main triangle, weighs 17lbs by itself. Could I have made a smaller size? Sure but why?? Typically start off at 58.6v or so and after 10 miles of up and down single track I still have 56.5v or so. A lot of times rides are 25-30 miles total unless it's a specific longer trail out and back but after 30 miles I still have 52v wish or so in the bag. Which is still around 60%. Typically run level 2 unless it's a steep tech climb then I might jump up to 4 for the extra assist but then pull it back to 2 for the main run. We have a small mountain range out here in SD called Laguna Mts. and a desert below, probably 5k elevation drop from top of trail to bottom and we will start at the top and basically drop in and use maybe 2 volts to get to the bottom. But we use a lot bigger portion climbing our way back up. Usually start in the 58's and end in the 50's. Still get good assist when needed.
Couple of us did the run a week ago and ran into a couple of guys with bosch motor bikes that wanted to tag along, No sweat. Did the ride to the bottom and then headed back up and the 2 guys had to bail about 1/2 way up as their batteries weren't up to it.
So..... being nice guys we finished the ride and then drove their truck BACK DOWN TO THE DESERT FLOOR so they could get home. They did buy us drinks and lunch for our troubles AND they are looking at getting either a bigger battery or an extra to pack along.

Morale of the story is, better to be looking at it than looking for it.
Never have to usually charge up from lower end voltage so in my book size does make a difference.

I agree with that. Rather have it and not need it.

 

[PedalUma]

I agree with that. Rather have it and not need it.

This battery is about right for a cargo bike. I made it electric today. And it is getting this bell with the grips on the rack. The rack holds 240 pounds. The bike weighs 44 pounds. A little heavy, but given what it can haul that is okay. I did the electrical in white.

 

[6zfshdb]

Simple formula for the ideal range per charge:

Both your battery and your butt should give out at the same time.

 

[jharrell]

Simple formula for the ideal range per charge:

Both your battery and your butt should give out at the same time.

The problem is the amount of watt-hours need for a certain butt-hours varies significantly based on terrain, speed and temperature. So there is no simple way to account for that other than having much more battery than you actually need most of the time.

In an ideal world I have a 50 pound bike with 2000 wh and only do an 80% charge to 20% discharge most of the time but that going to require lithium batteries with probably 3x the energy density of the current ones, however the theoretical limit of lithium is about 10x the current so it may happen one day.

 

[AHicks]

The problem is the amount of watt-hours need for a certain butt-hours varies significantly based on terrain, speed and temperature. So there is no simple way to account for that other than having much more battery than you actually need most of the time.

In an ideal world I have a 50 pound bike with 2000 wh and only do an 80% charge to 20% discharge most of the time but that going to require lithium batteries with probably 3x the energy density of the current ones, however the theoretical limit of lithium is about 10x the current so it may happen one day.

Though I don't know this for a fact, I think many of us that have been riding a couple of years or longer, have a pretty good idea of what it's going to take for battery range for our purposes. I know that personally, my AVERAGE range is about 35 miles on a charge, under all of the conditions I normally ride in. Sure it will vary slightly under unusual conditions, but 35 miles is nearly twice as far as my butt wants to go, so it's a pretty "safe" target range for my required battery size - without being too excessive/heavy.

To get that range WILL depend on what bike I'm riding! The Ultra powered (mid drive) fatty will need all of it's 19.2ah to go that far (to date, still messing around here), while the 1000w MAC 12t (geared hub) city bike only needs a 14.5ah to do the same thing.

To carry around the weight/size of the battery required to double the range I'm getting now would make absolutely no sense here. Clearly that extra weight will affect me, and the bike, in a negative manner.

Point being, there's never going to be a universal battery size that's going to make everybody happy. There WILL be variables - too many to count variables......

From a bike manf's perspective, I think this is a great question to prevent offerings that are clearly out of touch with what's REALLY going on! -Al