Deacon Blues
Well-Known Member
No.....dry weather.
Throttle problem
- Thread starter Deacon Blues
- Start date
Deacon Blues
Well-Known Member
I'll give it a try.
PedalUma
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Petaluma, CA
Sometimes I have had to double the magnets and move then away slightly from the pickup. Usually it is just right in line. Look for the arrow, not just the widest part. Of course the arrow is black, on a black object! It is like graffiti in black on a black surface.
Fast n' Furious
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- San Diego
I asked WW if they'd install a Domino twist throttle. Tentative Yes.
When it was time to build, there it was on the build sheet. Saying twist throttles are not the norm for them,
They suggested/ I agreed on the Archer. They sent me a nice mock up shot.
I'll let you know how the throttle works on my 2300watt X1 WattWagon with X1 in the next few days.
The build sheet said "Throttle: Domino Twist Grip 0-5K Ohm Throttle, Standard Firmware Profile".
Drivetrain: Archer D1x Trail 11-Speed Electronic, 46T Front Chainring, 11-40 Rear
Cassette
Here's the mock up from WW
In you're from California, you should note that CA VC 312.5 does not appear to allow throttles, thumb or otherwise for Class 3
I developed a button, inset into the H bar's end, under the Domino grips. The drawback many will hate is a hole drilled in the bars where the wires come out. Both ends terminate in 2.8mm Spade Connectors. Out Extremely difficult to accidentally turn on or to detect.
With a click, I can be a Class 2 (throttle up to 20mph) or Class 3 (no throttle stated. 28mph TS). Since I upgraded the bike to Class 3, and the Statute specifies I have a right to modify (as long as I put a sticker on listing the class), I can still revert the machine to Class 2.
Nothing in the statute says a bike may not have the potential to exist in multiple Classes.
That could be an autosensing setting, because I've tried thumb types that were jerky/ would not hold a cruise speed/ 3/4 of range was missing.
It could be another reason, but the sensation was 'all or nothing'/ power off or on, the symptoms of a throttle on a Current setting.
With a current setting, as soon as less watts are required to drive the force than you are requesting by 'pressing' to any given point, the switch goes to off. You press harder, it come back on. Now you need less watts, again it goes off. You have to constantly manually reset it.
A Speed setting does not go off and on. The power stays on at the level you are pressing regardless of usage and you can smoothly modulate it within a varying range.
-
Current allocated for throttle output is on a circuit that doesn't change when the assist % level does.
If you set the PAS to 20% of 1000watts, the throttle will still pull 60 - 70% of the 1000watts (600 - 700%watts), not 60 - 70% of the 20% allocated to PAS (12 and 14% respectively).
There's a simple way to test these conclusions: With Controller set @ 0 - 3 levels (or 0 - Whatever levels), set the bike to 'Assist Level 0' (no assist). Now try the throttle.
My Result: No PAS whatsoever and the throttle's power still works the same with throttle only.
-
+5000miles of using a throttle, I'm certain my firmware does not allocate the same % of power to throttle as the PAS.
You can set the PAS for 100%, but you cannot set the throttle %. It's fixed.
Anecdotally, I can be cranking hard and hit the throttle, nothing happens. The TS is using all the current and it takes priority in the programming.
I can be WOT and start cranking hard, the wattage use immediately jumps to a higher level.
Throttle alone will pull 800watts, but PAS on level 3 will pull over 1000watts (as high as my display will measure).
The firmware limits the throttle to 60 - 70% of available current, not from the PAS current, rather what the PAS is not using - up to 60 - 70% of overall available current.
The firmware's throttle settings also coincide with 70% of 28mph = 19.6mph , where it should be for a 20mph limited, throttle only Class 2 bike in CA. That's @ 48V. At full charge you might hit 21 - 22mph, but ratings are for 'nominal', not 'peak' or 'max'.
Considering the "mandatory 20mph @ WOT", any puritanical throttle aversion is ludicrous.
How one skillfully use it might, but a throttle does not make a bike 'faster'. The PAS has prenuptial rights on the current and the throttle tails off completely at 60 -70% power (-/+10% depending on voltage).
A throttle is actually slower than pedaling. Going by the rules, I cannot catch a 28mph Class 3 Bike.
Conclusion (Sarcasm): Since PAS is 30 - 40% more powerful, we must limit leg size.
If your bike's legal in it's class (rule one being you are 750watts nominal at say 48V), your throttle is quite tame.
-
I'll go out on a limb and say the KT is the most popular controller made. The exclusivity of Display compatibility assures that last I checked.
If you have a KT controller, I'd be grateful if you'd test as I did on level 0 assist and let us know the results.
-
The MXUS has my been my loyal testbed for the next chapter - a factory installed Domino on a 2300watt X1 controlled WattWagon Cross Tour.
I've included the mock-up shot WW sent. The bike's shipped.
When it was time to build, there it was on the build sheet. Saying twist throttles are not the norm for them,
They suggested/ I agreed on the Archer. They sent me a nice mock up shot.
I'll let you know how the throttle works on my 2300watt X1 WattWagon with X1 in the next few days.
The build sheet said "Throttle: Domino Twist Grip 0-5K Ohm Throttle, Standard Firmware Profile".
Drivetrain: Archer D1x Trail 11-Speed Electronic, 46T Front Chainring, 11-40 Rear
Cassette
Here's the mock up from WW
In you're from California, you should note that CA VC 312.5 does not appear to allow throttles, thumb or otherwise for Class 3
I developed a button, inset into the H bar's end, under the Domino grips. The drawback many will hate is a hole drilled in the bars where the wires come out. Both ends terminate in 2.8mm Spade Connectors. Out Extremely difficult to accidentally turn on or to detect.
With a click, I can be a Class 2 (throttle up to 20mph) or Class 3 (no throttle stated. 28mph TS). Since I upgraded the bike to Class 3, and the Statute specifies I have a right to modify (as long as I put a sticker on listing the class), I can still revert the machine to Class 2.
Nothing in the statute says a bike may not have the potential to exist in multiple Classes.
My test bike has a Lishui 20 x 22amp controller, MXUS XF19 and a Domino throttle. It's definitely set to Speed, not Current.
That could be an autosensing setting, because I've tried thumb types that were jerky/ would not hold a cruise speed/ 3/4 of range was missing.
It could be another reason, but the sensation was 'all or nothing'/ power off or on, the symptoms of a throttle on a Current setting.
With a current setting, as soon as less watts are required to drive the force than you are requesting by 'pressing' to any given point, the switch goes to off. You press harder, it come back on. Now you need less watts, again it goes off. You have to constantly manually reset it.
A Speed setting does not go off and on. The power stays on at the level you are pressing regardless of usage and you can smoothly modulate it within a varying range.
-
Current allocated for throttle output is on a circuit that doesn't change when the assist % level does.
If you set the PAS to 20% of 1000watts, the throttle will still pull 60 - 70% of the 1000watts (600 - 700%watts), not 60 - 70% of the 20% allocated to PAS (12 and 14% respectively).
There's a simple way to test these conclusions: With Controller set @ 0 - 3 levels (or 0 - Whatever levels), set the bike to 'Assist Level 0' (no assist). Now try the throttle.
My Result: No PAS whatsoever and the throttle's power still works the same with throttle only.
-
+5000miles of using a throttle, I'm certain my firmware does not allocate the same % of power to throttle as the PAS.
You can set the PAS for 100%, but you cannot set the throttle %. It's fixed.
Anecdotally, I can be cranking hard and hit the throttle, nothing happens. The TS is using all the current and it takes priority in the programming.
I can be WOT and start cranking hard, the wattage use immediately jumps to a higher level.
Throttle alone will pull 800watts, but PAS on level 3 will pull over 1000watts (as high as my display will measure).
The firmware limits the throttle to 60 - 70% of available current, not from the PAS current, rather what the PAS is not using - up to 60 - 70% of overall available current.
The firmware's throttle settings also coincide with 70% of 28mph = 19.6mph , where it should be for a 20mph limited, throttle only Class 2 bike in CA. That's @ 48V. At full charge you might hit 21 - 22mph, but ratings are for 'nominal', not 'peak' or 'max'.
Considering the "mandatory 20mph @ WOT", any puritanical throttle aversion is ludicrous.
How one skillfully use it might, but a throttle does not make a bike 'faster'. The PAS has prenuptial rights on the current and the throttle tails off completely at 60 -70% power (-/+10% depending on voltage).
A throttle is actually slower than pedaling. Going by the rules, I cannot catch a 28mph Class 3 Bike.
Conclusion (Sarcasm): Since PAS is 30 - 40% more powerful, we must limit leg size.
If your bike's legal in it's class (rule one being you are 750watts nominal at say 48V), your throttle is quite tame.
-
I'll go out on a limb and say the KT is the most popular controller made. The exclusivity of Display compatibility assures that last I checked.
If you have a KT controller, I'd be grateful if you'd test as I did on level 0 assist and let us know the results.
-
The MXUS has my been my loyal testbed for the next chapter - a factory installed Domino on a 2300watt X1 controlled WattWagon Cross Tour.
I've included the mock-up shot WW sent. The bike's shipped.
Deacon Blues
Well-Known Member
F&F, did Pushkar get in the new titanium frames? It's great to see you're finally getting your bike. 
Pushkar is usually pretty good at responding to my text messages, but he hasn't responded to my last three text messages (over the last 7 or so days). I guess I'll have to phone him to see if I can get him to respond.
The weird thing about the throttles on my two WW bikes is the throttle on my UC Pro is as you described (jerky and either on or off), but the throttle on my Hydra works really well. I can easily keep a constant speed.
I'll be interested in your review on the Domino throttle.
Pushkar is usually pretty good at responding to my text messages, but he hasn't responded to my last three text messages (over the last 7 or so days). I guess I'll have to phone him to see if I can get him to respond.
The weird thing about the throttles on my two WW bikes is the throttle on my UC Pro is as you described (jerky and either on or off), but the throttle on my Hydra works really well. I can easily keep a constant speed.
I'll be interested in your review on the Domino throttle.
Fast n' Furious
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- San Diego
October makes a year since I ordered. I'm stoked.
I put in one of my rare inquiries to Amit and was advised if I'd be be "ok with a cassette, they had a Small CrossTour frame in stock - that "won't work with an internal hub due to clearance, but is perfect for a cassette". It could be a sample?
Unlike the UC on the website, the frame has prominent gusseting on the downtube and thickened rings on both ends of the headtube. Also it has the same attaching points on the toptube that you do and the UC's lack
WW sent a photo. Bike's sick. Delivery was yesterday, UPS failed.
I'll start it's own thread.
I put in one of my rare inquiries to Amit and was advised if I'd be be "ok with a cassette, they had a Small CrossTour frame in stock - that "won't work with an internal hub due to clearance, but is perfect for a cassette". It could be a sample?
Unlike the UC on the website, the frame has prominent gusseting on the downtube and thickened rings on both ends of the headtube. Also it has the same attaching points on the toptube that you do and the UC's lack
WW sent a photo. Bike's sick. Delivery was yesterday, UPS failed.
I'll start it's own thread.
loamoaf
Active Member
- Region
- USA
@Deacon Blues I'm wondering if the difference you are experiencing is one controller the throttle mode is set to current/power and the other is set to speed mode?
If you have both bikes have you tried swapping the throttle on each of them to eliminate that being the culprit? Water shouldn't matter to a hall sensor unless it's causing a short between the legs - but that would be causing way worse issues. I think my X1 shipped with the throttle set to speed mode (I cannot tell for certain as I don't have my programming cable yet) but I did get a Das-Kit throttle clone (easier to open up) that came with a 49E linear hall sensor (1-4V signal out) and it seems like the X1 isn't responding until 1.1V like the stock Bafang setting, and seems to max out before I hit the end of the throttle throw which leads me to believe max signal is 3.6V like the stock Bafang setting.
When you get the bike up on a stand and give it throttle, can you accurately control speed on both? My stock M620 is set to current mode so with no resistance it will spin fast even with light throttle, however the X1 will spin slower than walk mode if I want it without even the cranks or chain attached - very very precise speed control and it seems like it's measuring speed at the output shaft vs at the wheel. Response when I change how much I'm pressing the throttle was instant even though the rear wheel wasn't spinning.
Maybe my X1 did ship with the throttle set to current/power mode and it's just much more precise at the low end and affected more by PAS level. I need to take the X1 out for a ride and put it through its paces before I could give an accurate judgment on how the throttle rides with me on it
This is the throttle I got - but it needed a cable swap to plug into the Bafang harness. The Das-Kit version with the correct plug is 'T6' but it's hard to find in stock anywhere. The C7 version is in stock but I'm unsure of the difference - whether it's the plug end or what... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B3LRC817
I will say though that I never experienced any weird jerkiness with the stock M620 and JRA's tune for it. In PAS 3 or higher I could absolutely notice when it assisted and how sensitive it was to the pressure I put on the pedals, but throttle-wise there was no strangeness hitting top speed or max output for that PAS level
I think things have improved for WW as they also responded to me within 48hrs of the first email so I'm glad to see them shipping out more bikes. Eager to get my programming cable!
If you have both bikes have you tried swapping the throttle on each of them to eliminate that being the culprit? Water shouldn't matter to a hall sensor unless it's causing a short between the legs - but that would be causing way worse issues. I think my X1 shipped with the throttle set to speed mode (I cannot tell for certain as I don't have my programming cable yet) but I did get a Das-Kit throttle clone (easier to open up) that came with a 49E linear hall sensor (1-4V signal out) and it seems like the X1 isn't responding until 1.1V like the stock Bafang setting, and seems to max out before I hit the end of the throttle throw which leads me to believe max signal is 3.6V like the stock Bafang setting.
When you get the bike up on a stand and give it throttle, can you accurately control speed on both? My stock M620 is set to current mode so with no resistance it will spin fast even with light throttle, however the X1 will spin slower than walk mode if I want it without even the cranks or chain attached - very very precise speed control and it seems like it's measuring speed at the output shaft vs at the wheel. Response when I change how much I'm pressing the throttle was instant even though the rear wheel wasn't spinning.
Maybe my X1 did ship with the throttle set to current/power mode and it's just much more precise at the low end and affected more by PAS level. I need to take the X1 out for a ride and put it through its paces before I could give an accurate judgment on how the throttle rides with me on it
This is the throttle I got - but it needed a cable swap to plug into the Bafang harness. The Das-Kit version with the correct plug is 'T6' but it's hard to find in stock anywhere. The C7 version is in stock but I'm unsure of the difference - whether it's the plug end or what... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B3LRC817
I will say though that I never experienced any weird jerkiness with the stock M620 and JRA's tune for it. In PAS 3 or higher I could absolutely notice when it assisted and how sensitive it was to the pressure I put on the pedals, but throttle-wise there was no strangeness hitting top speed or max output for that PAS level
I think things have improved for WW as they also responded to me within 48hrs of the first email so I'm glad to see them shipping out more bikes. Eager to get my programming cable!
Fast n' Furious
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- San Diego
Just to dispel a few misconceptions. Throttles don't set controller settings. They're dumb devices.
On a stand a throttle just runs without resistance. No way to tell anything - unless your wiring is wrong and it's slovenly slow.
On alibaba and T6 PLUG are sold on https://www.ebay.com/itm/294900551825 ... but really? SIX wires for a throttle?
Standard is three. Cut-offs add two - if you have them. Does your throttle have cut-offs? That's a first for a thumb-throttle.
Use a three prong Higo.
X1 "Standard throttle profile" is the "Standard Throttle Profile" for X1's. All the same - certainly 'speed', not 'current'.
Throttle current is allocated is 60 - 70% of total available, with pedal assist having precedence and access to 100% - 750watts, or 2300watts.
You can change pedal sensitivity, not throttle's 'power', but more sensitivity or less, effecting available current will obviously effect available throttle 'power'.
On a stand a throttle just runs without resistance. No way to tell anything - unless your wiring is wrong and it's slovenly slow.
On alibaba and T6 PLUG are sold on https://www.ebay.com/itm/294900551825 ... but really? SIX wires for a throttle?
Standard is three. Cut-offs add two - if you have them. Does your throttle have cut-offs? That's a first for a thumb-throttle.
Use a three prong Higo.
X1 "Standard throttle profile" is the "Standard Throttle Profile" for X1's. All the same - certainly 'speed', not 'current'.
Throttle current is allocated is 60 - 70% of total available, with pedal assist having precedence and access to 100% - 750watts, or 2300watts.
You can change pedal sensitivity, not throttle's 'power', but more sensitivity or less, effecting available current will obviously effect available throttle 'power'.
loamoaf
Active Member
- Region
- USA
@Fast n' Furious the T6 just refers to the Das-Kit throttle model, the other option with the wrong plug is C7 - they both use 3-pin Higo's it's just that as far as I understand the T6 version uses a female Higo while the C7 uses a male; the Bafang harness requires a female plug on the throttle. The hall sensors only have 3 legs; 5V+, ground, and signal - current is unimportant and negligible (<35mA for 49E). Whether the controller is set to have its throttle mode as speed or current/power doesn't depend on the throttle at all, but it will change how the controller output reacts to throttle position. My suggestion wasn't that the throttles are somehow changing that setting in the controller but simply that checking both throttles on both motors will rule out a faulty throttle being the issue, and would imply controller settings are different.
Fast n' Furious
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- San Diego
Ohhh. Sorry. Threw me off.
I'd suspected some controller might have an autosensing function - that would explain it.
Exactly. The reaction to throttle position - like an on/ off switch. I see that, yes. It does imply the controller setting are different.
There are Higo (Julet) male to male and female to female adapters on ali that will suit your needs, or just the 1meter corded type to solder on.
I'd suspected some controller might have an autosensing function - that would explain it.
Exactly. The reaction to throttle position - like an on/ off switch. I see that, yes. It does imply the controller setting are different.
There are Higo (Julet) male to male and female to female adapters on ali that will suit your needs, or just the 1meter corded type to solder on.
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