Throttle that works

Gionnirocket said:
From what I'm understanding the X1 is the terd here and is not set to work with off the shelf Bafang compatible throttles. Then not having access to the Throttle Settings just adds to the frustration.
What is the WW response?
Click to expand...
Nobody knows that's put forth that X1 won't work with a real 'off the shelf' throttle.
Only the thumb thingies have problems - same as with any bike with 750watts or more.
Seems likely decent made throttles will work. Innotrace has a site. You can ask them. WW buys the X1 from them.
I had the same issues on my 1000watt bike. Tried several thumbies. FAIL. Twist throttle cured it. Tried several twist throttles. No problem
That and improved wires also noticeably upped my machines performance see this site using a Domino showing I'm not alone either.
From trusted WW owners I chat with, X1 has tons of throttle power.
Few WW owners are big on throttle anyway. Throttle is best for a rear hub - for reasons as stated.
 
KevinT said:
This looks like an interesting throttle option. Would this be compatible with the Innotrace (Archon X1) controller?
lunacycle.com

Luna Right Twist Throttle For BBSHD and BBS02

Distributors and builders of life changing electric bikes.
lunacycle.com lunacycle.com
Click to expand...
I believe that was one of the throttles shown shown in the ES article.
That the G510 w/ X1 works with a thumb throttle indicates any throttle that works with BBSHD or BBS02 will work.
I'd buy a cheaper twist throttle first (<$20.00) and verify. Reliable information is scant on the net, but I don't hear of problems ... and we would. Loudly.
Another member (Hydra owner), competent with programming the Archon controller, informs me a user accessible 'end voltage cutoff' setting is not there.
So (it works with the thumbie) it's already set. Probably at 40v, the usual default - but it could be 45v, which is correct for a Domino (per factory recommendation). The X1's 'start voltage' setting is available and should be set to 15V.
So maybe (worst care scenario) 30ish% of power available (58v - at full charge) is not accessible to throttle.
This could be a good thing as throttle power can ramp up so fast, having instant power come on w/ over 100nm is very dangerous.
I'm learning as I go, trial and error, so I make plenty of errors and I made a big one, that I'm in the process of rectifying.
I didn't have e cut-off brakes - or more correctly: I didn't have a front cut-off brake.
With my twist grip throttle on the right side, when I engage the rear brake I let go of the throttle and it returns to neutral.
Very little chance of being on throttle and brake simultaneously and if you are of little consequence as the brake stops the drive wheel.
The right (front) brake is the killer. It's easy to slip up and be on the (left hand) throttle and simultaneously engage the (right hand) front brake.
If that happens and you're on the front brake in a turn, the rear power can (suddenly and with great force) push your front wheel right into a 'tuck' attitude. Worse, an instinct to brake harder (what we do when we start to lose control) exacerbates the effect.
Also, there is throttle overrun, and that can cause this tucking condition.
Understand, when this happens to a competent cyclist they may inadvertently blame a 'sticking throttle'.
It's serious enough, I've stopped using my machine until the Magura MT5e's (not 'e-stop') I ordered for the front are installed.
Now I guess I'll have to interface the brakes with a Domino throttle.
Be interesting to know your results.
 
Almost all American bikes have the right brake as the rear.

I would be shocked if ww or any company in America was switching that around.
 
I have the archon and have the changed the thumb throttle 3-4 times trying various for better smoothness and had no problem, any bafang mid drive throttle will work has been my experience

but did not find a smoother throttle
 
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FWIW-
I'm using 11 (1.1v) for starting, and 42 (4.2v) for ending. I BELIEVE those are the max. available allowances for the stock UART controller, but I don't have the docs to prove that handy.

The thought is, the stock 15 and 35 settings are leaving potential throttle resolution on the table(1.1 vs 1.5, and 3.5 vs. 4.2). On paper anyway, that earlier start and later ending SHOULD result in significantly better throttle resolution.

There's also the "start current" setting. It controls how aggressive the motor's start up will be (regardless of what throttle you're using and start/ending settings). Stock setting was 10 on my bike, and I dropped that to 8 for a little softer start. Suggestion was that setting could be dropped all the way down to 1 for an internal geared hub setup - for a really soft start.

Frey "Smooth" uses start 15 and end 35, with 5 for start current. -Al
 
I sent a motor in for excessive noise and power loss . When I received it back it had been reprogrammed. It 1st I thought I had an additional issue because I did not know about the reprogramming. It is so soft on take off in level 1 or 2 is can use the throttle for take off! The throttle power now follows the power level, if you are level 1 the throttle will not help you out if come to the hill and haven’t shifted. It will if you are level 5 full 1000 watts . After getting used to this I find it more useable. I have to adjust to it and get used to more button pushes to sometime get what I want for different circumstances.

It seems a little more linear too. More so if you want to cruise at certain speeds on throttle pick a your power level. It seems more bike like and less motorcycle like but still has the power in it
 
Ahicks is on the right track, it is not the actual throttle and as vincent suggests any throttle will work as long as it feels comfortable to the user and fits their bar space well. They just send a signal to the controller and that is where if you are having throttle issues your problem lies. When I first got my UART M620 bike the throttle was super touchy and unusable but after getting into the programming I was easily able to tailor it to my liking which is a soft start and full power access on all modes and haven't even thought about it since.
 
Zachdds said:
Almost all American bikes have the right brake as the rear.

I would be shocked if ww or any company in America was switching that around.
Click to expand...
Bicycle yes, motorcycle is front brake on the right.
I think the main reason is that on a motorcycle the throttle is on the right, and so the main brake (most often used) which is the right brake is also there, so they exclude each other.

I have a twist throttle on the right on my ebike, and so my Front brake is also on the right.

This is not really a huge deal, as it is very easy to switch brakes around (disconnect reconnect the lines.
 
JRA said:
Ahicks is on the right track, it is not the actual throttle and as vincent suggests any throttle will work as long as it feels comfortable to the user and fits their bar space well. They just send a signal to the controller and that is where if you are having throttle issues your problem lies. When I first got my UART M620 bike the throttle was super touchy and unusable but after getting into the programming I was easily able to tailor it to my liking which is a soft start and full power access on all modes and haven't even thought about it since.
Click to expand...
Same story here. This issue is the one that forced my hand getting in to the tuning. Glad though, as it turns the throttle into a total non event (among other things).
 
My bad. Clearly I read it wrong. Post deleted.
 
AHicks said:
FWIW-
I'm using 11 (1.1v) for starting, and 42 (4.2v) for ending. I BELIEVE those are the max. available allowances for the stock UART controller, but I don't have the docs to prove that handy.

The thought is, the stock 15 and 35 settings are leaving potential throttle resolution on the table(1.1 vs 1.5, and 3.5 vs. 4.2). On paper anyway, that earlier start and later ending SHOULD result in significantly better throttle resolution.

There's also the "start current" setting. It controls how aggressive the motor's start up will be (regardless of what throttle you're using and start/ending settings). Stock setting was 10 on my bike, and I dropped that to 8 for a little softer start. Suggestion was that setting could be dropped all the way down to 1 for an internal geared hub setup - for a really soft start.

Frey "Smooth" uses start 15 and end 35, with 5 for start current. -Al
Click to expand...
You're entitled to believe anything, but the setting recommendation for a Domino 0 - 5ohm, ip67 twist throttle is as I've stated.
No reason they aren't fine for any 'quality' twist throttle either.
See: https://fasterbikes.eu/en/accessories/throttles/203/domino-premium-full-twist-grip-throttle
The answer was also addressed to the Innotrace X1 Controller - not frey's controllers.
You are out of context. Your Frey comes with a cheap thumb throttle. I'm not addressing thumbies. They're so bad they don't count.
When you say "Frey "Smooth" uses start 15 and end 35, with 5 for start current" you completely lost me.
What "Current" setting?

Relevant settings are:
  • Throttle Mode: Speed
  • Start Voltage: 15 (=1,5V)
  • End Voltage: 45 (=4,5V)
My bike and none I've seen (I'm pretty nosey at my friends shop) have any "current" setting for the throttle.
Settings are all voltage and some have access to the 'throttle mode setting', some don't. No 'current' setting, and why would you have one?
It's not like the current is flowing through the throttle. It's a Signal Wire and 5v.
I'm sticking with buying a Domino (for a 100nm bike) from fasterbikes (above) and adhering to their recommendations for set-up.
No idea about a Frey. It wasn't just that I found the company cagey and deceptive, when I finally cornered them into revealing the weight, I canceled buying one and went with WattWagons Titanium, using Ultra and an Innotrace X1.
I'm sure it's a fine machine if you don't mind weighing in at 80lbs and being unable to carry any cargo, but a 60lb hardtail suits my needs better and a WW Hydra is a far better Ultra powered FS bike, weighing 58lbs - if I got frisky.
It could well be the "max. available allowances for [your Frey's] stock UART controller" is a lesser value than a Domino throttle is correctly set up with.
If I didn't know, I'd check and see - Paul

PS. With the Domino these settings have nothing to do with start up being 'hard or soft'.
For faster start (as the link information says) one adds an appropriate resistor, and if you want full throttle range, you add a second resistor between 5v and Signal.
By increasing the throttles low threshold value (creating longer lag at the input sensor) you increase the amount you have to engage (turn) it before anything happens and the throttle comes on just as 'hard' at that point as usual.
This is a preferred throttle condition?
I thought it was a major complaint?
 
scrambler said:
Bicycle yes, motorcycle is front brake on the right.
I think the main reason is that on a motorcycle the throttle is on the right, and so the main brake (most often used) which is the right brake is also there, so they exclude each other.

I have a twist throttle on the right on my ebike, and so my Front brake is also on the right.

This is not really a huge deal, as it is very easy to switch brakes around (disconnect reconnect the lines.
Click to expand...
I thought motorcycles put the hand brake on the right so the clutch and throttle would be on opposite hands. My bad if we were talking about motorcycles.
 
That is what I said. Motorcycle (front" hand brake is on the right with the throttle.
Left handle is clutch, left pedal is gear change
Rear brake is right foot pedal

But you are right having the clutch and throttle on opposite side is likely the main reason :)
 
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scrambler said:
Bicycle yes, motorcycle is front brake on the right.
I think the main reason is that on a motorcycle the throttle is on the right, and so the main brake (most often used) which is the right brake is also there, so they exclude each other.

I have a twist throttle on the right on my ebike, and so my Front brake is also on the right.

This is not really a huge deal, as it is very easy to switch brakes around (disconnect reconnect the lines.
Click to expand...
Yikes !!! I've had this ominous feeling I was forgetting something very important.
How dumb I feel for not thinking of that. Now I'm certain I need this set up 'idiot proof'.
Guess I will rationalize blowing those Ducats for MT5-e, telling myself "you were going to add them eventually anyway" (yeah, right. at their high-point in price. sure you were) - and turn a passing consideration into 'my plan all along'. lol
Front/ Right is the real solution and if I'm reading this correctly, the Magura's are a 'flip flop' design. I'll know on delivery - scheduled for tomorrow.
At least the bike'll be safe and usable until I sort the Domino throttle issue out.
-
I inquired about using the iP67 0 - 5ohm throttle for both the WW Ultra's X1 and other controllers (syntax-wise, keep in mind these are Austrians) and just heard back from FasterBikes.
Relevant answer: "unfortunately we have no experience with the Ultra, and no experience with the Innotrace x1 controller, whether this works I can not tell you, but should work in principle the same as the BBS01/02/HD,!
The Domino throttles are delivered with open cable ends and resistors must be installed so that it works with these engines, so it will also be with the [Ultra], but maybe you need other or more resistors I don't know!"
... we do not deliver to the USA for legal reasons, etc".
END
So no definitive answer for my WW UC build's master plan - not that one's needed.
I reason: Since the 'v' values for other motors are known, required resistors for the X1's can be extrapolated as a good starting point.
A 72v (81v) controller would be different, but this is 48v (58v) like the other known values.
Worth a shot ...
 
@Fast n' Furious the throttles receive a 5V signal from the controller and then send that variable voltage (1.1-4.2V in AHick's case) back depending on throttle position. Whether the controller is 36V or 52V or 72V doesn't really matter, as long as it's sending the standard 5V signal to the throttle and expects the output range the throttle will give, it will work fine.

In order to augment the throttle's output voltage range to match what the controller expects, you need to know the output range of the throttle & what range the controller expect - which could vary widely between controllers regardless of voltage. Changing the output voltage range and the response curve is what KW acheived when swapping the SS49E hall sensor in his throttle, same as adding that resistor to the Domino - though that doesn't do anything to change the response curve of the already linear pot in that throttle (though variable resistors exist) both of these are just hardware solutions.

I just found out a friend from school got a job in my area and is moving here some time early next year - I'm going to goad them into trading the motorcycle in for an electric dirtbike and if they do it I'll grab a Sur Ron or something similar. I'll probably pick up a Domino for that but I would like to go aftermarket controller with a bigger battery - so I wonder if the ASI controllers easily allow for changing that voltage range like VESC-based controllers...
 
loamoaf said:
@Fast n' Furious the throttles receive a 5V signal from the controller and then send that variable voltage (1.1-4.2V in AHick's case) back depending on throttle position. Whether the controller is 36V or 52V or 72V doesn't really matter, as long as it's sending the standard 5V signal to the throttle and expects the output range the throttle will give, it will work fine.

In order to augment the throttle's output voltage range to match what the controller expects, you need to know the output range of the throttle & what range the controller expect - which could vary widely between controllers regardless of voltage. Changing the output voltage range and the response curve is what KW acheived when swapping the SS49E hall sensor in his throttle, same as adding that resistor to the Domino - though that doesn't do anything to change the response curve of the already linear pot in that throttle (though variable resistors exist) both of these are just hardware solutions.

I just found out a friend from school got a job in my area and is moving here some time early next year - I'm going to goad them into trading the motorcycle in for an electric dirtbike and if they do it I'll grab a Sur Ron or something similar. I'll probably pick up a Domino for that but I would like to go aftermarket controller with a bigger battery - so I wonder if the ASI controllers easily allow for changing that voltage range like VESC-based controllers...
Click to expand...
FWIW, I don't know anything about the bigger stuff you are talking about, but the model ID tag on the KT controllers specify what they are looking for from the throttles pretty clearly.

If you open this link, you'll see you can enlarge that tag to the point it's easily read - specifying "speed set 1-4.2v"

Amazon.com: KUNTENG Controller, 48V 1000W 30A Controller, Electric high-Power brushless Square Wave Controller : Patio, Lawn & Garden

Buy KUNTENG Controller, 48V 1000W 30A Controller, Electric high-Power brushless Square Wave Controller: Energy Controllers - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases
www.amazon.com
 
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