Watt Wagons Ultimate Commuter Pro

[Feliz]

DDBB, ya...what TForan said. I have experience with the Nexus/Alfine 8 and I really like it but it won't take abuse or punishment, please ask your wife to be careful with the shifting. The other thing is and you probably know this but they MUST be kept properly adjusted, that's the two marks that have to be lined up.

The thing I find amazing is that Rohloff have never had a broken hub returned, that's according to them and that has to be amazing. I assume that doesn't include hubs that are worn out. With the Ultra, chains, sprockets and derailleurs would have to be replaced probably ( roughly ) every 2000 miles but with the Watt Wagon that will be avoided. I know with my Bafang mid drives things wear out a lot quicker than with other less capable motors and I ride like an old man......oh wait, I am an old man.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

The Ultra would blow it to pieces . I love the Rohloff but I would only use two or three gears. I wish they made a five speed.

One thing I noticed is that Bafang ultra puts out a lot of torque at any gear.
Systems like Bosch, Brose, Yamaha need the rider to be in correct gear to extract maximum torque but Ultra simply has too much brute force. It will make a mincemeat of 8/9/11 speed Nexus/Alfine systems.


But, Ultra is also less refined (smoother) compared to Yamaha or Brose. It's a bit raw.
If someone were to build a motor that is smooth like Yamaha yet has the power of Bafang ultra, it would be truly the pinnacle of E-bike tech. Even the TQ motor lacks the smoothness of Yamaha or Brose but comes very close.

The thing I find amazing is that Rohloff have never had a broken hub returned, that's according to them and that has to be amazing. I assume that doesn't include hubs that are worn out.

Rohloff has had some very minor issues (can be found on some German forums) because of improper application of Gates belt tension and with the new E14 setup but if properly setup, they are just the most reliable systems.

When you get your E-bike, I would recommend spending half hour making sure the belt tension and drive-train is properly seated and torqued and after that you never have to worry or clean the drive train on your UC Pro.

Potential places to shave costs:

1. Fixed front fork instead of a front suspension. Let the Kinnect do more of the work.
2. Material costs in frame as mentioned before.
3. Different screen. Not knowing what the costs are, but maybe something like the 500c or the 750c? I assume those are cheaper but I honestly have no idea if they are.
4. Move the following parts as optional upgrades or accessories
   1. ABUS lock
   2. Brooks saddle
   3. Origin Strongbow handlebar
   4. Ergon GP1 Grips
   5. Crankbrothers Pedals
   6. Cellphone holder

It's a shame that Rohloff doesn't make a lower geared or more affordable option as that could also help. The only other option I could think of for the drive train would be a Pinion gearbox with a hub drive but I've never had a chance to experiment with that kind of a setup.

Enviolo has a new groupset called "Sportive" and it specifically made for E-bikes and rated for 120Nm but I am not sure if they warranty the system for more than 500W.
https://www.enviolo.com/en/groupsets/Sportive

This will be the closest I can think of as a replacement for Rohloff. Everything else, falls short by a large margin.

 

[Feliz]

What I would be afraid of with Pushkar building bikes that are different and each one custom built is that he would have to increase prices dramatically defeating the purpose of this bike in the first place. I thought Henry Ford figured that out when he was building the model T. I would love a bike custom built to my specs but I could never afford it, that's why I purchased the bike Pushkar is producing.

Last winter I purchased a eProdigy Magic Pro and ask them to build it using a Gates belt and Alfine 8 IGH, something they had no experience with and had never done. MISTAKE.....they had no clue and it was a disaster, finally they had to hire Velofix to sort things out. eProdigy had been building bikes successfully for years and I wanted to try their proprietary mid drive which is awesome but can't compete with the newer offerings from Bafang. That's the last time I do something like that. Putting together a bike is not as easy as some people think and those that do have my respect.

 

[Diarmuid]

The Rohloff is one of the things that I consider essential to this bike's whole purpose of making something as maintenance free as possible. I'd only consider a Pinion as a replacement.

What I would be afraid of with Pushkar building bikes that are different and each one custom built is that he would have to increase prices dramatically defeating the purpose of this bike in the first place. I thought Henry Ford figured that out when he was building the model T. I would love a bike custom built to my specs but I could never afford it, that's why I purchased the bike Pushkar is producing.

Last winter I purchased a eProdigy Magic Pro and ask them to build it using a Gates belt and Alfine 8 IGH, something they had no experience with and had never done. MISTAKE.....they had no clue and it was a disaster, finally they had to hire Velofix to sort things out. eProdigy had been building bikes successfully for years and I wanted to try their proprietary mid drive which is awesome but can't compete with the newer offerings from Bafang. That's the last time I do something like that. Putting together a bike is not as easy as some people think and those that do have my respect.

Yeah, this is all brain storming.

 

[Feliz]

[QUOTE="Ravi Kempaiah
Rohloff has had some very minor issues (can be found on some German forums) because of improper application of Gates belt tension and with the new E14 setup but if properly setup, they are just the most reliable systems.

When you get your E-bike, I would recommend spending half hour making sure the belt tension and drive-train is properly seated and torqued and after that you never have to worry or clean the drive train on your UC Pro [/QUOTE]

Thanks Ravi,
Yes, too tight belt tension will cause premature bearing failure. I adjust the belt tension on my eProdigy using Gate's app and my iPhone and just tension the belt to the proper Hz, that's the only way I know of. I've only had to set the tension once and it hasn't budged since. I assume that's the only way and how Pushkar will do it.

 

[pushkar]

Pushkar - there is a typo in the description for the Brooks Saddle. Missing a "p."

saddle
The Brooks B-17 Imerial is an excellent saddle

This is like the perfect bike for me other than one thing. Are you planning on making a bike with wider tire clearance? Perhaps a 27.5 PLUS or Fat bike?

Thanks for the catch. I'll fix it shortly. Fixed!

No plans at this point. The issue is the following for us
1. it increases the fender width. I haven't found anything that gives good protection with 3 inches, and is somewhat light weight. There's a ton of aluminum things but nothing that looks elegant.
2. The rims and tires are heavier. Adding atleast 5 lbs to the bike.
3. There is not a lot of clearance to get the belt drive. It will work with chain though. We will have to switch to the wider spider (fat tire spider) for the belt clearance and that will mess up the Q factor.

We have to think through the geometry and riding styles better before we can make a mid fat within the same frame.

 

[DDBB]

Thankfully the nexus IGH is really easy to adjust, my wife? not so much.. She is doing better at shifting though but when I hear her bang a shift I'm afraid to say anything now after the numerous lectures I've given her. Her bike has shimano steps 6000 drive so I don't think it's too much torque for the IGH but letting off pedal pressure before shifting up OR down is essential. I'm assuming the same is true for the Rohloff hub if one wants it to last a long time

 

[pushkar]

Potential places to shave costs:

1. Fixed front fork instead of a front suspension. Let the Kinnect do more of the work.
2. Material costs in frame as mentioned before.
3. Different screen. Not knowing what the costs are, but maybe something like the 500c or the 750c? I assume those are cheaper but I honestly have no idea if they are.
4. Move the following parts as optional upgrades or accessories
   1. ABUS lock
   2. Brooks saddle
   3. Origin Strongbow handlebar
   4. Ergon GP1 Grips
   5. Crankbrothers Pedals
   6. Cellphone holder

It's a shame that Rohloff doesn't make a lower geared or more affordable option as that could also help. The only other option I could think of for the drive train would be a Pinion gearbox with a hub drive but I've never had a chance to experiment with that kind of a setup.

Thanks. This is very helpful. Here are some thoughts
1. Forks - IMO riders get too much feedback with the fixed forks, since the speeds are higher than normal. Also it didnt work for me in cold weather or inclement weather - too jarring and i didnt feel confident. There is a little trade off in efficiency, but switching to a good air fork made all the difference.
2. Frame - TBH, I don't have access to good AL designers and welders in the Boston area. I tried for over a year - the talent just doesn't exist. I have looked at other AL frames- getting them rated for up to 300lb riders will add ~10lbs to the bike.
3. The lock and the saddle are somewhat meaty items but I am not sure if they are moving the needle substantially.

 

[pushkar]

Thankfully the nexus IGH is really easy to adjust, my wife? not so much.. She is doing better at shifting though but when I hear her bang a shift I'm afraid to say anything now after the numerous lectures I've given her. Her bike has shimano steps 6000 drive so I don't think it's too much torque for the IGH but letting off pedal pressure before shifting up OR down is essential. I'm assuming the same is true for the Rohloff hub if one wants it to last a long time

You are right - Rohloff doesn't shift under any pressure. I typically let off for a quick second to shift it.

I have tried the Shimano 3 speed IGH as well. Other than the Rohloff, that is the only thing that has held up. It is not as smooth or efficient as the Rohloff, but it works.

 

[pushkar]

Hey everyone - please check out our Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/wattwagons/) .. we are preparing for our Guinness World Record attempt with Ravi on August 3/4 in Halifax Speedworld, Nova Scotia. I will be there with a few bikes for people to try. We will also be giving out free T-shirts !

 

[DDBB]

I wish that wasn't so far away!

 

[elect]

first, congrats for the bike, it's truly a beast

Anyway, I have a couple of ideas/questions:

1) what about a dual battery setup? How would that work? R&M bikes actually swap battery every ~5m.

Also, would it be possible to have a triangle 1500Wh battery and a second 880 Wh one on the top tube? This would bring a sexy range of almost 2.5KWh.. at my current consumption (~1KWh every week) this mean I could charge batteries less than twice a month, a dream!

2) what about an integrated hidden gps tracker somewhere in the titanium frame?

3) what about Europe?

4) Would it be possible to limit by default the motor to 25Kmh and unlock it on-request with a key combination?

 

[pushkar]

first, congrats for the bike, it's truly a beast

Anyway, I have a couple of ideas/questions:

1) what about a dual battery setup? How would that work? R&M bikes actually swap battery every ~5m.

Also, would it be possible to have a triangle 1500Wh battery and a second 880 Wh one on the top tube? This would bring a sexy range of almost 2.5KWh.. at my current consumption (~1KWh every week) this mean I could charge batteries less than twice a month, a dream!

2) what about an integrated hidden gps tracker somewhere in the titanium frame?

3) what about Europe?

1. My understanding is that the RM dual battery setup is actually a Bosch tech. RM has licensed that usage. It is hard to do natively unless deeply supported by the motor manufacturer. Those with more information and battery knowledge will know better than me on the ins and outs of the system.

2. Extended range - The battery needs to be designed from the ground up because nothing user mountable / unmountable exists in larger capacity. I believe even Luna fusion battery has to be secured with a bolt. The rest have to be in a bag type enclosure. It is hard to design quick release mountable version because the weight of the battery.

3. Because our platform is open, you can absolutely bring your own battery to fit the top tube. Please ensure those have Anderson powerpole connectors.

That being said, Satiator supercharger that comes standard with the Ultimate Commuter Pro actually works really well. Full top up in close to 2 hours. Charging is no longer a pain or a time consuming activity.

 

[pushkar]

first, congrats for the bike, it's truly a beast

Anyway, I have a couple of ideas/questions:
2) what about an integrated hidden gps tracker somewhere in the titanium frame?

3) what about Europe?

4) Would it be possible to limit by default the motor to 25Kmh and unlock it on-request with a key combination?

Ooh. GPS is a great idea. Have you seen providers that are reasonable ? I can tell you that our frames can take an embedded slim GPS (routing internally). Yay. If I find something that works I'd be happy to offer that.

We can ship to Europe. Great idea ! Battery will have to be shipped separately. Please PM me and I can give you an estimate of additional cost.

Yes the motor can be set to 25kph on the firmware. Users can also configure it right from the Bafang controller !

Awesome. Thanks.

 

[elect]

Actually I'm looking this in the long future, atm I'm totally happy with a 2017 R&M Charger

but I think it would be perfect if Court could make a review about it.. this will definitely a boost in terms of visibility and audience

 

[Feliz]

Good article on the Watt Wagon in the Boston Globe. https://www.bostonglobe.com/busines...juiced-bike/Y9Iza7KFkFyvzmzHhtFhyO/story.html

 

[pushkar]

Thanks @Feliz , we are very proud of what we are trying to do. Commuting is a really hard segment to launch into. I think the article get that right - it is not about speed, but rather reliability, ergonomics, performance and upgradability.

We are happy to get very positive feedback so far and most of the reviews will start to trickle out over the coming days / weeks.

 

[pushkar]

Actually I'm looking this in the long future, atm I'm totally happy with a 2017 R&M Charger

but I think it would be perfect if Court could make a review about it.. this will definitely a boost in terms of visibility and audience

Court has been very kind and helpful so far, and we hope he can do a review in early fall.

 

[DDBB]

A full review by Court would be great! I look forward to that

 

[smorgasbord]

I agree. I'd rather have a big integrated battery but it's not really feasible with today's tech.

Check out the M1 Spitzing Evolution, which can fit a 1050 watt-hour battery:


Of course, the price makes the watt-wagon look cheap.

What's the benefit of titanium frame?

If you want custom frames, titanium is the material of choice, as it's too expensive to build up one-off carbon fiber frames. And if you're getting a custom frame, the builder will not only custom-choose tubing lengths for proper fit, but also will choose diameter and wall thicknesses for the rider's weight. My (non-electric) road bike is a Seven Cycles Elium SG, which is part titanium, part carbon fiber, and was custom built for my size/weight.

But, that's not what's happening here. If you're mass producing a frame, then I think the best carbon fiber is dollar for dollar and pound for pound better than titanium, but I understand why a new business would rather start with titanium, and there are some advantages over CF in terms of resisting abuse. Also, I get a little wary when I see bikes built to handle 300 pound riders. Is that for all frame sizes? Typically, even with titanium, a frame build for 300 pound riders will be too stiff for a 115 pound rider. Maybe between the suspension fork and seat post it doesn't matter so much.


Separately, I was all excited the first time I got to test ride an R&M Delite with the E-14 Rohloff and belt drive. Then I went to tackle some hills. The Bosch motor auto-pauses when you shift, which can be really scary if you're on a steep hill going up slowly and then need to downshift more because the hill gets even steeper as you climb. I also got to test ride a Luna Apex with the grip-shift Rohloff, and while it's better in that the pausing is up to you, I found the grip shift pretty hard to turn and the shifting action sluggish. Now, I've read that the Rohloff shifts quickly, so maybe it just seems to shift slowly since you don't have the noise of the gears moving from cog to cog to let you know what's going on. The belt drive was nice and quiet, however, and lower maintenance is always a virtue. People who have the Rohloff love it, so maybe it's the kind of thing one needs more than an hour's test ride to judge properly.

At any rate, it's great to see bikes like the Watt Wagon come to life.