The Sondors Bike is Unravelling a Bit
- Thread starter George S.
- Start date
Scotland I agree with you but what can anyone do? Nothing. When the bike range is 10-15 miles at best or the bike develops a fault, there is no recourse
J.R.
Well-Known Member
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- Piedmont Highlands
Can it ever be excess? All you need do is charge however much for "administrative costs" for arranging shipping. It's way too easy to hide most "costs, price of doing business". I guess the price of crowdfunding too!
Scotland's point was that Sondors has guaranteed that the cost will be less and will go down as volume of sales increases. They actually stated on the website shipping will be MUCH LESS but then removed it! I don't believe there will be any refunds, any demo days, and that the performance figures on the igg website are exageratted, false and misleading - nothing is ready to ship and yet funders have been called upon to pay he shipping costs! It wouldn't surprise me if some pledgers see some bikes in July or August, just a hunch
George S.
Well-Known Member
Gin signed on for the IGG Wave campaign, has been completely positive in the comments. Bruce Choate is OK. The chemistry was rotten over there. Hillis is Hillis, lots of energy and a little loose of mouth.
The Wave doesn't have to prove much, so I just hope it works out. We'll see if Storm and IGG and A2.0 have any issues delivering a bike. The RadRover seems really solid. The mood has shifted. These last two campaigns are Love-fests, RR and Wave.
The Wave doesn't have to prove much, so I just hope it works out. We'll see if Storm and IGG and A2.0 have any issues delivering a bike. The RadRover seems really solid. The mood has shifted. These last two campaigns are Love-fests, RR and Wave.
wa5
Well-Known Member
part of Sondors banner on IGG..
Most affordable eBike EVER!
AND part of Wave E bike banner on (you guessed it) IGG
Most Affordable Electric Bike EVER!
I can understand another bike manufacturer copying such claims, but these are both IGG and probably both have Chris Olineks hand up their jumper.. maybe he just uses the same template on each bike they are hocking this week?
Most affordable eBike EVER!
AND part of Wave E bike banner on (you guessed it) IGG
Most Affordable Electric Bike EVER!
I can understand another bike manufacturer copying such claims, but these are both IGG and probably both have Chris Olineks hand up their jumper.. maybe he just uses the same template on each bike they are hocking this week?
Credible Hulk
Active Member
Re the liability: I took screenshots of the original wording for the shipping costs, along with the IGG disclaimers, and showed them to a lawyer who specializes in class actions and civil litigation. IGG/Sondors were stupid to use the word "guarantee". That's what makes them liable in court if they don't either issue the guaranteed refunds, or release a detailed breakdown of their shipping costs to prove that the fees charged are justified.
BTW out of curiosity I was looking at ebikes very similar to the Sondors, on Alibaba. Shipping cost for one of their ebikes from Taiwan to Canada? Zero.
Also, depending on consumer laws in your jurisdiction, if it turns out their advertised specs for this ebike were grossly overstated, they can be held liable for that as well. You could call it false advertising, or fraudulent misrepresentation, or bait and switch. If it can be proven in court that the Sondors group knew in advance that the final product would be nowhere near what they advertised, it's fraud. If the product turns out to be dangerous junk and someone gets hurt? They'd be liable for that as well.
Re delivery timeframe - due to the nature of the IGG agreement, we'd have no recourse if delivery is later than promised. No product at all? Due to the high number of backers it would be extremely difficult for Sondors and IGG to avoid being sued, despite their disclaimers. Terms in disclaimers are superseded by existing laws. In the end it would be a judge deciding whether the "backer" arrangement is actually a retail transaction, because customers handed over their money under the expectation of receiving a product in return. IGG would have its wings seriously clipped by the regulators after such a debacle, so it would definitely be in their best interest to make sure Sondors backers/customers get what they were promised.
wa5
Well-Known Member
Interesting points as far as group actions and being legally liable are concerned, BUT, it must be more difficult than that. it seems, the happy team as IGG and 2.0 have left one or two train wrecks in their wake already, and there doesn't appear to have been any legal action so far (at least that I've heard mentioned). Why is that so?
Are people who take part in c/f projects less likely to sue? If you look at some of the supporters comments here and on the IGG site, they truly believe they are part of something huge, that Storm is bringing in these bikes to try and make the hobby "affordable for the people" and that by taking part, they are part of some quantum leap forward that will "change the way electric bikes are sold forever"... when in fact they are part of a group buy of the cheapest, nastiest Chinese crap, that is aiming to make a very tidy profit for the organizer ( a man convicted of fraud) and his mates. in short, he's trying to make a lot of money.
The way people like Hillis and Choate appear to see Sondors is almost God Like. its cultish, I wasn't around in the thirties, but would think the way that Germans were captivated by Hitler wouldn't have been much different.
its pretty obvious when you look at Storm with the bike during interviews that he doesn't have a clue, he's not "into" e biking, he's not doing this for the love, he's doing it for the money.. after this is over, (assuming he delivers anything) his bike will go on the shelf beside all the other knick knacks like the un opened r/c car in the apsergers story.
Maybe the "wanting to be part of something bigger" is what draws people to campaigns such as this, and allows them to look past the logical part of their brain which is screaming "WAIT A MINUTE, SOMETHING DOESNT LOOK RIGHT HERE" to the (putting it kindly) "more optimistic" part, where dreams can come true, where they can see around the blatantly obvious...
Just to be clear, I don't think the above covers ALL the funders, some thought they were buying, and some just took a chance..
Are people who take part in c/f projects less likely to sue? If you look at some of the supporters comments here and on the IGG site, they truly believe they are part of something huge, that Storm is bringing in these bikes to try and make the hobby "affordable for the people" and that by taking part, they are part of some quantum leap forward that will "change the way electric bikes are sold forever"... when in fact they are part of a group buy of the cheapest, nastiest Chinese crap, that is aiming to make a very tidy profit for the organizer ( a man convicted of fraud) and his mates. in short, he's trying to make a lot of money.
The way people like Hillis and Choate appear to see Sondors is almost God Like. its cultish, I wasn't around in the thirties, but would think the way that Germans were captivated by Hitler wouldn't have been much different.
its pretty obvious when you look at Storm with the bike during interviews that he doesn't have a clue, he's not "into" e biking, he's not doing this for the love, he's doing it for the money.. after this is over, (assuming he delivers anything) his bike will go on the shelf beside all the other knick knacks like the un opened r/c car in the apsergers story.
Maybe the "wanting to be part of something bigger" is what draws people to campaigns such as this, and allows them to look past the logical part of their brain which is screaming "WAIT A MINUTE, SOMETHING DOESNT LOOK RIGHT HERE" to the (putting it kindly) "more optimistic" part, where dreams can come true, where they can see around the blatantly obvious...
Just to be clear, I don't think the above covers ALL the funders, some thought they were buying, and some just took a chance..
I can spout the legal claptrap if I want but let's face it he has got funders money and few people have the appetite for taking part in a group action. Articles and updates have been timed to I still confidence in people who are trusting and do not look beyond the headlines , some guy just posted on my fan page that it is all bs, the website is phoney, the email addy doesn't work Eric and he is notifying his card company. Part of this campaign is quite clever given that no statement can be attributed to anyone really, who is posting them? Sondors said there would be a 30 day warranty, it is his frigging campaign and he doesn't know wtf is going on!
Lol Bruce says I am just repeating what others have said but believe me it pretty much from my research and discourse on forums - he claims that Sondors was misquoted in the Slashgear article but then goes quiet when Chris Davies what he was specifically told! Ok Bruce, let's move onto something else..... We you know nothing about ebikes! What has that got to do with a highly suspect Camapign, false claims and exaggerations that you are blindly supporting then Bruce?
George S.
Well-Known Member
I guess you could turn your attention to the two ongoing IGG ebikes. The Wave is a bike that Bruce says is ugly, that it is a lame Chinese design that has been kicking around for a while. There's something in the comments to the Wave that suggests Court might review it.
I wonder about an ebike that goes 28mph with no pedaling. In the video they have on their IGG page, they whip along for 28 miles, sort of plowing through everything in their way. I don't know if this is the future of ebikes, $500 scooters to take down the local bike path at high speeds?
On the other hand, the RadRover seems very well executed. If you wanted a fat bike, this was worth waiting for. Plus they have a good battery. Nothing really flashy, just solid.
@EULITTLB: Hope you enjoy the Beemers! Heck of a bike. Not sure about those speed limits over there. We are getting to be too fast, but maybe you guys are too slow.
Comments on Wave IGG page. Aaron B is running the campaign.
Aaron B
11 hours ago
@Connor Bush- Stay tuned for updates on ElectricBikeReview.com as we might have something in the works next week.
I wonder about an ebike that goes 28mph with no pedaling. In the video they have on their IGG page, they whip along for 28 miles, sort of plowing through everything in their way. I don't know if this is the future of ebikes, $500 scooters to take down the local bike path at high speeds?
On the other hand, the RadRover seems very well executed. If you wanted a fat bike, this was worth waiting for. Plus they have a good battery. Nothing really flashy, just solid.
@EULITTLB: Hope you enjoy the Beemers! Heck of a bike. Not sure about those speed limits over there. We are getting to be too fast, but maybe you guys are too slow.
Comments on Wave IGG page. Aaron B is running the campaign.
Aaron B
11 hours ago
@Connor Bush- Stay tuned for updates on ElectricBikeReview.com as we might have something in the works next week.
Credible Hulk
Active Member
Re "why don't people sue?" A few reasons:
- they get bamboozled by disclaimers. They think a disclaimer that denies liability is legal. They don't realize that any monkey with a keyboard can write an intimidating-looking pile of legal-sounding crap. They think that once they sign something, it's carved in granite. They don't know that there's a big difference between a disclaimer and their rights under the law.
- they're intimidated by the legal process, think they can't afford to sue and it's not worth the trouble (that's what class actions are for - to eliminate the affordability issue)
- they assume they're the only one being ripped off and that nobody will take their concerns seriously
- they're unfamiliar with the consumer laws in their jurisdiction to know what their rights are
Case in point: This past week a huge Canadian telecom was ordered to stop misusing its customers' confidential data to generate revenue for itself, and is being sued in a class action for $750 million. This was due to a few customers complaining to our federal government. The rest were either unaware or assumed they had no recourse because of disclaimers they were forced to sign. As a result, this telco got away with stealing and misusing customer data for years. It never hurts to inform yourself about consumer and privacy laws in your jurisdiction if you're concerned about a company you're doing business with.
Re suing Sondors: I think it's too early for anyone to start suing them yet. That will change if, months after the fact, no products materialize and Sondors doesn't reply to customer inquiries. Or, if the item that arrives is so shoddy that it is unusable or presents a safety hazard.
- they get bamboozled by disclaimers. They think a disclaimer that denies liability is legal. They don't realize that any monkey with a keyboard can write an intimidating-looking pile of legal-sounding crap. They think that once they sign something, it's carved in granite. They don't know that there's a big difference between a disclaimer and their rights under the law.
- they're intimidated by the legal process, think they can't afford to sue and it's not worth the trouble (that's what class actions are for - to eliminate the affordability issue)
- they assume they're the only one being ripped off and that nobody will take their concerns seriously
- they're unfamiliar with the consumer laws in their jurisdiction to know what their rights are
Case in point: This past week a huge Canadian telecom was ordered to stop misusing its customers' confidential data to generate revenue for itself, and is being sued in a class action for $750 million. This was due to a few customers complaining to our federal government. The rest were either unaware or assumed they had no recourse because of disclaimers they were forced to sign. As a result, this telco got away with stealing and misusing customer data for years. It never hurts to inform yourself about consumer and privacy laws in your jurisdiction if you're concerned about a company you're doing business with.
Re suing Sondors: I think it's too early for anyone to start suing them yet. That will change if, months after the fact, no products materialize and Sondors doesn't reply to customer inquiries. Or, if the item that arrives is so shoddy that it is unusable or presents a safety hazard.
Credible Hulk
Active Member
People get ripped off by auto mechanics all the time, that doesn't mean they must be car experts themselves to know they've been screwed.
Assuming people like Bruce aren't being paid to shake pompoms for the Sondors campaign, why else would they continue to support it unconditionally? They don't even try to address the discrepancies and well-founded concerns. I used to be one of those cheerleaders when I first gave the campaign my money. I was really excited at the prospect of getting a major (for me) item at a discounted price. Then the BS kept piling up, and I could no longer deny the smell when it came up to my nose. I guess my sense of smell is different from others' - for better or worse.
J.R.
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- USA
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- Piedmont Highlands
I've seen comments on crowd-funding campaigns including this one that some backers think they are protected by the credit card company. Aside from the whole argument this is/is not a purchase, don't most credit card companies require you to submit a claim in writing within 60 days +/- from the date of a fraudulent charge? Has this changed? I could be assuming wrong, I seldom use credit cards and it's been awhile since I've read an agreement.
J.R.
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- USA
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- Piedmont Highlands
I read a fair amount of articles about ebikes every month and lately you can't hide from all the articles around SS ebike. Okay that's fine, there are some well written articles from both backers and detractors of the Sondors. This week I came across this article on Electricbike.com, an admitted detractor. It's fairly well done.
Sonders Electric Fat Bike Honestly Evaluated, Electricbike.com
Sonders Electric Fat Bike Honestly Evaluated, Electricbike.com
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