The Sondors Bike is Unravelling a Bit

[wa5]

I put this up in the prodecotech thread as well, but thought it had relevance in the Sondors threads as well ..... has anybody heard of Prodecotech performing any kind of "cash for comment deal as has been alledged by Tom Gin on the Storm Indiegogo stie.. or is this just more sour grapes over prodecotech protecting their trade mark?
(QUOTE FROM TOM GIN ON INDIEGOGO / SONDORS SITE)
Tom Gin
26 minutes ago
Attention – Prodeco has been cited as paying someone to post excessive online attacks and good remarks about Prodeco on another E Bike site. It is heavily suspected they are doing the same here. This is established over several months by others who were critical of the horrible problems with Prodeco. Be wary of the entities here who are negative and critical. Also note we have CONFIRMED some here have faked IDs to trick you into thinking many are critical when it is only ONE (or 2) person(s)!

(END)

 

[EULITTLB]

@wa5 I have already passed some (historical) comments alleging that I am a paid troll to Prodeco, Tom Gin is a banana slapper of the worst kind, making unfounded and slanderous accusations that he is simply making up to suit his own argument - as before I am quite transparent as to who and where I am. I am not the sort of bloke who gets paid to say anything, but credit where credit is due (to me anyway lol) it must seem like I am getting paid! Good observations with the shipping cost debacle, for the.insurance.guy to speak out is incredible, I thought he was one-half of a pantomime horse with his head so far up Sondors backside it was untrue!

At least if I was paid it could have gone to paying for some of the BMW Cruise ebikes I have just ordered, yea great business for Prodeco.

 

[PoweredUp!]

Hope Prodeco isn't involved in any smear campaign against Sondors... Their marketing is completely different, retail vs crowdfunding.. Can't see how one affects the other.

 

[wa5]

Hope to see some pictures of the Beemers once they arrive.. Nobody else has come back with anything about Prodeco doing the payola thing.... so I'd agree Mr Gin is living in la la land.

 

[George S.]

Indiegogo is doing really well with their other campaigns. This bike has netted exactly 0 dollars about halfway through the campaign.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/world-s-best-value-electric-bike-from-only-399

The other campaign was launched a week ago, and got pulled a day or two later. They knocked some money off the price and changed the focus a little. Then they launched again yesterday. But, today, it is back off the roster at IGG. It had zero dollars yesterday.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ezy-bike-599-folding-ebike-worlds-lowest-priced

The fact that Sondo is now putting up a $199 'perk' just to get your bike is, to say the least, confusing. They don't say what they are doing, generally, so who knows what that 'perk' means. This is the IGG graphic on the failing ebike campaign that was taken down:

Maybe that's what the Sondo people are asking about the $194 shipping guarantee?

 

[EULITTLB]

@PoweredUp! Just to explain, Phillip Hillis and others on the IGG forum, including the banana slapper from Agency 2.0 claim to have had sight of evidence that I or others work or are paid by Prodeco to damage the Sondors Campaign - damage it by repeatedly pointing out false claims, inconsistencies, exaggerated performance figures - you don't have to pay me to do that! Glad that the scam of the shipping which was announced recently on the IGG site to be MUCH LESS than the guaranteed cap of $194 is.......... wait for it............. $199. They are that desperate and have cut so many corners who knows what, or when, pledgers will (hopefully) get something.

 

[PoweredUp!]

@PoweredUp! Just to explain, Phillip Hillis and others on the IGG forum, including the banana slapper from Agency 2.0 claim to have had sight of evidence that I or others work or are paid by Prodeco to damage the Sondors Campaign - damage it by repeatedly pointing out false claims, inconsistencies, exaggerated performance figures - you don't have to pay me to do that! Glad that the scam of the shipping which was announced recently on the IGG site to be MUCH LESS than the guaranteed cap of $194 is.......... wait for it............. $199. They are that desperate and have cut so many corners who knows what, or when, pledgers will (hopefully) get something.

Yeah I have no idea why you would care enough to critcize their bike endeavour, or why they would care what you think about their bike purchase. You guys have no impact on each other, other than making each other miserable.. What's the point?

 

[EULITTLB]

As I was a potential purchaser nearly duped into thinking these claims were credible I have every right to speak out if I wish to - I don't care about Sondors, I do care about people who have been misled - why am I making myself miserable? Researching things myself I've just bought 5 ebikes, I am fairly happy thanks - I come on this forum to find like-minded people and to discuss perspectives/aspects of the Campaign, if it doesn't float-your-boat so-to-speak then I am sorry.

 

[George S.]

@EULITTLB -- I'm with you. Knowing what you don't want clarifies what you do want. I bought a front hub system, plan to put that on my hybrid that has been lying around. I'm experimenting with batteries, trying to find a happy medium. I'm more committed to ebikes than ever, find they are just easier on my joints and all. So I might sell the road bike. Might even buy the Karmic CF if he can pull it off about where he is now. Storm is not the only one playing games. I'm a lot more dubious about ebikes in general, and I'd really rather do as much as I can from here on out. If people can use the CF thing in a way that works for me, without the garbage, I might go along. It does give people some capital, some flexibility.

 

[J.R.]

@EULITTLB -- I'm with you. Knowing what you don't want clarifies what you do want. I bought a front hub system, plan to put that on my hybrid that has been lying around. I'm experimenting with batteries, trying to find a happy medium. I'm more committed to ebikes than ever, find they are just easier on my joints and all. So I might sell the road bike. Might even buy the Karmic CF if he can pull it off about where he is now. Storm is not the only one playing games. I'm a lot more dubious about ebikes in general, and I'd really rather do as much as I can from here on out. If people can use the CF thing in a way that works for me, without the garbage, I might go along. It does give people some capital, some flexibility.

I would feel a little better with Kickstarter than Indiegogo, a little! I've also been looking at Karmic and Karmic has more of an internet presence than SS had. An etrail to follow. So far I'm impressed with Karmic, hopefully when they are able to release the bike's specs, they will be real-world and complete. If I have any doubts I won't back it, stormagogo has taught me that. Thanks Sondors!

 

[EULITTLB]

Thanks for that, there is no need or wish to go over old ground, why did I buy the BMW Cruise ebike at 3.5x the cost of the Sondors?

1) Developed solution with professional design - beautiful looking
2) Trusted BMW Marque of quality, 2 year guarantee, nationwide/European support - conventional way of doing business - invoice and payment, I know what I am getting and when I am getting it
3) Pedelec with range benefits and high-quality Bosch mid-drive system with Powerpack 400 and Intuiva (sp?) computer- I favour the pedelec system, if you are not putting any effort in at all then why bother in my view for my own circumstances?
4) 10 speed Shimano Gearing and integrated lighting system
5) Weakness of the Euro enables me to get 30% (not 40% as previously stated) discount on the horrendous £2400 ($3600) purchase price, as a business I am buying inclusive of VAT so effectively I am paying £1415 per unit initial outlay.

Why I feel that pledgers are throwing their money away with the Sondors even at the price of $698 for early pledgers

1) Hashed together solution and design, single bike in existence which has been used to generate lots of revenue (to applause)
2) No warranty, no assurance of quality, no transparency or consistency/honesty. IGG raises real concerns. For me a lack of trust in the Campaign. For shipping to be a "perk" also raises concerns, I believe there is some really shady taxation issues with "perks" and these will be exposed - Sondors is selling ebikes, simple as
3) No idea how long the bike or battery will last - or when or if the "perk" will be delivered
4) Single gear, it will be a pig to ride when the battery is flat
5) Although I like the looks of the bike after a short while it does really look like a kids toy more suitable for the 10-14 age group imo.

I applaud everyone who is willing to take a punt, who acknowledges the element of risk and is excited about the Sondors project. For me the Sondors Campaign is wide-open to abuse and exploitation by the Campaign owner, the Campaign isn't professionally run at all and the latest issues with the inflated shipping cost and fact there has been no volume discount s promised/the shipping cost is not MUCH LESS as stated will just be the first of many concerns,

 

[J.R.]

When the Sondors-IGG campaign started I thought if there was a possible scam involved here that it would be the shipping. It may not be a scam but... I figured after thousands of bikes were "sold", everyone would get $5 off shipping and the backers would be outraged. But at $5 over there was just a smattering of disappointment. Now with no discount on shipping, all is well. What gives? Could this be one of the biggest April Fools hoaxes of all time?

Also what ever happened to all the donations to charities? I haven't heard anything on that for some time. And as I understand it SS/IGG have been taking their cuts as soon as money is pledged.

 

[EULITTLB]

@J.R. Do you really believe that the shipping fee is a shipping fee? I don't.

The high shipping fee is to subsidise the low headline cost of the bike which attracted so many trusting Pledgers, the battery has to be shipped separately is my understanding too, there may be a sting in the tail here as well.

Speculation can be a dangerous thing for sure, but the Sondors Campaign contains so much room for change and lack of clarity in so many areas - with no response from the Campaign Owner - that there is no option but to note concerns as this thing pans out.

There will be hundreds of complaints like so "I ordered yellow with red wheels and I have got black with blue" and they won't be attended to for weeks/months if at all - there is no support infrastructure, shipping from a Chinese factory that is it.

 

[J.R.]

@J.R. Do you really believe that the shipping fee is a shipping fee? I don't.

The high shipping fee is to subsidise the low headline cost of the bike which attracted so many trusting Pledgers, the battery has to be shipped separately is my understanding too, there may be a sting in the tail here as well.

Speculation can be a dangerous thing for sure, but the Sondors Campaign contains so much room for change and lack of clarity in so many areas - with no response from the Campaign Owner - that there is no option but to note concerns as this thing pans out.

There will be hundreds of complaints like so "I ordered yellow with red wheels and I have got black with blue" and they won't be attended to for weeks/months if at all - there is no support infrastructure, shipping from a Chinese factory that is it.

I didn't and wouldn't use the word: fee. They are funds as soon as the donators click: OK. They are funds sondorsigg2.0 can use as they see fit. Take a look at the IGG/Sondors page, few new "bike perks" funded but the money and total number of "funders" is growing by leaps and bounds. When I purchase a new stock today and purchase new shares next week, am I two stock holders? I'm just one owner no matter how many shares I own. There is some cooking of the books here, it's a concern. But this isn't a business or a bike brand, it's a co-op. At least I hope it is for the people waiting for a bike.

It would be very cool though to have a few thousand new ebikes roaming the streets! Lets wait and see what happens. Maybe we can give this whole issue a break for a couple months IF the campaign shuts down in a few days. I will be waiting! Hey @Gus put the popcorn on hold for awhile! OK?

 

[George S.]

I would feel a little better with Kickstarter than Indiegogo, a little! I've also been looking at Karmic and Karmic has more of an internet presence than SS had. An etrail to follow. So far I'm impressed with Karmic, hopefully when they are able to release the bike's specs, they will be real-world and complete. If I have any doubts I won't back it, stormagogo has taught me that. Thanks Sondors!

Hong @Hong gives good, complete, answers to the questions about the Karmic. It's essentially a hybrid frame with the motor and the battery. If he (or NTS) can make the battery frame system work, it's great. But the idea has been kicking around a while, and NTS has backed away from making bikes. I figure Hong could go with another battery pack, anyway, but the NTS is interesting.

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

These days, people who do crowdfunders are saying "everything is off the shelf". So dealing with NTS is something Karmic would want to feel was not in development.

I wouldn't want to get tied up with IGG. Some of the Kickstarter bikes have turned out OK. This is from the Karmic FAQ's on their site:

Our Kickstarter backers will get the earliest bikes at the best possible price.

They are saying KS, not crowdfund or IGG. I'm not sure how solid the CF market is right now, in the wake of Sondo. The Karmic is a nice bike, very appealing, so maybe they whip up some enthusiasm before the launch. How many people know about mid-drives. It seems like whatever you do in the US you face the fact ebikes are just an unknown product. I was talking to a salesman at the closest ebike shop to me, and he was saying you are just dealing with a blank slate with ebikes. Nothing has brought ebikes into focus with the American public. They don't really exist.

 

[wa5]

QUOTE FROM INDIEGOGO COMMENTS PAGE BY PHILIP HILLIS (not to be confused with Theodore Voltaire he he he).
Philip Hillis
6 hours ago
Funders that ordered more than 1 bike, but only got 1 email are urged to join the “Sondors Storm Owners Group” on face book. We’re making a list to give Chris Olenik to help him sort through the funders with email issues.
Once you join the group, add your name to the pinned post at the top of our page. (END QUOTE)

It seems the only way to access Storm management is to join a page run by fanboi keyboard dictators, if the new members make the mistake of bad mouthing the bike or the brand.. or worse still, Philips God, Sondors. there goes their only chance of addressing what ever issue they may have.. because Philip and other Sondors Owners Group bully boys will ban them, for having even the slightest doubt..

 

[EULITTLB]

QUOTE FROM INDIEGOGO COMMENTS PAGE BY PHILIP HILLIS (not to be confused with Theodore Voltaire he he he).
Philip Hillis
6 hours ago
Funders that ordered more than 1 bike, but only got 1 email are urged to join the “Sondors Storm Owners Group” on face book. We’re making a list to give Chris Olenik to help him sort through the funders with email issues.
Once you join the group, add your name to the pinned post at the top of our page. (END QUOTE)

It seems the only way to access Storm management is to join a page run by fanboi keyboard dictators, if the new members make the mistake of bad mouthing the bike or the brand.. or worse still, Philips God, Sondors. there goes their only chance of addressing what ever issue they may have.. because Philip and other Sondors Owners Group bully boys will ban them, for having even the slightest doubt..

Yep 100% agree, a $5-6 million campaign run by an incommunicado Campaign Owner and volunteers with nothing to do with Sondors whatsoever dealing with email issues through a Facebook Page they control - Philip Hillis is like the back end of a pantomime horse, with his head so far up Sondors backside it is untrue - this all ain't gonna end well!

 

[wa5]

I wonder if Philip or Bruce could be a part of any up coming lawsuit by including themselves in the marketing and management side of the business as they have?

 

[EULITTLB]

I didn't want to bore anyone further today, I was looking into the performance of the Bosch 400W 11ah Powerpack which is alone £400 or $600 at the very least without BMS - Bruce and Philip are no doubt experienced people, Sondors, with a heavy weight of a bike, single gear and big fat tyres claims better performance, less charge time, from an 8.8AH battery weighing twice as much with a combined BMS. The SS ebike is claimed to outperform the 10 speed BMW Cruise ebike with latest generation Bosch centre /mid drive at 1/7th of the cost exc shipping. What has gotten into people?

 

[wa5]

I'd agree that Philip should know better, he does seem to have quite a bit of knowledge when it comes to Ebikes, The only explanation that fits, is that he is purposely going along with the deception (or exaggeration if you will) by Storm / IGG / 2.0.. and the only reason I can logically come up with, is that he is going against all that he knows to be true, because he is getting some kind of personal advantage from it. I hesitate to mention it, but I can think of know other reason that somebody who was conversant with the facts could go along with Sondors false claims.. and actually now appear to be working as part of the sales / service team...

?Funny that he claimed to have no connection with Sondors or IGG / 2.0 but now seems to be running a defacto service desk for them...

Would that not be the absolute definition of "Shill"... Philip and Storms Travelling medicine show