Using 2 Range Extenders on one long ride-best strategy?

[HLM]

For the Specialized Creo SL, when using the Range Extender (RE) one can opt to have the batteries used equally. But, when the point I want to reach requires using two REs what may be the best strategy?
I think that allowing both batteries to go down and then connecting the full second RE is best in that the power use on the Creo is programed to take from the higher charged battery when there's a difference in the state of charge.
Any other, hopefully better ideas or do you think this to be the best strategy?

 

[kahn]

For the Specialized Creo SL, when using the Range Extender (RE) one can opt to have the batteries used equally. But, when the point I want to reach requires using two REs what may be the best strategy?
I think that allowing both batteries to go down and then connecting the full second RE is best in that the power use on the Creo is programed to take from the higher charged battery when there's a difference in the state of charge.
Any other, hopefully better ideas or do you think this to be the best strategy?

I was wondering if you have learned anything new on this issue? I just posted a new thread. I opted in Settings to have the Range Extender deplete first, followed by the main battery. But ran into an issue. Here's part of what I posted in a new thread:

"In settings there are two ways to use the main and range extender battery. You can either set the bike to equally deplete both batteries in parallel or first deplete the Range Extender battery. I went into settings and set things so that the Range Extender depletes and then main battery. But with that enabled, yesterday when the Extender got down to about 10%, the motor/whatever suddenly went into power saving mode and climbing the hill became really labored and changing the power levels did nothing. I would expect that if it depletes or approaches depletion, the main battery would kick in. That would enable one to use a second range extender battery to extend riding distance even more. But if the bike steps down the power when only the range extender is getting low that would defeat the purpose of a second battery. I had to stop and unplug the Range Extender and then the bike (motor) became responsive again."

But I see in reading your reply, I guess do parallel depletion and then throw on a second range extender and allow the "system" to do its thing automatically and adjust to pull from the extender.

 

[HLM]

Hi Kahn,
No, I didn't learn a thing since my first post here and still have this question standing, without answers, but I changed my ideas about what to do, as follows:
As of now, without certainty as to how the Creo SL program would respond, my strategy is to first use the RE [Range Extender] solely and, when it depletes to 10%, reprogram Mission Control to take from them equally with the RE going down even lower (but without the power penalty you experienced) and then, when the RE is below 5%, switch to a fresh RE, using it until it goes down to a level equal to my main battery at which point I'll switch to using both equally.

Doing the above will, hopefully, maximize the range when using two RE. But I'm not sure if it's the best strategy.

I was wondering if you have learned anything new on this issue? I just posted a new thread. I opted in Settings to have the Range Extender deplete first, followed by the main battery. But ran into an issue. Here's part of what I posted in a new thread:

"In settings there are two ways to use the main and range extender battery. You can either set the bike to equally deplete both batteries in parallel or first deplete the Range Extender battery. I went into settings and set things so that the Range Extender depletes and then main battery. But with that enabled, yesterday when the Extender got down to about 10%, the motor/whatever suddenly went into power saving mode and climbing the hill became really labored and changing the power levels did nothing. I would expect that if it depletes or approaches depletion, the main battery would kick in. That would enable one to use a second range extender battery to extend riding distance even more. But if the bike steps down the power when only the range extender is getting low that would defeat the purpose of a second battery. I had to stop and unplug the Range Extender and then the bike (motor) became responsive again."

But I see in reading your reply, I guess do parallel depletion and then throw on a second range extender and allow the "system" to do its thing automatically and adjust to pull from the extender.

 

[6zfshdb]

Another consideration is the battery gauge. It can be difficult to tell when you've used half your charge when using both batteries together. Many gauges are not linear and knowing when to turn around might not be easy to determine. You could wind up without enough juice to get back.

Keeping the range extender in reserve might be a better idea on a long ride in case you misjudge the main batteries state of charge.

 

[kahn]

Hi Kahn,
No, I didn't learn a thing since my first post here and still have this question standing, without answers, but I changed my ideas about what to do, as follows:
As of now, without certainty as to how the Creo SL program would respond, my strategy is to first use the RE [Range Extender] solely and, when it depletes to 10%, reprogram Mission Control to take from them equally with the RE going down even lower (but without the power penalty you experienced) and then, when the RE is below 5%, switch to a fresh RE, using it until it goes down to a level equal to my main battery at which point I'll switch to using both equally.

Doing the above will, hopefully, maximize the range when using two RE. But I'm not sure if it's the best strategy.

Hey, thanks for the reply. That sounds like a reasonable way to address this. I was kind of surprised by the "reverse surge" of non-power on a steady uphill. I recalled reading that the system automatically throttles down but I was following a friend and kept pedaling but finally decided to dismount and unplug the Range Extender. I thought about reprogramming but that would have taken longer - getting out the phone, opening the app and then finding the setting to tweak.

Two additional thoughts on the Range Extender. I have regularly had trouble turning the "lock knob" on the plug at the bike socket. Just does not turn and I fiddle and finally it will turn. Is there a trick?

Second - it appears that the Range Extender Battery is in very short supply (none available) so that worrying about how to deal with discharge and throwing in a second Range Extender is a non-issue unfortunately.

And to

6zfshdb​

Yes, I am definitely familiar with the fact that none of these gauges are accurate enough to make some quick judgments. As a long ride enters the 3/4 or more mark, I start making power adjustments to save power for the motor and expend power in the legs (and pressure on the knees and hips!)

 

[Captain Slow]

I find all of this quite interesting though I don't use a RE. My question is, how long of a ride are you going on with 2 RE's? I'm not sure my butt could handle that.

How many hours are you in the saddle?

 

[kahn]

I find all of this quite interesting though I don't use a RE. My question is, how long of a ride are you going on with 2 RE's? I'm not sure my butt could handle that.

How many hours are you in the saddle?

Well, in my real life uses, so far, my old body probably uses more assist than some. So on the ride shown below. I was down to about 10% on both batteries and only did about 53 miles and about 2,800 feet of gain. They were hilly miles with some steeper climbs and I'm a bit, ahem, overweight. The stats show about five hours but subtract 45 minute and 30 minute ferry rides and about 40 minutes for lunch. So 2 1/2 or 3 hours. I was a bit concerned and I could feel the motor throttle down on that ride, too near the end. Again, real world does not match Specialized ideal range in my case.

 

[Captain Slow]

Oh, ok yeah that's a good length for a ride. When I saw two RE's I was thinking, geez is that like a 10-12 hour ride, that's crazy. I know some people do it, but no way I could dream of it.

 

[kahn]

Oh, ok yeah that's a good length for a ride. When I saw two RE's I was thinking, geez is that like a 10-12 hour ride, that's crazy. I know some people do it, but no way I could dream of it.

Well, in the good old days, I did a number of Century rides (100 miles) and while there were breaks, they lasted a good long time, perhaps six hours or maybe more. We were never speed demons, so, yes, there were hours in the saddle.

But as I commented to my friend the other day, I don't think I have any Centuries in me, electric assist or not. But 60 or so miles, perhaps and depending on terrain, it might require ANOTHER Range Extender. I think I could have gotten another 8 miles out of the combo last week but it might have been close. While the Creo can be pedaled with zero power, if there's a rise, I am going to feel it.

 

[Rincon]

…the power use on the Creo is programed to take from the higher charged battery when there's a difference in the state of charge.

How do you know that? I’ve never seen that in Specialized’s documentation. It makes sense, but I’ve only read documentation that says the Creo pulls power equally, not preferentially.

 

[Captain Slow]

Well, 62 miles is a metric century ....................

 

[HLM]

The ride I'm planning is 72 miles. I've tweaked the system to obtain 1-1/2% of battery per mile on level one and 2-1/4% per mile on level 2. Level 3 is 100% and is used only for short times on very steep hills. If I'm VERY assiduous, I can shut the electricity off while going downhill (I have a two button handlebar mounted controller that makes changing levels very easy, safe and quick).
One alternative is to simply stop for lunch near a bicycle shop where I can do a 45 minute to one hour charge and that oughta do it. Carrying the charger is lighter than a battery but the ride will take longer and, where time is an issue, that is problematic.
As to accurately predicting the battery usage, I have a Garmin that reads out the percentage remaining and it's very accurate. It adds the extra battery so that it reads 150% at the start, 100% for the main battery plus 50% for the RE. I do the simple math to determine what percentage I'm getting per mile to estimate my range. Note, I will reduce 5% of the battery power while estimating the range since I think running the batteries lower than 5% is very bad for battery health long term.
The later Garmin units have a utility that is dedicated to e-bike battery use and that totally deals with any range questions on the fly.

 

[PDoz]

Posts on other forums about the levo sl seem to indicate that you can preferentially deplete the RE , but when it gets down to 20% the bike switches to limp home / lower power. At this stage, people advise removing the re , resetting everything and riding on the main battery.

I'd wonder if you could deplete 2xRE down to 20% each , then running on just the main down to 20%? Juggling both re's and the main battery for the reaming 20% of each makes my head hurt....that's 136 wh in limp home mode....just thinking about it is painful

 

[HLM]

Posts on other forums about the levo sl seem to indicate that you can preferentially deplete the RE , but when it gets down to 20% the bike switches to limp home / lower power. At this stage, people advise removing the re , resetting everything and riding on the main battery.

I'd wonder if you could deplete 2xRE down to 20% each , then running on just the main down to 20%? Juggling both re's and the main battery for the reaming 20% of each makes my head hurt....that's 136 wh in limp home mode....just thinking about it is painful

I realize that, officially, there's the "limp" mode which is supposed to switch on at 20% or so. Fact is, for my system (Creo SL Carbon Comp), this doesn't occur until under 10% and, from what I understand, the limp mode is what was programed for ECO, not sure though. If that's true then one can Mission Control ECO mode into something else, yes?

 

[PDoz]

Interesting concept - adjusting eco up so I can limp quicker!

You have to wonder how hard the IT guys were sniggering when they decided the less potent option should be called limp

 

[HLM]

Sorry for the long wait in the reply (didn't see it). I got that information both from online somewhere and directly from Specialized help in direct communications. I've noticed that, when starting with a widely different battery charge value, that over time this value difference is reduced while riding. This would tend to confirm this, yes?

How do you know that? I’ve never seen that in Specialized’s documentation. It makes sense, but I’ve only read documentation that says the Creo pulls power equally, not preferentially.

 

[PDoz]

A good time for an update on this - I found adjusting the eco setting to something useful (25/75) worked until the last km of a ride, at which stage the bike decided it knew better than me and dropped back to a true eco. There must be some impressive electronics / failsafe systems on these bikes

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Note, I will reduce 5% of the battery power while estimating the range since I think running the batteries lower than 5% is very bad for battery health long term.

Absolutely correct!

As to accurately predicting the battery usage, I have a Garmin that reads out the percentage remaining and it's very accurate. It adds the extra battery so that it reads 150% at the start, 100% for the main battery plus 50% for the RE. I do the simple math to determine what percentage I'm getting per mile to estimate my range.

Wahoo shows the battery percentage differently. It is, e.g., 100/100%.

How do you know that? I’ve never seen that in Specialized’s documentation. It makes sense, but I’ve only read documentation that says the Creo pulls power equally, not preferentially.

It is quite interesting to see (on Wahoo) how the system is balancing both batteries! Like, in the 'discharge equally' mode, have the main battery at 50% and add a fresh RE. RE is solely used as long as its charge does not get close to the 50%. (It might work a little bit differently in Turbo mode when high current is required by the motor).

 

[Rincon]

Sorry for the long wait in the reply (didn't see it). I got that information both from online somewhere and directly from Specialized help in direct communications. I've noticed that, when starting with a widely different battery charge value, that over time this value difference is reduced while riding. This would tend to confirm this, yes?

Yes, that’s correct. That’s the way it works. Both batteries are drained to equilibrium regardless of their initial charge states. I got a definitive answer from Nubnub last July. He was correcting some misinformation. Thanks.

 

[HLM]

For the Specialized Creo SL, when using the Range Extender (RE) one can opt to have the batteries used equally. But, when the point I want to reach requires using two REs what may be the best strategy?
I think that allowing both batteries to go down and then connecting the full second RE is best in that the power use on the Creo is programed to take from the higher charged battery when there's a difference in the state of charge.
Any other, hopefully better ideas or do you think this to be the best strategy?

I'm replying to myself years later but this is how I do this:
One caveat, depending how you've programmed your battery use on the Eco, Sport and Turbo modes, the figures I give here will be different.

I've determined that, for the riding I do, the combination of Main and Extender batteries (EB) use 1-1/2 % per mile. When I am going over 60 miles, unless I purposely opt to use a lot more ECO mode than I normally would, I bring two EBs.

If I use only my Main Battery I get 2% per mile which means that the EB, when used alone, will get (for me) 4% per mile.
My strategy is to first use only my EB for the first 22 miles (leaving enough juice left in the EB to reduce any low power damage). At that point I will replace the first EB with my 2nd EB and switch the whole system to deplete equally for another 60 miles, max, in the typical scenario I ride in.

Anything different relegates me to ride in ECO mode, rather than SPORT, far more than I typically would.