Turbo Vado 2 4.0 or 5.0 or 6.0?

[Jeremy McCreary]

This whole thread is making my head hurt. I haven't a notion what all the maths means here, haven't the brain for it, start seeing blurry!

Don't feel bad. It's having the same effect on me, and for better or worse, I DO have the head for this stuff — apparently in exchange for lots of other things I definitely DON'T have a head for.

Guess that's why the universe invented division of labor.

All I know is I can get up any 20% even 25% gradient on my 5 year old Vado SL with 36/11-46. Once you have low enough gears & a bit of patience and a good line, that puny 35nm motor gets the job done. Would love to try the Creo 2 and feel the difference. Or compare to TQ40 & 60. So many good options these days.

Constantly astounded at how good a climber the SL 1 is with, as you say, patience and the right gearing. But like you, I'd love to try the alternatives.

 

[mcdenny]

Do think it's possible the whole notion of "boost" is something Specialized marketing department thought up to convey a sense of how powerful the motor is in a way that would be meaningful to experienced bike riders?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Do think it's possible the whole notion of "boost" is something Specialized marketing department thought up to convey a sense of how powerful the motor is in a way that would be meaningful to experienced bike riders?

Not. It is a universal concept for mid-drive motors. The Boost (Assist Factor) is the multiplier for your leg input power to give the mechanical power* delivered by the motor to its spindle. While Specialized says, e.g., 4x, others such as Yamaha or Bosch would say 400%. Meaning, your 100 W of input would be assisted by the true motor power of 400 W if the Max Motor Power would be at least the latter value. That is only possible at a certain pedalling cadence. (Mid-drive motors love spinning).

What makes Specialized pretty special is the company has introduced the second parameter, the Max Motor Power Cap very early, while other brands didn't limit the motor power in their beginnings. Capping the motor power allows for a more economic ride regarding the battery consumption.

Suggestions on Custom Mode Settings is the most useful section of the new Support document.
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*) Some e-bikes are PAS (Pedal Assistance). As you start pedalling, the motor starts. It is an On-Off switch. Other e-bikes have Torque Assist: the harder you stomp on the pedals the more motor power you get. Good mid-drive motors are -- as Jeremy calls them (I think) -- Leg Power Assist ones. Your leg power is a product of the feet torque and the cadence.

 

[stompandgo]

Bosch Smart System does something similar with adjustable pedal dynamics. By reducing dynamics and assistance to Lower, you get pretty much the same thing.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Bosch Smart System does something similar with adjustable pedal dynamics. By reducing dynamics and assistance to Lower, you get pretty much the same thing.

It was certainly not present in 2017 Is there a comprehensive Motor Power Cap in the BES? Like moving the slider to limit the Peak Motor Power to 50%?

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

*) Some e-bikes are PAS (Pedal Assistance). As you start pedalling, the motor starts. It is an On-Off switch. Other e-bikes have Torque Assist: the harder you stomp on the pedals the more motor power you get. Good mid-drive motors are -- as Jeremy calls them (I think) -- Leg Power Assist ones. Your leg power is a product of the feet torque and the cadence.

Just for the record, the term pedal assist system (PAS) started out, at least in the engineering literature, as a much-needed catch-all for ANY kind of pedal assist — cadence-sensing, torque-sensing, power-sensing, you name it.

And I think PAS is still most useful as a generic term.

But many, including @Stefan Mikes , now use "PAS" as synonymous with the simplest on-off form of cadence-sensing assist. Maybe because that became the most common kind of PAS in the US and elsewhere.

Too bad. We still need a generic term covering all kinds of pedal assist. And we had a perfectly good one — one that said exactly what it means. And now we have this confusion to contend with.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

power-sensing

That's it!

 

[RunForTheHills]

Just for the record, the term pedal assist system (PAS) started out, at least in the engineering literature, as a much-needed catch-all for ANY kind of pedal assist — cadence-sensing, torque-sensing, power-sensing, you name it.

And I think PAS is still most useful as a generic term.

But many, including @Stefan Mikes , now use "PAS" as synonymous with the simplest on-off form of cadence-sensing assist. Maybe because that became the most common kind of PAS in the US and elsewhere.

Too bad. We still need a generic term covering all kinds of pedal assist. And we had a perfectly good one — one that said exactly what it means. And now we have this confusion to contend with.

PAS is a generic term and cadence sensor or torque sensor is more specific. However, I think cheap Chinese bikes that use cadence sensors will simply list PAS as a feature and manufacturers with bikes that have torque sensing will call that out to differentiate themselves from the low end "PAS" bikes.

 

[stompandgo]

It was certainly not present in 2017 Is there a comprehensive Motor Power Cap in the BES? Like moving the slider to limit the Peak Motor Power to 50%?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Not the motor power though?

 

[stompandgo]

Torque

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Torque

Not the same?
I know the max motor power of my 1.2s motor is 520 W. If I set the cap at 50%, I know the motor power won't exceed 260 W. Now, the torque and power are related by the rpm. Is setting the motor torque same as setting the motor power? How does the relationship with the rpm look like there?

 

[stompandgo]

You can vary the assist%.

I didn't say it was exactly the same. I said it can do pretty much the same thing.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The latest Bosch systems certainly allow the user to totally control the motor with so many installable Assist Modes and so many parameters. The problem is, Bosch systems are not comprehensive; starting from the choice of the Assist Modes to be installed by the dealer; through Static, Dynamic or any other special modes I already forgot the names of; to so many adjustable parameters which are difficult to understand, such as Pedal Dynamics. Catalyzt is a good example of a person who got that fifth generation fighter plane and could not understand what choices to make.

Specialized has chosen a comprehensive approach. There are only two major characteristics of its systems:

• Trail Tuning for their e-MTBs
• Street Tuning for all other e-bikes.

Trail Tuning offers several controllable parameters as mountain e-bike riders need things such as controlling the Overrun, define the delay from the pedal push to the motor engaging and several more I'm even not interested with. Street Tuning riders get only these controllable parameters:

• Ease % (the percentage of max assist)
• Motor Power % (the cap on the top motor power)

For obvious reasons, the Street Tuning does not allow features such as Overrun (motor propelling the e-bike without pedalling) or Zero Cadence (immediate power delivery with the foot just pushing the pedal before the crank rotation even happens).

These two controllable parameters allow a regular rider to control the nature of the motor assistance and set up many scenarios as described in the table I linked above. Moreover, Specialized riders can statically or dynamically vary the motor behaviour as they ride, operated by Micro Tune via the handlebar remote. And... all Specialized Turbo e-bikes made since 2017 are controlled by a single app: The Specialized. It works for all motors, battery and controller systems. I could mention the LEV ANT+ compatibility as well as the Smart Control allowing for automatic motor control to make a trip on the battery based on criteria such as Distance/Elevation Gain or Ride Time or HR Threshold. (Bosch has made a kind of Smart Control based on the planned route only recently)

The reason Jeremy and McDenny discuss the little details of the Specialized SL 2 system is they are interested in the actual performance watt by watt. I doubt you could do any of those calculations for a Bosch E-Bike.

 

[stompandgo]

So what? I'm a retired electrical engineer. I understand what is being discussed. I have no need for it. Anyone that wants to dive into it at level, have at it. Enjoy it. Embrace it. Live it.
For all but folks like them, Bosch provides all an e-bike rider needs to tune their drive unit to their strength, terrain, and riding style. Most of our customers never touch them. My HPR50 only has three assist levels. I have been tuning them by feel. It's going to take more time and more rides to get them right.

Specialized is doing what Bafang does with their drive units, allow multi-parameter, granular tuning beyond user level settings. That's great.

 

[BlackHand]

Not the motor power though?

The video Stomp linked was older, I believe.

I doubt you could do any of those calculations for a Bosch E-Bike.

Based on what I'm reading here, it seems quite a bit simpler with Bosch at least for the static modes. I don't need to know the boost factor to calculate that Eco, which is 60%, will give me 60 watts for every 100 watts I put in.

Anyways back to your regularly scheduled Spec reverse engineering...