Thinking of maybe getting a Gazelle C380, but I'd like to consider alternatives

[Stefan Mikes]

What happens exactly when you try to climb but the motor is too weak?

In such a situation -- in spite of you being in the lowest gear -- the bike slows down so much you cannot control it. The bike becomes wobbly, and the only thing to do is to stop. Restarting the ride up a serious climb from the cold start might turn to be impossible. (Similar happens when the motor is adequate but you cannot downshift more to maintain pedalling).

Can you help me understand those numbers? 11-42t and such. Sounds like the key to understanding gears, but I'm confused considering the first number doesn't change but the 11-46t one still helps with hills?

Answering for Trevor:
The gearing (gear ratio) is the number of teeth on the chainring divided by the number of teeth on the largest rear sprocket (a.k.a. "granny gear"). For serious climbing, the gear ratio in the granny would be the best less than 1. The front chainwheel in the Gazelle is 55T. According to the info from Trevor, the equivalent largest rear cog in the Enviolo is 42T. Divide 55/42 = 1.3. It is not only far from "mountain gearing" but also the 65 Nm motor is not what you need for your dramatic hills (too weak). Generally, IGH e-bikes are not made for steep hills, these are an urban thing.

Some suggestions
I would like to draw your attention to two Specialized e-bikes. The special thing about them is the top version in each line (unfortunately, the most expensive one) comes with the Specialized 2.2 motor (90 Nm, 565 W peak motor mechanical power), which is adequate for your hills. The top of the line also comes with a big 710 Wh battery, so you do not need to be worried by the range. Let me start with the most expensive e-bike, which seems to perfectly fit your bill.

Turbo Tero X 6.0
The price of that SUV e-bike is very high (CAD 9,500) but it is a marvel. It is a Full Suspension fully equipped e-bike with a rack rated at 20 kg, having mountain-grade brakes, and the gear ratio of 0.76. The gearing for the granny gear here is 21.05 gear-inch (the true mountain MTB gearing). This e-bike is intended for both urban and off-road use, and I think that thing would climb your King Of Mountain easily, even with the cargo. You will need the frame size S, and you could probably order it via a good Specialized LBS of the area (I recommend looking for a Specialized owned store as they have a better access to the stock than mom & pop stores).

Turbo Vado 5.0 Step-Through
For the price of CAD6,500, you are getting an e-bike with the same powerful motor and big battery as Tero X 6.0 but with even sturdier rear rack rated for 27 kg, and with equally excellent componentry. There is a small issue with the gearing of that e-bike: It comes with a stock 48T chainring and the 42T granny sprocket. The gearing ratio is 1.14 or 31 gear-inch, which is not good for the mountains. However, Vado allows you replacing the chainring with a smaller one. For instance, using a 32T MTB chainring would have brought you at the gear ratio of 0.76 or 21 gear-inches (the same as for Tero X 6.0). Replacing a chainring is a simple operation and can be done by the shop (with appropriate shortening of the chain). A compatible 32T chainring is used on Specialized Turbo Levo (the flagship Specialized e-MTB), so I can see no issues here. Again, I am sure you need the size S, and I wrote about the Specialized LBS selection earlier.

I had a technical look at the Specialized Turbo Como 5.0 IGH. Unfortunately, that beautiful e-bike comes with the carbon belt/IGH, and even with the strong motor, the steed might not be adequate for you hills!

 

[Roamers]

@Eiri To clarify or confuse; you may be overthinking this. Find a bike to test on hills and see what works.

When I was looking at ebikes, there were not many around to test drive. It was important to me to know roughly what the experience was going to be ignoring assist (I wasn't sold on the change, but my wife was). The comparison I had was to my existing Raleigh Hybrid. The attached gear chart was created so I could compare gearing on the Gazelle C380 or U T10. Yellow highlight is gear, green highlight is speed at 2 different cadence. Based on the chart, I knew the C380 would be similar to riding hybrid in front middle sprocket; which is where I rode probably 90% of the time.

I question why Gazelle picked 55 tooth front sprocket; I don't need 34 mph on a Class 1 bike; wouldn.t mind a bit more on the other end. Much prefer the U T10 gearing, but wanted to get out of the derailleur business.

 

[Eiri]

Some suggestions
I would like to draw your attention to two Specialized e-bikes. The special thing about them is the top version in each line (unfortunately, the most expensive one) comes with the Specialized 2.2 motor (90 Nm, 565 W peak motor mechanical power), which is adequate for your hills. The top of the line also comes with a big 710 Wh battery, so you do not need to be worried by the range. Let me start with the most expensive e-bike, which seems to perfectly fit your bill.

Turbo Tero X 6.0
The price of that SUV e-bike is very high (CAD 9,500) but it is a marvel. It is a Full Suspension fully equipped e-bike with a rack rated at 20 kg, having mountain-grade brakes, and the gear ratio of 0.76. The gearing for the granny gear here is 21.05 gear-inch (the true mountain MTB gearing). This e-bike is intended for both urban and off-road use, and I think that thing would climb your King Of Mountain easily, even with the cargo. You will need the frame size S, and you could probably order it via a good Specialized LBS of the area (I recommend looking for a Specialized owned store as they have a better access to the stock than mom & pop stores).

Turbo Vado 5.0 Step-Through
For the price of CAD6,500, you are getting an e-bike with the same powerful motor and big battery as Tero X 6.0 but with even sturdier rear rack rated for 27 kg, and with equally excellent componentry. There is a small issue with the gearing of that e-bike: It comes with a stock 48T chainring and the 42T granny sprocket. The gearing ratio is 1.14 or 31 gear-inch, which is not good for the mountains. However, Vado allows you replacing the chainring with a smaller one. For instance, using a 32T MTB chainring would have brought you at the gear ratio of 0.76 or 21 gear-inches (the same as for Tero X 6.0). Replacing a chainring is a simple operation and can be done by the shop (with appropriate shortening of the chain). A compatible 32T chainring is used on Specialized Turbo Levo (the flagship Specialized e-MTB), so I can see no issues here. Again, I am sure you need the size S, and I wrote about the Specialized LBS selection earlier

Wow, the closest one in stock for the Vado is in Ontario, and there is no Tero in stock, anywhere. That sucks.

Would I get the right idea of how they ride by riding some other Specialized bike and assuming the better ones just get a stronger motor?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The Tero X is the latest thing (several American EBR members already own it). It would be a good idea to give the largest Specialized store of the area a phone call and learn about the availability of Tero X 6.0 size S in the near future.

You could try demo riding a Tero 3.0 (not X). Not the same thing, similar enough.

You could also try riding a Vado 3.0 ST just to get the notion.

 

[Roamers]

Would I get the right idea of how they ride by riding some other Specialized bike and assuming the better ones just get a stronger motor?

Careful with that assumption. The first ebikes we rode were Specialized Como and Vado. I really don't recall which was which, but absolutely hated the first one, loved the second. Turns out the difference was the first one had a slightly pedal forward geometry that I couldn't pedal smoothly. To be fair, the geometry was changed the following year and I bet it would be fine.

My son rides analog mountain bikes and dislikes Specialized geometry compared to Trek he is riding.

Bottom line, geometry might make a difference.

 

[Eiri]

Hi! So I took an appointment at a dealer that sells Riese & Müller and Gazelle, and negotiated a visit to a Specialized dealer. (Remember, I'm having my mom accompany me, so I'm already really glad I could even visit two places.)

Man, are things even more complicated than I thought.

The store didn't have a Gazelle Ultimate C380 or Riese & Müller Nevo4 in my size they said they would have for me.

But they did have a Medeo T9 (I think), a Gazelle with the Enviolo 380 shifter (not sure which but not the Ultimate), a Riese & Müller Charger and a Riese & Müller Multitinker.

Then at the Specialized dealer I tried a Vado 3.0. The salesman seemed like a really passionate person who says he's tried all the flavours of Vado personally and decided that wouldn't carry the 4.0 or 5.0 versions or the IGH versions at all because he couldn't feel a difference that would be worth the difference in price. Fair enough, I guess, but I wish he'd have let me judge by myself.

For one, the Enviolo 380 shifter is out. I have no words to properly express how disappointed I am in it. I didn't think I'd notice, but it feels heavy and unresponsive.Also physically hard to shift for my hands. And for all their claims of being able to shift while stopped... No, if I came to a stop too soon after shifting down to low gear, getting moving felt like the bike was actively resisting me.

The concept of putting groceries in saddlebags, I'm not sure, but I think that might be out as well. I saw what they called large saddlebags at the store, and well... Yeah, doesn't seem very well adapted to groceries at all.

So for sure I need either a bike with a big trunk, either a trailer, either something absolutely genius.

Putting my purse in there as well seems dubious. Like, it'll fit, but squished every which way and stuff. I think I'm really going to want a front basket. So in short, Gazelle is probably out.

So, as for experiences.

The first Gazelle I rode felt fine. I don't remember it all that well I wish I'd taken my time with it more. But I was trying to speed things up, and well.

Although the saddle was supremely painful for some reason. All the rest rides this time around were a little painful due to me not having ridden seriously in a very long time, I guess, but this one was special.

The Riese & Müller Charger had such a thick top bar on the frame that I was regularly hurting my legs on it, and having to consciously spread my legs as I pedaled. I didn't think that mattered, but apparently it does.

The Multitinker was really interesting. The big trunk seems like a godsend for groceries. The tiny wheels are weird though. The bumps feel really weird because of them. Also it felt like I was brute forcing something really inefficient with enormous motor power. Hmm.

Now on to the Specialized Vado 3.0. My favourite test ride by far. Electric assistance felt extremely responsive, and the siste shifter was scary (sht-BANG with significant shock every shift) but responsive to the point I didn't understand the point of the Arroyo 380 shifter anymore. Although I was accompanied for all of it, so I actually entirely forgot to test stopping/starting and climbing hills without momentum.

He only had a medium sized bike. It was, eh, barely fine. It definitely felt like I was climbing on the bike, emphasis on climb. But while riding I didn't notice anymore, so I think the test is valid.

Although holy crap, what's wrong with the pedal cadence meter? To get it in the green, you have to pedal so freaking fast.

I was almost entirely sold on the bike, until the (very passionate, very nice) salesman started talking more. Well actually on the spot I totally believed him, but it was once I returned to the hotel that I started doubting him.

As I mentioned before, he said he didn't understand the point of anything more powerful than the 3.0. Which is kinda suspicious to me. I mean, if he'd told me he understood but thought I'd be better off with something cheaper for reasons XYZ, that'd be fine, but he didn't elaborate enough for me to entirely swallow it. Also, why would they make motors up to twice as powerful if they're pointless?

But it's the maintenance that's really giving me pause here. He says if I want my bike in good condition, I need to clean and lubricate the chain twice a winter, once or twice a summer, unless I want it rusted. And that doing that requires a warm, spacious space. Not possible for me. So I guess I'd have to visit a bike shop. But he says it'd probably be around 150 dollars each time. That's quite a bit of money. Almost feels like car mechanic money. I don't mind big one-time purchases, but significant recurring costs leave a bad taste in my mouth.

Also, apparently, at the level of the Vado 3.0, software updates are in store only. Remember, I live pretty dang far from any dealer.

As for the Tero X, he looked like he didn't understand why that product existed. He was like, why is it trying to be a mountain bike when it's not?

At this point I'm wondering if the right thing for me might be a belt drive that doesn't need to be maintained much, but with a much more responsive shifting system than the Enviolo 380. But is that even a thing?

Honestly I'm pretty lost. I feel like I'd need a LOT more rest rides and I don't think that's realistic.

Shopping for something as complicated as an e-bike when the dealers are far away is a nightmare.

 

[TrevorB]

If you are apply to regularly oil and clean a chain then bike with derailluer isn't good choice. The other downside is you can't shift while stopped. Besides the Nuvinci 380 Internal Geared Hub (IGH) there are also bikes with Shimanos Nexus 8spd IGH, some with belt others with singlespeed chain. While single speed chain does need the odd lub which is 2minute job they are lot more forgiving than derailluer chains from lack of maintenance and last 3 times as long. Also very cheap to replace.

Ebikes with Nexus 8spd will have lower powered motor eg Vado 3 power levels ie 50nm. There are 65nm motors with 5spd Nexus. Both IGH allow easy shifting when stopped but you do need to ease of on pedalling when shifting underway.

See Gazelle Ultimate C8 with Nexus 8 and belt drive. This has same motor as Medero T9 but more use friendly frame.

When comes to shopping I load items into pannier instead of drppping whole bag in as you get more in. At home just remove pannier and unload in the house. Light bulky items like toilet paper can be bungy to top of rack. I can fit a lot of groceries into a couple of 24L panniers. Take backpack for additional light bulky items.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Now on to the Specialized Vado 3.0. My favourite test ride by far. Electric assistance felt extremely responsive, and the siste shifter was scary (sht-BANG with significant shock every shift) but responsive to the point I didn't understand the point of the Arroyo 380 shifter anymore.

The point with any derailleur is you should momentarily pause pedalling on shifting. The sign of the proper shifting is lack of the noise or clunking. It is very easy to get used to it, even uphill (as long as your e-bike has some momentum; that's why we derailleur users shift in advance and ensure the e-bike is moving before the next downshift).

Your Specialized dealer is against keeping Vado 4 or 5 in stock: it is his business decision. My advice is this: In case you are happy with the 3.0 but feel the e-bike has not enough of oomph on climbing, just ask him for ordering a 4 or 5 for you. Or, order it online with the delivery through that dealer (if available and doable). In case you order at the store, your dealer will get the full commission. With the online order and the Home Delivery, your dealer will get a good commission without any additional cost for him.

I would not recommend the Vado IGH for two reasons: 1. I haven't tried it myself 2. There are mixed reviews on that version. It looks your dealer does not want to take a risk with handling the IGH version, and it is pretty understandable.

If you can afford it, go for the derailleur version of Vado 5.0. The strongest motor, the big battery (same on the 4.0), top components including excellent drivetrain and brakes (the latter being essential in the hills!)

 

[Eiri]

I would not recommend the Vado IGH for two reasons: 1. I haven't tried it myself 2. There are mixed reviews on that version.

Could you elaborate on those?

It would be good to be able to see for myself whether the cons outweigh the reduced maintenance.

The strongest motor, the big battery (same on the 4.0), top components including excellent drivetrain and brakes (the latter being essential in the hills!)

Do you think you could tell me more about these as well? I'm not very clear on what makes a good drivetrain or brakes, or what that actually changes.

My friend was telling me about getting the Vado 3.0 IGH, saving a buck on the fluff like the radar and stuff, but getting work done on it to change the ratios to make hills easier to climb, thus not really needing a strong motor as long as you stay away from the most extreme of hills. Apparently that's doable, although it requires a belt change and it makes the bike a tad slower. What do you think of that idea?

 

[TrevorB]

Should be possible to lower gearing on Vado 3.0. Will need larger rear sprocket which is likely to mean new belt. Not sure sizes belts come in as may need equivalent of few extra links/teeth. I'd price everything before buying bike as may just workout better to buy Vado.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Could you elaborate on those?

It would be good to be able to see for myself whether the cons outweigh the reduced maintenance.

Two users in these Forums were vocal about issues they experienced with their Vados IGH 5.0 (the ones having the automatic Enviolo gearbox). Both users bought a pair of those e-bikes for the family use. It was always one of the e-bikes of the pair that had some mechanical or electronic issues in each case. I attribute part of those issues to the incompetence of the LBS who might have not been trained in the intricacies of the advanced electronically controlled Internally Geared Hub.

(I haven't heard any reports on the performance of the lower models of Vado IGH, the ones with the manually controlled IGH).

If your Specialized dealer is unwilling to carry the IGH models that might mean he is not convinced he could service or handle these models. As I do not own or even have demo ridden any IGH e-bike, I do not want to spread misinformation though (we also have Forum users happy with their IGH Specialized e-bikes; these are just less vocal).

Do you think you could tell me more about these as well? I'm not very clear on what makes a good drivetrain or brakes, or what that actually changes.

My friend was telling me about getting the Vado 3.0 IGH, saving a buck on the fluff like the radar and stuff, but getting work done on it to change the ratios to make hills easier to climb, thus not really needing a strong motor as long as you stay away from the most extreme of hills. Apparently that's doable, although it requires a belt change and it makes the bike a tad slower. What do you think of that idea?

First of all, all Vado 3.0 come with a relatively smallish battery, which is 530 Wh. The Vado 4.0 and 5.0 models come with a big 710 Wh battery, which is in simple terms 34% bigger in the capacity that the smaller battery. A bigger battery means:

• Bigger range
• Capability to allow the rider achieve higher elevation gain (possible to ride through more hills)
• Less frequent charging of the battery, meaning longer battery life
• Longer battery life over the years to come when the battery starts degrading.

The battery charge is used to set your combo (you + e-bike + cargo) in motion and achieve the cruising speed; to ride for a distance; and to climb. Especially the latter greatly contributes to the battery charge use in the hilly area. Having a huge amount of energy in the battery is like having a big fuel tank on your car (longer distance and bigger hills on a single tank). Less frequent re-fuelling (battery charging) makes the battery cells live longer. Also, the battery will depreciate over its lifetime, that is, gradually the amount of energy in the fully charged battery will decrease (it is like the fuel tank in a car were gradually shrinking). It is better when the battery depreciation starts at 710 Wh than it would be with the 530 Wh battery. Bear in mind: The battery is the single most expensive e-bike part!

Now, the max motor power, which is expressed by torque for certain reasons:

• Vado 3.0: 50 Nm
• Vado 4.0: 70 Nm
• Vado 5.0: 90 Nm

In simple terms, the Vado 4.0 motor is 40%, and the Vado 5.0 one is 80% stronger than the motor of Vado 3.0. The bigger max motor power might become crucial with you climbing a hill with a trailer full of groceries! (The bigger torque is like having a car with the engine of more horse-power: you do not necessarily use the full engine power but you can do it in need; you cannot do anything with a less powerful car engine).

Now: Why do the 3.0 and 4.0 Vado IGH come with the manual IGH but the 5.0 has the AutomatiQ Heavy Duty IGH? The manual IGHs can withstand less motor power than the AutomatiQ Heavy Duty IGH. If you applied the full power of the motor to the manual IGH, the hub would internally fall apiece! (Chain/derailleur are not susceptible to the excessive motor power).

Componentry on the chain/derailleur Vado e-bikes:

• Vado 3.0: 48 teeth (T) chainring, 11-36T 9-speed entry level Shimano Alivio drivetrain; 160/180 mm two-piston hydraulic brakes
• Vado 4.0: 48T chainring, 11-42 11-speed mid-range price SRAM NX drivetrain; 180/180 mm two-piston hydraulic brakes
• Vado 5.0: 48T chainring, 11-42 11-speed high-end SRAM GX drivetrain; 180/180 mm four-piston hydraulic brakes

The drivetrain is like a car's manual transmission. The drivetrain in Vado 4.0 and 5.0 is far better than it is in Vado 3.0. It is easy (and cheap) to lower the gearing on the chain/derailleur system for far better climbing while it is hard to achieve that with the IGH. However, what makes Vado 5.0 stand out is the brakes. Fancy yourself @Eiri descending from a steep hill with your trailer full of goods (making your "combo" heavy) with inadequate brakes. Vado 5.0 has decidedly the best brakes for the Vado family, with the 4.0 coming next. If I were making a decision and lived in the hilly area, I would think of the best possible brakes in the first place!

Sorry for my lengthy post: Trying to help out!

 

[Dewey]

At this point I'm wondering if the right thing for me might be a belt drive that doesn't need to be maintained much, but with a much more responsive shifting system than the Enviolo 380. But is that even a thing?

Sorry to read you did not get on with the manual Enviolo. The Automatiq version just requires you set your cadence then the motor in the shifter will automatically change down gear when you approach a stop. The Automatiq version is available on the Specialized Turbo Vado and Como 5.0 IGH models, some Riese & Müller Vario models, and a few other models from brands including Tern, Serial 1, and Evelo.

For a belt drive with a different IGH for comparison this article introduces some newer models. Zen can build their step-through model with the 3x3 Nine IGH which should have optional manual trigger shifter or automatic shifting later this year. Their step-over Samurai model is also available with Kindernay VII with trigger shifter or Rohloff hubs. I wrote a blog post about the manual Enviolo 380 CVT, and my friend Dr Gregory Maassen who rode a Riese & Müller Super Charger 2 HS across the US last year wrote another blog post on the Rohloff with E14 automatic shifting. The upcoming FUELL Flluid-3 model should use the Valeo Cyclee all-in-one mid-drive motor + IGH.

Some of these models are impractical for your needs due to parts availability or manufacturer servicing requirements, for example Rohloff hubs must be serviced at a Rohloff dealer. Because you are concerned about local support, if you're unhappy about Enviolo you might consider dropping the belt and going with a widely available chain driven IGH that can be serviced and replaced by most bike shops, like the Shimano Nexus Inter-5e on the Electra Townie Go! 5i, or the Sturmey RX-RK5 on the Biktrix Stunner. For winter protection the Hebie chainglider is available for Nexus IGH, and there are other chaincase designs that might work with a Sturmey IGH.

 

[TrevorB]

Entry level brakes a fine for most users but they do require you to squeeze brake leveler harder than on higher quality brakes. The 4 pots on Vado 5.0 are overkill for trekking bike doesn't mean they aren't nice to have.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Entry level brakes a fine for most users but they do require you to squeeze brake leveler harder than on higher quality brakes. The 4 pots on Vado 5.0 are overkill for trekking bike doesn't mean they aren't nice to have.

Hallo? For descending from a Canadian hill while towing a trailer full of goods? "Nice to have"?! It is a must to have good brakes that wouldn't fade out on a long descent and allowed modulation braking!

Trevor, have you ever touched the brake rotor after a long mountain descent? (Hint: Never do it. It is hot!)

 

[Eiri]

I wrote a blog post about the manual Enviolo 380 CVT, and my friend Dr Gregory Maassen who rode a Riese & Müller Super Charger 2 HS across the US last year wrote another blog post on the Rohloff with E14 automatic shifting. The upcoming FUELL Flluid-3 model should use t

Those are definitely worth a read. Right now is difficult, but I'll be sure to check those out later.

Shimano Nexus Inter-5e on the Electra Townie Go! 5i

I may be mistaken, but wouldn't a 5-speed hub be a little limited for climbing capability?

the Sturmey RX-RK5 on the Biktrix Stunner.

From the model name, I'm guessing that's also a 5-speed hub? Would it also be kinda meh for hills?

The Automatiq version just requires you set your cadence then the motor in the shifter will automatically change down gear when you approach a stop.

Yep, definitely sounds like something I'll have to try for myself to know whether I like it.

Two users in these Forums were vocal about issues they experienced with their Vados IGH 5.0 (the ones having the automatic Enviolo gearbox). Both users bought a pair of those e-bikes for the family use. It was always one of the e-bikes of the pair that had some mechanical or electronic issues in each case. I attribute part of those issues to the incompetence of the LBS who might have not been trained in the intricacies of the advanced electronically controlled Internally Geared Hub.

Hmm, i wonder if maybe those were early adopter problems that were updated out of existence? Or is that too optimistic?

Now: Why do the 3.0 and 4.0 Vado IGH come with the manual IGH but the 5.0 has the AutomatiQ Heavy Duty IGH? The manual IGHs can withstand less motor power than the AutomatiQ Heavy Duty IGH. If you applied the full power of the motor to the manual IGH, the hub would internally fall apiece! (Chain/derailleur are not susceptible to the excessive motor power

Interesting. Is that an inherent problem that all manual IGHs will have, or is it just that the one they used to use wasn't that resistant so they replaced it with the latest thing?

The drivetrain is like a car's manual transmission. The drivetrain in Vado 4.0 and 5.0 is far better than it is in Vado 3.0.

I understood that, but I'm not sure I understand what it actually does when you have a better transmission. PS: I also don't know much about cars lol.

It is easy (and cheap) to lower the gearing on the chain/derailleur system for far better climbing while it is hard to achieve that with the IGH

Yeah, that's a good argument. Now the big question is whether that advantage outweighs the maintenance advantages of the IGH. Keep in mind: every time I have had to touch a chain in the past, it made me feel like the bike was failing at its him and made me want to chuck it in the garbage. I'm not a very manual person lol.

The guy at the Specialized dealer said a derailleur like that requires quite a few visits to a store every year to use summer or winter lubricant and redo the lubrication in general. That's the annoying part, considering I don't have a heated garage and live two floors off the ground.

However, what makes Vado 5.0 stand out is the brakes. Fancy yourself @Eiri descending from a steep hill with your trailer full of goods (making your "combo" heavy) with inadequate brakes.

So basically, it's as simple as: the 3.0 might not have enough stopping power if I descend a hill with heavy cargo?

 

[Dewey]

wouldn't a 5-speed hub be a little limited for climbing capability?

Yes, but lighter weight than a heavy Enviolo hub, and the Nexus Inter-5e is better designed to take the torque of a mid-drive motor than other Nexus or Alfine hubs. True, Gazelle use the Nexus-8 on the Ultimate C8, but after my BBS01 motor broke two Nexus-8 hubs I switched to an Enviolo Heavy Duty CVT and it works.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Hmm, i wonder if maybe those were early adopter problems that were updated out of existence? Or is that too optimistic?

I really cannot say Eiri. Having a qualified Specialized store at hand would be advisable.

Interesting. Is that an inherent problem that all manual IGHs will have, or is it just that the one they used to use wasn't that resistant so they replaced it with the latest thing?

Any IGH has some durability limits to withstand the torque delivered by the belt from the drive unit. To withstand the massive torque produced by the 90 Nm motor plus the rider's legs, an IGH of the proper rating must be used. Enviolo will not make a Heavy Duty manual IGH, it's the automatic version. Specialized selected the Heavy Duty AutomatiQ to match the motor power.

I understood that, but I'm not sure I understand what it actually does when you have a better transmission. PS: I also don't know much about cars lol.

More gears in more expensive drivetrain means smoother pedalling. The more expensive drivetrain has the gearing better suited for climbing (that could be further greatly improved with an inexpensive chainring replacement). The more expensive drivetrain the more smooth shifting is.

Yeah, that's a good argument. Now the big question is whether that advantage outweighs the maintenance advantages of the IGH. Keep in mind: every time I have had to touch a chain in the past, it made me feel like the bike was failing at its him and made me want to chuck it in the garbage. I'm not a very manual person lol.

The guy at the Specialized dealer said a derailleur like that requires quite a few visits to a store every year to use summer or winter lubricant and redo the lubrication in general. That's the annoying part, considering I don't have a heated garage and live two floors off the ground.

Yeah, that's a good argument for having a carbon drive belt and the IGH. Now, maintaining the chain is not that hard. In case of any failure, the derailleur/chain system can be easily fixed by any bike mechanic, while the belt/IGH failure requires a highly trained mechanic. Although I do not expect you to do a roadside fix of the rear wheel yourself, removing and replacing the rear wheel on the chain/derailleur system is easy for an average Joe. Removing the rear wheel on the belt/IGH system is tricky!

And it is not true cleaning and lubing of the chain requires summer or winter lubricants (it is dry weather or wet weather lube) or visiting the store. 99% of people can do it themselves. Or, if they neglect the chain maintenance, they pay something for the chain and the cassette replacement every year.

So basically, it's as simple as: the 3.0 might not have enough stopping power if I descend a hill with heavy cargo?

It might not be adequate enough! I usually spend up two weeks of vacation a year in the true mountains of Poland for road trips. I weigh some 96 kg, and my Vado 6.0 (nevermind the version number -- it is for Europe) weighs 26.4 kg. Add to it the necessary cargo (panniers with batteries of at least 10 kg). Descending a hill or a mountain makes the e-bike accelerate even to over 60 km/h. I need to counter that with "modulation braking", that, continually delicately depressing and then releasing brake levers to stay (preferably) at 45 km/h (it is a controllable speed). The modulation allows hot brake rotors cool a little on each brake lever release. It is not good to keep the brake levers depressed for all the descend! Doing the latter makes the brake rotors red hot, leading to "brake fading", that is, to the complete loss of the stopping power! Now, Vado 3.0 is equipped with smaller brake rotors (less of stopping power, slower heat release) and two pistons. Vado 4.0 has bigger rotors still two pistons. Vado 5.0 has very good brakes (4-piston), adequate to your situation. I would simply consider that.

 

[Eiri]

99% of people can do it themselves

The salesman said I would need a dry, warm space to do that. So since I live pretty high up and my bike shed isn't heated, I figured I'd need several visits a year. Do I? I'm starting to doubt everything.

It might not be adequate enough! I usually spend up two weeks of vacation a year in the true mountains of Poland for road trips. I weigh some 96 kg, and my Vado 6.0 (nevermind the version number -- it is for Europe) weighs 26.4 kg. Add to it the necessary cargo (panniers with batteries of at least 10 kg). Descending a hill or a mountain makes the e-bike accelerate even to over 60 km/h. I need to counter that with "modulation braking", that, continually delicately depressing and then releasing brake levers to stay (preferably) at 45 km/h (it is a controllable speed). The modulation allows hot brake rotors cool a little on each brake lever release. It is not good to keep the brake levers depressed for all the descend! Doing the latter makes the brake rotors red hot, leading to "brake fading", that is, to the complete loss of the stopping power! Now, Vado 3.0 is equipped with smaller brake rotors (less of stopping power, slower heat release) and two pistons. Vado 4.0 has bigger rotors still two pistons. Vado 5.0 has very good brakes (4-piston), adequate to your situation. I would simply consider that

That was a flawless explanation. Thanks! I had never thought about giving the brakes a break by not using them for the whole decent.

Though, sort of unrelated, but now that I think of it, it's somewhat surprising to me that they aren't trying to to regenerative braking yet.

Since there's a Specialized dealer relatively close by (still about an hour away but much better than the 5 hours I just traveled to see Specialized, Gazelle, and Riese & Müller in the same city).

I ought to try and see with them if they can prepare 5.0 bikes (IGH and non IGH) for me to try. and maybe a 3.0 with manual IGH so I can feel the difference?

They don't seem to make the 4.0 with an IGH, so I don't think the comparison would be very useful. A derailleur is a derailleur, I guess.

That trip would likely be a lot easier to ask someone to do with me, too.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The salesman said I would need a dry, warm space to do that. So since I live pretty high up and my bike shed isn't heated, I figured I'd need several visits a year. Do I? I'm starting to doubt everything.

He wants some business for himself, nothing wrong about it.

Because of certain issues I have been experiencing for the last two years, I need to store my full power Vado inside my car (that I hardly use). I keep a big piece of cardboard under my Vado. Regardless the weather, and whenever I need to maintain the chain, I pull my e-bike from the car, place the cardboard on the ground, flip the Vado upside down to rest on the carton and put cheap work-gloves on, with a piece of rag in my left hand.

Then... If it's the cold season I simply spray the "All-In-One" type degreaser/lube onto the chain (protecting the bike with the rag underneath, move the chain with my right hand, and continue until the whole chain has been sprayed. Then I just wipe the chain dry. In the warm season, I first apply the automotive brake cleaner on the chain and the cassette. I let both dry up a little, then apply bike chain lube, a droplet on each roller pin. After it has been done, I wipe the chain dry, put the bike on its wheels and can go on a ride.

Of course it might sound scary for you!

Though, sort of unrelated, but now that I think of it, it's somewhat surprising to me that they aren't trying to to regenerative braking yet.

Oh, it has been tried. The research has shown that the energy recovery for a relatively lightweight moving e-bike combo could recover up to 5% of the energy only. The only technical realisation would be a huge Direct Drive hub motor (that could easily weigh as much as 11 kg!), which would be rather anti-cycling. (The situation with the electric car is different because the car is very heavy compared to the e-bike).

I ought to try and see with them if they can prepare 5.0 bikes (IGH and non IGH) for me to try. and maybe a 3.0 with manual IGH so I can feel the difference?

You can try, although I am not sure if the dealer would like doing that. First of all, they would need to put all these e-bikes in stock, which costs money. My Specialized Brand Store salesman told me: "We do not offer the top of the line e-bikes for demo rides. Yes, we keep a Vado 5.0 IGH in stock. In case you are almost decided to buy that e-bike, we will gladly assemble one for you so you could make sure in our parking lot". Necessary to say, that very store has my full trust about their expertise based on the past experience.

It is not that they are afraid I would steal their e-bike! Simply, a demo ride returns the e-bike in the "not new" shape. They keep several demo e-bikes on the floor but these are low-end models.

 

[Eiri]

He wants some business for himself, nothing wrong about it.

Oh, he knows I live way too far away to give him any return business. He's just taking bike shops in general.

Of course it might sound scary for you!

More like soul-sucking. Man would I hate every second of that.

You can try, although I am not sure if the dealer would like doing that

What? But ESPECIALLY for high-end bikes with high-tech automatic transmissions, isn't it doubly important to make sure? I understand that it's a lot of money for them, but it's a lot of money for me, too!

I could go without trying the Vado 5.0 with the derailleur. I've already tried the 3.0, so I figure it's just that, but more better. But the IGH version has a belt and a really unique shifting system. I don't see how I can just trust that it'll probably be okay, especially after the Enviolo 380 was decidedly  not okay.

I mean, when people buy a luxury car, I'm guessing they especially want to make damn sure everything is as they want it?