The Sondors Bike is Unravelling a Bit

[wa5]

Tom N, I think Ian has to keep asking his questions to anybody that will listen, because Sondors / Indiegogo / Agency 2.0 have not answered them.

I guess you could argue they are too busy and just didn't notice his questions, But, given that they have canned him from the IGG comments page, I don't think that argument could stand..

Which leaves the question, Why would they not address what are, some pretty reasonable concerns?

Its understandable why people may be a little reluctant to invest in a crowd funded campaign, by their very nature they are higher on promises than guarantees. showing a little transparency could only help the campaign, (and the right answers might even serve to silence trolls / paid shills such as my good self). In my opinion Agency 2.0 have really dropped the ball on this, which is rather suprising, given their stellar success in most other facets of this journey ( I don't necessarily agree with some of the things they have done.) but it has been a very successful job.

Members of the Sondors owners group (at this point, a somewhat hopeful title). have stated that Ian's' questions on the IGG site have hurt the enterprise.. (honestly it has been a runaway success, I don't think any questions raised by Ian, myself or anybody else has made one bit of difference)... The thing that does look bad on that page, is the large number of supporters that have sprung to the brands defense, not with reasoned argument, but with a foaming mouthed obsessiveness, flinging insults and personal attacks at a bloke who simply wants a few questions answered.. .... some of the supporters group come across as cultists, as unreasonable lunatics (take Philip Hillis' charge that both Ian and I are Paid apologists, do you seriously believe that? its the talk of somebody who has a problem, a persecution complex that is far from healthy skepticism).. Ian is just one man asking one set of questions, how many true believers does it really take to deal with him?. If I were a Sondorite, I would have asked all supporters to leave him alone, and tasked the smartest and most polite person in the group to deal with him, it has not put Sondors owners in a good light.... you come across as nothing more than bullies.

Perhaps we are all to close to this to be able to evaluate our behaviour clearly.. so, A challenge Tom, I'm sure you have some level headed friends, get one of them to read the exchanges between Ian and the Sondorites (yes you have my permission to use that ). and get their honest take. I feel pretty sure they will say you have done more damage to the IGG page than Ian Has.

I have one or two eyes on the facebook owners page (and I'm not the only one).. Bruce Choate knows I'm there, I don't post there, as it would only be inflammatory, no matter what I posted. But I do observe, and what I see concerns me. It feels a bit like Germany in the thirties, anybody who is not a true believer is rapidly attacked by everybody else, then taken out and shot, and their image held up for ridicule for days.. I'd cite the bike shop owner as an example.... even the true believers have to be careful they don't say the wrong thing... even Tom Gin , a true Sondorite if ever I saw one, was careful to preface some very reasonable comments on potential product / warranty issues with "NOW I AM NOT COMPLAINING -" .... as he probably knew the wolf pack would tear him apart, if they perceived his comments as being outside the groups accepted limits..

There are other goings on, in the owners group that are a long way from ok (a level headed person whould know to which post I am referring ) criticizing the owners group will probably get me booted and simultaneously prove my point.. .

Finally (and I've said it before) I think the bikes' appearance is awesome, it looks great, who ever was responsible for the colour choice and the battery cover has hit upon a winning combination. as to specs, They are about what I'd expect, its a cheap E bike, not the second coming. honesty about the specs... less than impressed.

I hope everybody gets their bike and gets out and enjoys it..

One last thing, why did I bother arguing this point for so long? Pretty simple really, by calling me a paid Shill, Philip has effectively called me a liar, I'm not and I don't like the accusation.... I cant speak for Ian Grace on this matter but I'd assume something similar ...

 

[wa5]

From the Storm Owners Facebook Forum (QUOTE)
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)Is this the post your referring to wa5 Sorry but he had this coming he brought it on himself. Yes I know your keeping an eye out here. Ian asked question got answered, did not like the answer so kept pushing kept digging kept insulting and kept slandering he should have stopped. Now he has the nerve to say he is the victim in all this well thats just BS. This will be my last post about the troll he got what he had coming. The campaign comment section is so much more enjoyable to read now. Please post Ian's email for us so we can send him pictures of our Storm Bikes when we get them this spring.

(END)

Micheal, yes, that is the thread I'm referring to (sorry I wont post on the owners forum for the reasons spelt out above)... Can you honestly say that you are comfortable with all the posts in the "don't feed the troll" thread?

As to Ian getting his answers, Several people have claimed that, but I my self have not seen them, so I cant offer an opinion on whether I feel they do indeed address Ian's' concerns. if you could steer me towards them, or put them up here or on the owners page (from which I will cut and paste them here).. I'll be more than happy to give you my take on them.. If I think that Ian has mis understood or mis interpreted them, I'll say so.

and if you like what I write, I'm more than happy for you to put it up on the owners page, cant say fairer than that.

you can find a list of Ians questions in the " Bruce Choate "thread

 

[lilrich1959]

Once upon a time there was a boy called Grumblededum who went to the village to shop. When he got to the village he saw all the people gathered in the square excited and shouting. What is all the excitement about Grumblededum asked, but no one he asked knew. So he pushed and squirmed into the crowd till finally he was so wedged into the crowd he could barely breathe. Again he asked what all the excitement was about but those around him only pushed harder and said they did not know. He worked his way farther and farther toward the center of the town square where the hub bub seems to be centered. As he grew closer the excitement and noise continuously grew, finally there was only one row of people in front of him. He saw them throwing all their money and possessions into the center of the square. Why are they doing this he shouted to those around him but they could not hear him. He saw a large man ahead of him empty his pockets and throw it to the center and could hear a strange voice thanking the man. The man then turned around facing him but would not let him pass. Why do you block my way said Grumblededum and what is all the excitement about. I have paid the man named Mrots all I hold so dear, for promises of prosperity for all my days. What riddles do you speak said Grumblededum. The man replied that Mrots had showed him a magic corn which one seed will grow a whole field and then some and do so year after year. Let me pass said Grumblededum I must have some too. The man replied there is only the one seed that Mrots has shown and must fetch that promised to me. For my part I have paid the price and a promise to give safe passage to him to fetch my prize, so we cannot let you pass. Grumblededum said to the man there is no magic corn and the man's stance faultered. Persistent Grumblededum kept talking till the man seemed to doubt his wisdom too. Grumblededum said I will give you a silver coin if you let me pass for I must have a look, I will not betray your trust and say you tried your best to stop me. So the man took the coin and let Grumblededum squeeze through. When Grumblededum got past he saw an empty square with everyones back to him and the crowd behind trying to push in. No one stood with him, named Mrots or not. Grumblededum shouted till the people heard there is no corn the man named Mrots is gone and so are your valuables. The crowd became angry and shouted, he went to get our corn, give him time. Grumblededum kept shouting that they were fooled but the crowd became angrier because they did not want to think of themselves as fools. Grumblededum kept shouting till the crowd became enraged and started throwing rocks. Finally Grumblededum's voice grew still as the last rock found it's mark. The crowd grew quiet and still as they realized what they had done. They faded away and to their homes hiding their shame. No one saw the weary stranger as he came into the town late at night. Dragging his heavy burden he came to the mound of stones in the square but no one came out to greet him. From the bag slung over his shoulder he grabbed a single kernel of corn and placed it on the barren stone mound. When the townspeople awoke the next morning to face their shame they found a most magnificent stalk of corn growing in the center of town as is does till this day....

 

[EULITTLB]

Nobody whatsoever has responded to any concerns whatsoever to clarify the spec for EU customers, the tax position, the performance claims or why there are damning inconsistencies in the things Sondors said, and what he know says. (In fact I think Bruce attempted to answer three but that convo stalled, but it isn't Bruces' job to do guesswork for Sondors/Agency 2.0 is it?)

We are now at the point where those rewarded for early pledges, rather than see the price rise dramatically (nobody can possibly believe that the bike will ever retail for $1299 surely - it is just price baiting spin) they have see the piece only rise $100 to the end of the (first) campaign and then a further $50 at the commencement of the 30 day extension. Fair enough, there are those who want to post pictures of their bikes if and when they receive them to show they were right and I was wrong - big deal, nothing alters the fudginess of this Campaign and the false and misleading claims in relation to performance, nobody will receive a bike that performs as they are being led to believe.

Michael Fortier - please substantiate these claims, but you can't can you? You try and slur my name and demean my threads, you also encouraged Nick Hull to damage my iPhone (or at least attempt to) - shame on who? Ian asked question got answered, did not like the answer so kept pushing kept digging kept insulting and kept slandering he should have stopped. Now he has the nerve to say he is the victim in all this well thats just BS.

Because I have been abused and insulted and slandered - paid scumbag troll (@biknut), allegations that I am a Florida bikeshop owner who legal action was taken against for harassing women offline (Ryan Mercer), claims that there is evidence from a reliable source that I am a paid troll employed by a major us ebike manufacturer (the.insurance.guy) and verification of that knowingly slanderous allegation by Chris Olenik of Agency 2.0 - and now threats and intimidation from Nick Hull to damage my iPhone and that he knows my business and other details about me as if he is some sort of Inspector Clueso. I have a trail on the Internet, I run an online business shipping globally(!) - Sondors and John Hopp, however do not.

This makes me more determined to keep pushing for people to understand the false claims and inconsistencies, but I am mindful of Courts' advice to be thoughtful and sincere etc. Consider this in light of what I have faced to date.

 

[EULITTLB]

.....as to any allegation that I have damaged this Campaign, my position remains the same - the Campaign Owner and Agency 2.0 are entirely responsible for this state of affairs, failing to answer reasonable questions and peddling inconsistent information, false claims and lies to get people to pledge on a non-refundable basis. If I was cynical I would suggest that the Campaign has been extended in order to prevent early pledgers from claiming refunds, and also because they have no idea about the shipping cost or timescales which were to be advised before the end of the campaign...... they haven't got a clue how to handle things...... I would try and buy time too. Sondors will be taking pictures of the manufacturing (?) process and the factory etc, probably to try and reassure dissatisfied contributors and to give the Campaign more momentum.

Correct me if I am mistaken but I think the pledge amount exceeded $3m after 10 days, and it has just tailed off since then - so $3.8m after 30 days, what do you think the total will be? No more than $4.5-5m after 60 days appears to be a fair estimate IMHO - there is nothing innovative about assembling a cheap bike in China and exaggerating the performance when you had been claiming to be a manufacturing genius managing everything in-house and having built your bike from scratch with tools sourced from all over the world.

 

[George S.]

I noticed that the EBR video is now on the Sondo/IGG website. Same deal with Tynan?

Unfortunately, the only way a journalist can protect himself is to ask all the tough questions. You try to keep it too friendly, and they do, well, this.

 

[wa5]

Bruce sent me through a list of answers (in blue ) to Ians Questions (in red ) on IGG.. my comments in black..

1) legal EU option I was referring to. 350W cannot be used on the roads. Is Charger 220-240v?

1) why would they make an EU only version, besides most who already contributed for one in Europe would get angry for not getting the 350w version, if you speak with George S. on EBR, he'll tell you the bike will only have 240w of actual power an a 15mph speed because of resistance values.

I think they should make the bike legal for the country it is being shipped to, Had this been a US only campaign, it would not be an issue, but Sondors have offered international shipping, They have a responsibility to ensure the bike and charger is legal and able to operate in the market to which it is delivered. There is I think, one person who is ordering one from Australia, and six in the UK, none of them are going to be impressed If they cant charge and ride their new bikes.

2) Clarity for all those believing they are buying an affordable bike $499/$599 + shipping + sales taxes might not be so great. Just honesty needed

2) stupid question laws were past here that if taxes aren't taken, the consumer is required to report and pay them. <- his tax liability question

If that's the accepted practice in the US, ok, but again the bike is being sold all over the world, Even a little (Plus applicable taxes) near the price, and a facility where such questions can be answered by members of the campaign would be adequate.

3) are performance figures guaranteed or subject to change?

3) bike at demo is production version, no changes expected

Bruce, can you see how that might ring alarm bells, They had the production bike, but still got the weight so wrong (its not a good look that somebody rocks up with a set of scales and shows the bike is 1/4 heavier then advertised), in the only test (the ride in the park) on that bike, Sondors is getting it wrong on more than one occasion, The weight, the braking system, (and you will probably argue, but I'm going to say he (Storm) got it wrong about making parts in house.. because I think we can all agree in this day and age, sourcing off the shelf components would be the better way to go)..

4) is battery certified globally and is shipping extra for the battery?

4) photo of battery shows all proper certification world wide <-in the fact section
Fair enough, and since freight hasn't been finalized but has upper limits set, I think that has been answered.. BUT there is still the matter of the charger, will it be suitable for the country the bike is shipped to?

5) Can a bike be made available to the professional bike press for evaluation?
5) Already has been <-relates to his media question
I've not seen a real test of the bike.... apart from the gentle ride in the park.. and that was nothing like a real test- the kind that Court would undertake.

6) When can contributors expect delivery – May or September 2015?
6) Very clearly stated <-relates to his shipping date which has never changed
I'm assuming May, obviously allowing for the port strikes?

Thankyou for coming back to me on this Bruce.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do have some additional thoughts and queries on this.

QUESTIONS.
Where is Storms' Partner, Jon Hopp, has he shown his face or given an interview? what is the story with him joining a media organization when he has bikes to ship? was this company the one filming at the open day? http://www.btlnews.com/community/whos-where/editor-jon-hopp-joins-optimus/
Am I the only one a little concerned by Jons media savvy and lack of reported "design genius"? and again, given his apparent media savvy, why can I find so few references to him in relation to the bike?

It now seems likely that Storm and Ivars are the same person, what was the reported court case all about, does anybody have any facts?

There was claimed to be a second bike, has anybody laid eyes on it?

The second bike (which nobody has seen) was shipped to China for "Production", Why, the bike at the open day is a "locked in" production bike... to my way of thinking, if its a production spec bike, the factory has all the information they need?

Just on the one existing production bike that we have all seen, was it sourced from China or put together in the US.. The green rimmed big banger with no pedals was supposedly put together in the states?

At the open day, the bike was ridden by over 100 people, the video I saw showed them being encouraged not to pedal, just twist the throttle and go... as they took off and then turned around, that equates to 200 acceleration runs.. and apparently the battery had plenty left at the end of the day... given the battery specs, does that seem likely? NOTE that I am not criticizing if they did indeed substitute a bigger battery as I suspect, it just seems like common sense in that situation, BUT not mentioning it does lack transparency.

OBSERVATIONS..

Storm seems like a nice enough bloke from the videos I've seen.. but appears to know little about the product he is selling, If he was part of the design and building process over the last year, I'd expect him to know more about the bike and what ever back up needs to go along with it. Its not ok to use Aspergers as an excuse for not answering questions. this is a multi million dollar campaign If Storm cant answer questions, Jon Hopp, his partner should make himself available to do so, and why isn't he the front man given his media background?

This campaign lacks transparency, It seems that Agency 2.0 is making some very good money out of this, but aren't managing some aspects of the job very well at all. This whole s*it storm could have been avoided with some very simple answers to some very reasonable questions, not answering those questions makes me think Storm has something to hide... As I said, very bad management. If Storm is struggling with the PR side of things and cant answer questions, and Jon Hopp is off at his new job, then why is 2.0 not stepping in to help?

I feel any design imput into the bike by Storm or Jon has been negligible, The bike is I think, something virtually straight from alibaba. with a few added nik naks and bright colours.

Finally, the behavior of some members of the owners forum has been beyond loathsome, how anybody could think that the insults and name calling that members have entered into is acceptable is beyond me, show me one instance where Ian cast the first stone so that such a response might be understandable.

How anybody could encourage behavior such as displayed by Nick Hull I just cant fathom, normal sane people do not think its ok to give out somebodies name , address or telephone number over the internet, or worse still admit on a public forum that you were one step away from performing a cyber crime (and then be monumentally stupid enough to give a lay mans explanation on how its done.. especially when your job is head of IT.), simply because you disagree with what he says, that's phsychotic. I wonder if being on a federal government watch list reduces ones' scope for future employment?
If it were my page, Nick would be shown the door, nobody wants that kind of trouble.

Bruce, you and your members have done more to harm Sondors IGG campaign through the comments page than Ian Grace would ever be able to achieve by himself.

Why anybody with any PR savvy would direct potential customers to your owners page is beyond me, its commercial suicide (it would be like VW pointing customers towards a Neo Nazi site), of the 500 odd members, you have what? 20 or 30 regular posters, and all they can obsess about is one bloke in Pomgolia? or behave like zealots, attacking anybody who dares question the holey bike..

Like I said to Tom, get one of your more level headed friends to take a look at the owners site and the IGG site and get an unbiased take....

Bruce you seem to have the ear of Chris from 2.0, I'd be interested in his thoughts. I do think that some of the criticisms and questions above really do need to be addressed by him or Storm.

I suspect however the above rant will have me on your ignore list

Trev.

 

[EULITTLB]

Bruce reassured me that the bike on the demo day was the production model - just guesswork because the Campaign Owner needs to validate this and many other things.

I was right not to listen to Bruce, Philip has just declared the following

At this point we don't even know exactly what the delivered bike will be like, because Storm is discussing upgrading some of the features further.

Nobody knows what is really going on do they? And this all lies at the door of the Campaign Owner and Agency 2.0, just wait for the Aspergers excuses to begin, I am sickened by this.

 

[wa5]

I think Tom Gin has summed it up quiet nicely...

(Quote Tom Gin Sondors Owerns Group)
Tom GinHe's not the charming business guy he may aspire to - or maybe he is just too busy making real money that he doesn't care about fostering real good will within our community by replying lickity-split quick? Give him another 3 minutes to reply before passing judgement irrevocably.

(END)

I reckon that sums up the Storm campaign, and its lack of communication with its customers and potential customers, better than I ever could, Thanks Tom

 

[EULITTLB]

But now they have hired a person to handle the social media side of things......... who is waiting to be briefed......... yes as we all are!!!!

What Sondors has shown is people want to buy an ebike if it is cheap enough (whether or not it performs as claims or will actually become a reality).

I wonder if anyone has tried selling a concept car for $1000 with superb performance and frugality - I wonder of that will sell?

 

[wa5]

and then come up with this.... Behold Sondors 2.0 special "Indie" race edition.. it really Go Gos

 

[wa5]

And I've been punted from the Storm owners forum, probably because I don't own a Storm. then again nobody else does either... ah well, as Groucho Marx used to say, I wouldn't want to be part of any club that would have me as a member.

Thanks for the opportunity to observe the members for so long Bruce. it was very instructional....

 

[EULITTLB]

Just woke up Trevor, the whole thing is ugly and distressful, people are set in their respective camps of suspicion or adoration and still not a word from the Campaign Owner and I remain highly dubious and it seems some people are getting the same feeling on the IGG Comments page.

 

[wa5]

I guess I got banned because they figured out I am Philip Hillis,, or was it you are bikenut, or Theodore Voltaire is George's Aunty's bus drivers, hair dressers, travel agents, third cousin.. lol

 

[User 123]

I like Ebikes!

 

[wa5]

Bruce Choate
2 days ago


The CAD drawings were for the battery box, the originals were most likely vacuumed formed and not suitable for mass production like injection molds. The cost to have an injection mold build usually runs around $15k. The frame is most likely is from an already produced model, the rest of the parts just have to be ordered from suppliers. I’m sure actual production of our eBikes are still at least few weeks away, but once production starts, you’ll see hundreds of bikes assembled each day. (END QUOTE)...

Silly question, what if the Storm had only reached 100 percent of its funding goal of $75,000? 20 percent of the money would have gone to tooling costs for the plastic battery case, and that's without the cost of any other materials, labour, anything..

This would have left $400 per bike to design and tool all other parts that required those steps, buying in all the items that needed to be, assembling, painting, and packing the bikes... that's after IGG and 2.0 take out their chunk.. and Sondors and John Hopp get a little taste also.... even assuming those costs come to $25 per bike (reckon I'm being uber generous here... I really don't think iggystormdars2.0 would have went to all this trouble for the princely sum of $3750.. do you?

So, assuming the axis of evil did their sums and felt they could turn a reasonable profit at a minimum order of 150 bikes, what does this tell us?

It says to me that Storm going to China to now "design " any aspect of the bike is total bullshit. the place that is building the bike is the original Alibaba supplier, I doubt the second "prototype" ever left the Chinese factory.. as the cost of shipping it back to China by air freight would have taken most or all of Storms profit margin, had the funding only reached 100%.

if that is the case, the pictures of CAD designs for the battery cover are pure theatre.. and those pictures are simply rehashed pictures of the original Alibaba design.. just something to appease the wood ducks... #JoePah & #J.R. might be able to share their thoughts on this, given their experiences in the field?

Or, the alternative is that Bruce Choate is merely pulling numbers out of his ass, and has little idea of the costs involved or any other aspect of a campaign such as this.

 

[EULITTLB]

Trev, another member actually told me that the battery housing design was not original and was copied from another Chinese manufacturer. I'll leave it up to them to supply the name of the firm, of course as the campaign has raised nearly $4m and there is a team of one running the show dealing with 7500+ bikes to deliver then there is nothing to worry about!

 

[J.R.]

It says to me that Storm going to China to now "design " any aspect of the bike is total bullshit. the place that is building the bike is the original Alibaba supplier, I doubt the second "prototype" ever left the Chinese factory.. as the cost of shipping it back to China by air freight would have taken most or all of Storms profit margin, had the funding only reached 100%.

if that is the case, the pictures of CAD designs for the battery cover are pure theatre.. and those pictures are simply rehashed pictures of the original Alibaba design.. just something to appease the wood ducks... #JoePah & #J.R. might be able to share their thoughts on this, given their experiences in the field?

I can't get into the war of words, I need to save my blood-pressure for biking! I saw the pics, and the processes that relate to the industry in which I work are design, metal fab, injection molding and paint. I have nothing to do with consumer goods or retail trade. The photos weren't taken for proof of the industrial processes, they were taken for the masses to relate to. I can speculate why these photos may have little to do with manufacturing, but to what end? To have arguments with 6 people online? Again, to what end? Moreover I've never been to China or worked in the bicycle industry! I have no idea how backward or advanced their factories or processes are. I have seen it posted that these photos were taken in a state of the art factory, it would not be a state of the art factory in the west. Nor would the processes depicted be state of the art. But again these pictures were for the masses, public relations... and it's worked.

Peace

 

[wa5]

U.S. Shipping was to be capped at $194, but would be "less than that" depending on numbers of bikes shipped, "the more bikes sold, the cheaper shipping would be"... Now the "shipping perk" is $199 for US delivery.. no talk of any discount.. and an extra forty grand for Mr Storm... (a similar amount to the 2011 judgment against him... how convenient )...

(FROM INDIEGOGO)..
the.insurance.guy
1 hour ago
Chris or Storm

**Shipping is a variable cost based on volume/location. The more we sell the cheaper it is. We can guarantee it will be less than $194 each for USA and $250 for International.

What gives were you stringing us along all this time. Why are the shipping perks the same???
(END)

not a good look when even your most ardent cultists are beginning to ask questions... I'm sure bikenut will keep the faith till the end..

 

[wa5]

Court, I hope this is ok (perhaps would be better in the for sale section?).
I have decided to start an Indiegogo Campaign, for the T shirt below, it will be made of the finest wool (or perhaps cotton or maybe some kind of extremely itchy flammable material that causes warts), the printing will be hand lettered by virgins aged 18 to 24 who are fed only the finest natural foods prepared by a shau-lin monk.. (or perhaps sprayed on by some guy named "Bob" with some supercheap spray paint).. The one thing I absolutely guarantee is that freight cost wont go over $194 *

(*not a guarantee)

(I spent $649 on a Storm E bike, and all I got was this T shirt (and ripped off on freight)