touring strategies

[Chancelucky2]

For some time, I've been planning to do a credit card tour from the RTP area in North Carolina to Knoxville, Tennessee (roughly 350 miles according to Boogle maps' bike routes). I'm hoping to average a little over 70 miles/day and will be relatively lightly loaded (tools, change of clothes or two, various electronic items, water, snacks, and second battery). Right now, I'm waiting for Social Distancing and travel restricitons to end, hopefully some time before it gets really hot.

Anyway, as I've been doing trial rides, I've been trying to stay in eco as much as I can to maximize distance. I've only used tour for relatively long hills on the way home. Some of that is a carryover from the fact that my first e-bike only had a single 400wh Bosch battery. Range on tour wasn't terrible, but it wasn't going to work. I now have a bike with 2 Bosch 500 wh batteries and better range in general (drop bars, thinner tires). I can actually do 75 miles in tour with the 2 batteries, at least until I hit the mountains. In any case, I'd likely still do some of it in eco and with the motor off. I'm also finding that it's really not my lungs and legs that wear out, it's my rear, hands, and back. Yes, I know about suspension seat posts, etc.

It seems like going faster and letting the e-bike be an e-bike rather than preserving every last watt might make more sense. For those with multiple batteries who have toured, are you hypermiling or minimizing time in the saddle?

 

[Hectors Ghost]

For some time, I've been planning to do a credit card tour ...

It seems like going faster and letting the e-bike be an e-bike rather than preserving every last watt might make more sense. For those with multiple batteries who have toured, are you hypermiling or minimizing time in the saddle?

You have the same issue that most riders that are trying to do ebike touring have on production ebikes, limited range @ full weight, or having to kill yourself like any long-distance tour rider on a standard bike does. 1000W (battery storage) isn't enough in my opinion, I have 3 28-35Ah lithium packs and tour with a pair of them. With only 2 500W batteries you have to fully charge and fully deplete them to get the range you want, and that's a bad thing for lithium packs. 70 miles is a long ride on a fully-loaded tour bike regardless of having assist or not, and you miss so much moving that far without taking the time to enjoy it. I suggest you get a couple of 30Ah packs so you have the ability to go further than you will need/want to in a single ride. Also, get a Grin Satiator so you can baby them along the way. I think in terms of range but also in hours on the bike. I want to be able to be on the bike for 10 to 12 hours over the day if I choose to. One of the ways I do that is with a really comfortable seat. https://photos.app.goo.gl/o17QJ2FkCrPbGK2E8 When this seat wears to the point of needing replacement (over 10K miles and no signs of wear other than the lettering) I will get something like this... https://us.selleitalia.com/en/saddles/t3-flow/. As far as hands and back are concerned it's about having the ability to dial in the riding position, your posture in the saddle, really well. An adjustable stem can help with that. https://photos.app.goo.gl/XKPPZLHUZ9scMnd87 Combine the movement of the stem with a set of bars that allow multiple handholds and you should be able to get the best riding position for you. I can stop and change the angle in 2 mins with an Allen, pop a couple of aspirin and ride on.

You got a bike with "drop bars, thinner tires" to maximize range (like riding a non-assisted bike) and are now suffering the consequences of that choice a less comfortable long duration ride. In my opinion, an ebike for touring should have 26" X 2.5" wheels. Anything more narrow is a pain in the ass on gravel surfaces, let alone snow, sand, or mud... anything larger you pay for with more rolling resistance and diminished range. Also, remember that moving at 25 to 30 mph on a heavily loaded bike has a whole new set of physics. When I am loaded with panniers, bar-bags, and trailer if I can maintain 10 to 15 mph I'm happy. Wind also becomes much more of a factor when hauling gear. It's not as fun moving under a load as it is when you ride light. Riding from motel to motel shouldn't be a real problem if that's what you're aiming for.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

It seems like going faster and letting the e-bike be an e-bike rather than preserving every last watt might make more sense. For those with multiple batteries who have toured, are you hypermiling or minimizing time in the saddle?

Yes to both.

Sometimes it makes sense to just put the bike on ROAR! and get it all over with -- that might include lousy miserable weather, high-traffic roads with poor shoulders and poor sight lines, and impossibly long and steep hills (though what qualifies as impossibly long or impossibly steep probably depends a lot on you or your bike).

In other times or situations I usually run in eco or tour. On an "average" day probably 80 percent of the distance is in eco or tour.

On an acoustic touring bike I find (at least in the hilly places I like to ride) that 35-45 miles per day, day in and day out, is plenty -- sure, I can ride more than twice that but I will be wrecked the next day so I find the sustainable pace to again, be that 35-45 miles per day. In gentler terrain that number might double. On an electric bike I find reasonable, sustainable days to be between 55 and 75 miles. Every now and then there will be a shorter or a longer day but that range is remarkably stable.

The other observation I would make is that bike touring, on either an electric or acoustic bike, is a psychological game. Riding all day on busy highway shoulders, even if they are ten feet wide, is a pretty dispiriting exercise and bluntly gets old really fast. On the other hand, riding on lightly traveled country roads, even if they take you longer and involve steeper hills and poorer road surfaces, are a lot more fun and a lot more interesting to ride.

 

[Chancelucky2]

When I used to tour on conventional bikes, the first two-three days was the key. Once you got past day 3, whatever pace you sustained to that point could be maintained. Interestingly, there was a youtube thing where a guy was comparing how much further he could go on an EMTB than on a conventional MTB on trails. It wasn't clear if he ran out of battery or out of his own energy, but he wound up doing 33% more distance on the emtb. It's less of a difference than you might think, but it's pretty significant. While I'd love for batteries to improve, I suspect other parts of me will wear out before my batteries do on tour. While I expect to tour at speeds resembling conventional bike speeds, there are always times on tour when you're trying to finish out a day before it gets dark, trying to get some place before ti closes, etc. It'll be nice to have the option of going faster.

 

[Hectors Ghost]

When I used to tour on conventional bikes, the first two-three days was the key. Once you got past day 3, whatever pace you sustained to that point could be maintained. Interestingly, there was a youtube thing where a guy was comparing how much further he could go on an EMTB than on a conventional MTB on trails. It wasn't clear if he ran out of battery or out of his own energy, but he wound up doing 33% more distance on the emtb. It's less of a difference than you might think, but it's pretty significant. While I'd love for batteries to improve, I suspect other parts of me will wear out before my batteries do on tour. While I expect to tour at speeds resembling conventional bike speeds, there are always times on tour when you're trying to finish out a day before it gets dark, trying to get some place before ti closes, etc. It'll be nice to have the option of going faster.

I just did 70 miles (1666 ft ascent) pulling a single wheel suspension trailer with about 45 lbs of misc. gear, 60+ lbs on the bike (all on the front end... panniers and bar-bags). Moving speed was 13.4 mph... slower than when I just ride a loaded bike without the trailer, and Way slower than with her unloaded. The battery I used is a new 35Ah lithium triangle pack I got from DHgate. I started at 56.7V (86.7% charge) and ended at 50.1V (46% charge left). That makes it seem like I would be able to roll another 30+ miles without dipping below 20% but it's deceptive. It becomes extremely noticeable when the charge drops. After 65 miles I have to work harder because of the drop off in amperage. I'm guessing more like 60 miles on 60% pack capacity with a fully loaded bike but that still gives me a range of 120 miles with two packs. Having another pack in the trailer is fantastic psychologically it lets me push myself harder than even knowing it's there to use. As far as your reference in comparing the range on bike-vs-ebike... it all comes down to speed, or actually lack of speed. For touring keep the speed down, use your gears, never try to run up a hill (young bull/old bull mentality).

13 new items by Brian Bassett

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[john peck]

For some time, I've been planning to do a credit card tour from the RTP area in North Carolina to Knoxville, Tennessee (roughly 350 miles according to Boogle maps' bike routes). I'm hoping to average a little over 70 miles/day and will be relatively lightly loaded (tools, change of clothes or two, various electronic items, water, snacks, and second battery). Right now, I'm waiting for Social Distancing and travel restricitons to end, hopefully some time before it gets really hot.

It seems like going faster and letting the e-bike be an e-bike rather than preserving every last watt might make more sense. For those with multiple batteries who have toured, are you hypermiling or minimizing time in the saddle?

I can think of no better way to be 'socially distanced' than riding down a quiet country road.
(70 mi days, you must have some saddle )

 

[Chancelucky2]

I can think of no better way to be 'socially distanced' than riding down a quiet country road.
(70 mi days, you must have some saddle )

I'm honestly not sure how quiet these roads will be. One of the issues with credit card touring is that additional days
can get expensive (motel, meals, etc.) 70 miles/day may be optimistic. Finding out is part of the fun. One of my bigger worries is that finding places to charge batteries other than motel rooms just isn't that easy right now and it may not be easy for a while. It's also surprisingly difficult to find public bathrooms these days. In my county, they've closed all the public park bathrooms. Restaurants and coffee shops are take out only, so you generally can't use the bathroom. Even service stations frequently won't let you use the facilities. I have a friend who does logistics for a trucking company and she says that it's been really difficult for the drivers. They don't know where they can stop for bathroom or food breaks, so keeping to a schedule can be quite difficult.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

I too have been trying to work out touring during a plague. It doesn't seem at all simple.

I think hostels and hiker-biker campsites are basically out of the question for the duration of the emergency. And hotel/motel options in the small towns I prefer to travel through are much more likely to not be open or open on a very limited basis. The most likely scenario for me this year is going to be more limited trips.

Apparently the hotel industry is moving fast on setting up techniques and technology to sanitize rooms, so at least I won't have to carry a gallon of bleach and rolls of shop towels to sanitize the room when I arrive.

 

[Hectors Ghost]

Why not do a summer of overnighters and weekenders? You might be surprised what's within a 50 miles radius of you, let alone 70 miles. The best way to set your bike is to set up camp time after time after time. It helped me get things in the optimal place on the bike and determine the items I want with me always, and the stuff I can't take with me except locally. Setting up camp a few dozen times teaches you how to do it without thinking... like after 10 hours on the bike and in the dark. I can ride to an overnighter, pack up and ride to another location and stop off for a shower at home on the way if I want. I'm lucky in that I have access to military bases and can always find somewhere to sleep on them. A closed campground is a great place to spend a night or 6. Food isn't that hard for just a few days. Start off with take-out you buy on the way, then whatever you are used to that's packaged, the normal biker fare. What's had is eating well on a bike, vegetables are heavy, if they aren't heavy they're expensive. A hotel room is always going to be the dirtiest place you will stay regardless of this particular virus.

 

[john peck]

Yes to both.

Sometimes it makes sense to just put the bike on ROAR! and get it all over with -- that might include lousy miserable weather, high-traffic roads with poor shoulders and poor sight lines, and impossibly long and steep hills (though what qualifies as impossibly long or impossibly steep probably depends a lot on you or your bike)
Restaurants and coffee shops are take out only, so you generally can't use the bathroom. Even service stations frequently won't let you use the facilities. I have a friend who does logistics for a trucking company and she says that it's been really difficult for the drivers. They don't know where they can stop for bathroom or food breaks, so keeping to a schedule can be quite difficult.

Charging is indeed an issue. Open motels is another. I can get by with a bivvy & a tarp, but I'm gettin old & the ground
ain't gettin' any softer. The days when I could do 70+ miles belong to another century. Not sure i can still look to the kindness
of charitable women of the road. I've become somewhat toothless & balding. At least the state parks here have opened. I may
be able to slip in & stealth charge.. or pay...if I have to. I don't know what's happening in Orygun; think they're still closed.
Folks here today were out & about as if there had been no look down. Lots of cyclists on the road today; I rode past a touch
football game at the park.
Marinas look like a possible charge stations, but the Orygun outback seems iffy for now. The Coast from Aberdeen on down
is a pretty flat ride 'til ya get past Seaside, OR. From there on down 101 gets real scary in peak season. I should have gone in April.
Ain't no flat riding around here, & i'm bored to death with what's local. Any day now I'm gonna load the bike & take off with
3 batteries.

 

[dblhelix]

I'm honestly not sure how quiet these roads will be. One of the issues with credit card touring is that additional days
can get expensive (motel, meals, etc.) 70 miles/day may be optimistic. Finding out is part of the fun. One of my bigger worries is that finding places to charge batteries other than motel rooms just isn't that easy right now and it may not be easy for a while. It's also surprisingly difficult to find public bathrooms these days. In my county, they've closed all the public park bathrooms. Restaurants and coffee shops are take out only, so you generally can't use the bathroom. Even service stations frequently won't let you use the facilities. I have a friend who does logistics for a trucking company and she says that it's been really difficult for the drivers. They don't know where they can stop for bathroom or food breaks, so keeping to a schedule can be quite difficult.

In my home state, not all counties will “re-open” at the same time. The gov also keeps reminding that any sign of spike/ new wave means reverting to lockdown once we “re-open.” I’d hate to be in a rural county and hear about a new lockdown. I don’t expect public water sources to open for a very long time.

 

[john peck]

I just did 70 miles. For touring keep the speed down, use your gears, never try to run up a hill (young bull/old bull mentality).

13 new items by Brian Bassett

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Heck, that rig looks like a bloody Winnebago,; does it have a toilet & a shower? Gadzooks, I'd hate trying to pedal it
without power. I've got an el cheapo single wheel that converts to two with a couple hose clamps; maybe I
should try going that route. The problem with going bare bones is going bare bones. How much was your 35ah pack
& where ya get it? Also, how long to charge? Your rig looks like it weighs as much as mine with just me & the bike.
(still built like an offensive lineman)

 

[Chancelucky2]

"Infrastructure" is a surprisingly delicate thing. Normally, there are so many ways to find a bathroom, water, a place to recharge an e-bike battery, those of us who tour on pavement might
have to think about it some, but we don't have to think that hard. I agree that multi-day tours may not be practical for a while. Oddly, I'm probably riding my bike more often and for longer distances
during the shutdown than I have in years. Since I can't vary where I'm going quite as much as I like, I've taken to rotating my bikes: e-bike one day, mountain bike the next, road bike the day after that. Anything
longer than 20 or if I'm picking things up, I tend to take the e-bike.

 

[Hectors Ghost]

Heck, that rig looks like a bloody Winnebago,; does it have a toilet & a shower? Gadzooks, I'd hate trying to pedal it
without power. I've got an el cheapo single wheel that converts to two with a couple hose clamps; maybe I
should try going that route. The problem with going bare bones is going bare bones. How much was your 35ah pack
& where ya get it? Also, how long to charge? Your rig looks like it weighs as much as mine with just me & the bike.
(still built like an offensive lineman)

I thought of carrying a folding toilet seat but ya just can't carry everything can ya? But I do have a shower a Nemo Helio pump shower and that I won't give up. She is more than you would want to ride fully loaded without assist but stripped down I have done 40 miles. 35Ah packs are $500 to $700 dollars now with Corona rolling around. Look at DHgate and you will find the size and shape you want. I highly recommend EM3ev but they seem to be changing over to the new cells and with their new water-proof case and can't get more than 20Ah inside. Hopefully, they will later this year. 20Ah's takes between 3 and 4 hours to charge @ 8A. Big batteries can be charged "faster" than small ones without stressing the pack or overloading the BMS. Yesterday (100 miles) I kept forgetting I had the trailer and I ride so often with the front-loaded that I don't even notice it until I ride unloaded, them it feels freakishly light.

 

[john peck]

Wouldn't it be nice if cafes or other business installed bike charging stations coin-op with a little
keyed locker. On 'New Atlas' I've read some promising development for batteries that will have
4 times current capacity, lighter, & charge in 5 minutes, Gawd, that would be so great!!!
Imagine my 13ah at 52ah. range would cease to be an issue.

 

[Hectors Ghost]

Wouldn't it be nice if cafes or other business installed bike charging stations coin-op with a little
keyed locker. On 'New Atlas' I've read some promising development for batteries that will have
4 times current capacity, lighter, & charge in 5 minutes, Gawd, that would be so great!!!
Imagine my 13ah at 52ah. range would cease to be an issue.

I'll keep riding and upgrade when possible but range isn't an issue for me anymore. I can ride further than I want daily as it is. The future is already here... enjoy it while you can. I'd rather see lockers that fit an entire bike w/charging points inside. Maybe a few less handicapped slots and more ways for riders to protect their property. Also if you look many, if not most, businesses have places to plug-in if you look around. With the right batteries, you really don't need to charge but once a day.

 

[Hectors Ghost]

...Since I can't vary where I'm going quite as much as I like, I've taken to rotating my bikes: e-bike one day, mountain bike the next, road bike the day after that. Anything
longer than 20 or if I'm picking things up, I tend to take the e-bike.

I just wanted to stick with a single bike... the best all-around ebike possible. I have never seen another that covers as many bases.

 

[john peck]

I hear that! Touring any great distance requires something as reliable as you can make it.
I have a remarkable old road bike, but I couldn't trust it to take me a thousand miles.
Tange pro tubing, frameset weighs just 3 1/2 pds.& it's steel, a rolling samurai sword. No way skinny 27"
wheels could haul me & a reasonable amt. of gear that far on 1 3/8" tires. I have a nice alu 26 Raleigh
comfort modified for offroad, A very good 'all around' bike for someone 40 & under,
But for a 70+ ol' rounder with nigh as many fractures & wounds as Knievel, I'd prefer a motor.
What I have is a 'good' cheap bike, better than a lot twice the price.
Experience has shown me it's weaknesses, Therefore, I have to go doubly prepared. About the only
tool I don't carry is a crank puller. I've plenty of spare spokes, tubes, a folding tire, & spare derailleur.
& cables. I even have a spare cut-off brake lever for no really good reason at all. One very important
touring strategy Is knowing how to repair & tune your ride cuz there ain't no bike shops in Death Valley.

 

[Hectors Ghost]

I hear that! Touring any great distance requires something as reliable as you can make it.
I have a remarkable old road bike, but I couldn't trust it to take me a thousand miles.
Tange pro tubing, frameset weighs just 3 1/2 pds.& it's steel, a rolling samurai sword. No way skinny 27"
wheels could haul me & a reasonable amt. of gear that far on 1 3/8" tires. I have a nice alu 26 Raleigh
comfort modified for offroad, A very good 'all around' bike for someone 40 & under,
But for a 70+ ol' rounder with nigh as many fractures & wounds as Knievel, I'd prefer a motor.
What I have is a 'good' cheap bike, better than a lot twice the price.
Experience has shown me it's weaknesses, Therefore, I have to go doubly prepared. About the only
tool I don't carry is a crank puller. I've plenty of spare spokes, tubes, a folding tire, & spare derailleur.
& cables. I even have a spare cut-off brake lever for no really good reason at all. One very important
touring strategy Is knowing how to repair & tune your ride cuz there ain't no bike shops in Death Valley.

I carry a crank puller now. I have Lekkie cranks that are designed not to need a puller just an Allen wrench but started using standard bolts in them. I also now carry a spare chain tensioner after almost twisting one off this year. Tires, tubes, tools, expendables, CO2 cartridges, pump(s), spare parts. I wouldn't want to move the mass I do without hydraulic brakes. I have never had a problem with them in 3 years. Changing pads is easy enough, I can do it on the side of the road in about 15 mins on the front and maybe 20 on the back. I don't even have to remove the wheels. Chain maintenance becomes more important when you are racking up miles, and a motor just makes it more important. Keeping it clean while touring means carrying liquids and brushes. My last chain went 750 miles, the brake pads are lasting longer than that. I ride on 2.5" Schwalbe marathon tires, and when on hard surfaces keep them at 70 lbs., 55 to 60 on softer surfaces. Rolling resistance is important for me to get the ranges I am. There is a lot to be said for an ebike with 3 or 4" rubber but not great for range.

 

[Chancelucky2]

I do carry some tools, but my ultimate "get out of a bad situation" tool is my cell phone. I'm not planning to go off road or ride into really remote areas though.