@J.R. with respect, you want to see some of the stuff that has been dished out in my direction on the IGG forum from Choate and Hillis, Gin and Melton; Choate wouldn't dare act like he has been doing on this forum - I am not convinced this is the end of the Sondors bike either, however the updates were simulating that manufacturing/assembly was going ahead, it was going through the motions only imo and I fully expected a sting in the tail like this to complicate and delay matters. Through the Court proceedings (if this is not settled before that time) we will get the witness all the grubby figures and stats between the parties, my sympathies lie with the funders though.
The Sondors Bike is Unravelling a Bit
- Thread starter George S.
- Start date
J.R.
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Piedmont Highlands
I've seen some, it's ugly. Many are out and out cruel to you in particular! I'm very glad EBR has been spared that...
JRA
Well-Known Member
Agency 2.0 speaks:
http://www.crowdfundinsider.com/201...largest-indiegogo-crowdfunding-campaign-ever/
"At this time we have not been paid for our services per contract relating to the Sondors’ eBike campaign and are now forced to spend even more money on legal. Our fees owed are well past due and should have no bearing on the delivery of the eBikes. The fees were agreed in writing prior to the launch of the campaign. Sondors refuses to even acknowledge the money is owed to Agency 2.0 for its services in raising $5.28M."
Ivar's answer was to post some picture from last week of the battery case mold being made. The funny thing is that injection molded plastic is his main manufacturing genius background from his Happy Meal days and that process seems to be moving at a snails pace. No word on the bikes themselves which he knows little about.
Meanwhile the In Demand feature continues to pull in money every day.
http://www.crowdfundinsider.com/201...largest-indiegogo-crowdfunding-campaign-ever/
"At this time we have not been paid for our services per contract relating to the Sondors’ eBike campaign and are now forced to spend even more money on legal. Our fees owed are well past due and should have no bearing on the delivery of the eBikes. The fees were agreed in writing prior to the launch of the campaign. Sondors refuses to even acknowledge the money is owed to Agency 2.0 for its services in raising $5.28M."
Ivar's answer was to post some picture from last week of the battery case mold being made. The funny thing is that injection molded plastic is his main manufacturing genius background from his Happy Meal days and that process seems to be moving at a snails pace. No word on the bikes themselves which he knows little about.
Meanwhile the In Demand feature continues to pull in money every day.
pxpaulx
Well-Known Member
Realistically the in-demand is only being left as a means for current buyers to pay their shipping. Why they haven't setup their own POS or simply setup invoices through paypal for the remainder is beyond me - my guess is that it is part of their IGG contract in some form. I counted 4 bikes sold in the last 7 days, so they aren't moving much new inventory at $649.
Credible Hulk
Active Member
Nothing like staying open, even though they have no inventory, hoping to score a few last orders before customers realize there's nothing to buy. I wonder if the "In demand" retail sales terms are substantially similar to the terms offered to "backers"? If so, that might be grounds for "backers" to recoup their losses if this project falls on its face. They'd have to line up behind Agency 2.0 and probably some Chinese suppliers as well.
JRA
Well-Known Member
"Realistically the in-demand is only being left as a means for current buyers to pay their shipping"
If that was the case then why don't they x out all the other perks? Probably because they still sold 4 bikes ($2600+shipping) in the last seven days. It seems like IGG at this point has unclean hands also by enabling this farce to continue.
If that was the case then why don't they x out all the other perks? Probably because they still sold 4 bikes ($2600+shipping) in the last seven days. It seems like IGG at this point has unclean hands also by enabling this farce to continue.
George S.
Well-Known Member
It's impossible. It's even more bizarre today than yesterday. I just don't understand how A2.0 would not have been getting payments over the course of the campaign. But that is their story. So now what do they do, with very limited leverage? Either Storm will offer, what, 40 cents on the dollar? Cash money? Take it or leave it? Or spend years in court?
Who even knows what Sondors position is? Maybe he thinks the bill is padded, or maybe he doesn't like what A2.0 did. A2.0 seems to be saying Sondors gave them total freedom to spend what they wanted., that (says Olenik) meant" in general having all Agency 2.0 staff engaged in the campaign for months". How, when A2.0 never fixed the most basic problems with the campaign. The basic mis-stated stuff like weights and battery capacities, performance descriptions, which dragged on forever. A2.0 never determined if the name "Storm" might be in use by another ebike. That's beyond negligence. So they lost their most valuable asset. What work were they doing? Running web ads? Conning websites to print puff pieces about a vapo-bike? And they weren't being paid along the way? The way A2.0 sells their services, and the ties to IGG, it encourages people who will game the few rules that exist. Someone, apparently, has gamed them.
And IGG? They are selling bikes and taking orders, right now, but A2.0 is the only name on the campaign. The shipping money is coming in. Where is that money going? If it's going to A2.0, are they going to keep it, apply it to the Sondo bill? If so, what are you buying? Anything? Can they even supply bikes from Sondors, or can they reasonably believe Sondors will provide bikes to them anything they sell at this point? Does IGG understand how messed up this is, or are they thinking "Every bike is $25 to IGG. Let it roll".
What is IGG going to do if Sondors starts to offer excuses on the bikes? Do they have any means to move him along? The guy with all the money is 'off line', more or less. I assume he has bought a lot of parts, but the factory tours and all that were pure theater.
You'd think there would be some sort of ongoing audit and expense totals, fulfillment benchmarks. You would think Storm would understand the need to reassure his backers, at this point. He could post some copies of orders for all the materials, deals which must have been made by now.
Who even knows what Sondors position is? Maybe he thinks the bill is padded, or maybe he doesn't like what A2.0 did. A2.0 seems to be saying Sondors gave them total freedom to spend what they wanted., that (says Olenik) meant" in general having all Agency 2.0 staff engaged in the campaign for months". How, when A2.0 never fixed the most basic problems with the campaign. The basic mis-stated stuff like weights and battery capacities, performance descriptions, which dragged on forever. A2.0 never determined if the name "Storm" might be in use by another ebike. That's beyond negligence. So they lost their most valuable asset. What work were they doing? Running web ads? Conning websites to print puff pieces about a vapo-bike? And they weren't being paid along the way? The way A2.0 sells their services, and the ties to IGG, it encourages people who will game the few rules that exist. Someone, apparently, has gamed them.
And IGG? They are selling bikes and taking orders, right now, but A2.0 is the only name on the campaign. The shipping money is coming in. Where is that money going? If it's going to A2.0, are they going to keep it, apply it to the Sondo bill? If so, what are you buying? Anything? Can they even supply bikes from Sondors, or can they reasonably believe Sondors will provide bikes to them anything they sell at this point? Does IGG understand how messed up this is, or are they thinking "Every bike is $25 to IGG. Let it roll".
What is IGG going to do if Sondors starts to offer excuses on the bikes? Do they have any means to move him along? The guy with all the money is 'off line', more or less. I assume he has bought a lot of parts, but the factory tours and all that were pure theater.
You'd think there would be some sort of ongoing audit and expense totals, fulfillment benchmarks. You would think Storm would understand the need to reassure his backers, at this point. He could post some copies of orders for all the materials, deals which must have been made by now.
Credible Hulk
Active Member
My thought on this is that there will be a HUGE reckoning at IGG, and other crowdfunding sites. IGG is breaking numerous consumer laws by pretending that taking customers' money and then calling them "backers" exempts them from retail and consumer laws. What IGG is really doing is marketplace retailing, just like Amazon, ebay or Aliexpress. They should be subject to the same rules, and there should be strict limits set on whose products they can market, and when the customer's money changes hands (how about "not until the vendor can prove they have the product as advertised, ready to ship"). This premeditated fraud of thousands of customers is going to hit the media bigtime, and then there will be public outrage and regulatory fallout.
I suspect that when they all realized what a windfall they had scored, IGG, Ivars and 2.0 all decided they wanted a bigger cut. "Absolute wealth corrupts absolutely". Perhaps if Ivars et al had been denied access to all funds except what's needed to manufacture and deliver the product, we wouldn't be seeing this avaricious infighting. Instead, a huge pile of our money is being squandered on lawyers by greedy vultures, as if it were a rotting carcass. Nothing will be left for customers but the bones, unless we hire lawyers ourselves and join in the fray.
I suspect that when they all realized what a windfall they had scored, IGG, Ivars and 2.0 all decided they wanted a bigger cut. "Absolute wealth corrupts absolutely". Perhaps if Ivars et al had been denied access to all funds except what's needed to manufacture and deliver the product, we wouldn't be seeing this avaricious infighting. Instead, a huge pile of our money is being squandered on lawyers by greedy vultures, as if it were a rotting carcass. Nothing will be left for customers but the bones, unless we hire lawyers ourselves and join in the fray.
@George S. You have upset me! I have a sneaking suspicion that some of my posts about this fraud of a Campaign and the lies/inconsistencies perpetuated by Agency 2.0 might be used by Sondors as evidence of how incompetent his own Campaign is/was!!!!!!!! Chris Olenik was in with the deceit also, claiming that he was aware I was paid by Prodeco to damage the Campaign. They are a sneaky bunch of liars the whole lot of them, hope it all blows up in both of their respective faces and everyone gets their money back....... to invest in the radrover campaign...... or buy some of my BMW Cruise ebikes lol
George S.
Well-Known Member
@EULITTLB -- I guess the irony of the Prodeco situation is fairly apparent now. Phil kept hitting Prodeco over the head (the 'pants' references), but really, that was 100% on Agency 2.0 for not clearing the trademark. I honestly think Sondors could sue A2.0 for letting the 'Storm' name be used, when they never should have touched it. They could have goofed with 'Storm' enough to make it legal, or not infringe. Now I guess they could call it the Sh** Storm!
Nothing is ever simple. Enjoy the Beemers. I ride every day, lately, think good thoughts about ebikes.
Nothing is ever simple. Enjoy the Beemers. I ride every day, lately, think good thoughts about ebikes.
J.R.
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Piedmont Highlands
This has little to do with nothing, but I've been curious about something since the Storm/Prodeco controversy. When did Sondors adopt the Storm moniker? In the ramp up for this campaign? Or has he used it for a long time? Just curious...
wa5
Well-Known Member
@EULITTLB -- I guess the irony of the Prodeco situation is fairly apparent now, that was 100% on Agency 2.0 for not clearing the trademark. I honestly think Sondors could sue A2.0 for letting the 'Storm' name be used, when they never should have touched it. They could have goofed with 'Storm' enough to make it legal, or not infringe. Now I guess they could call it the Sh** Storm!
.
I'd dis-agree, 2.0 are a PR mob, they aren't trademarking or company lawyers, I don't see that checking any trademarks was part of their job. though, it would have saved a lot of angst had they checked.
JR, I'd guess Ivars morphed into Storm shortly after his 2011 court loss. but just a guess
George S.
Well-Known Member
There was a pre-campaign in late January, where they weren't offering the bike. The bike they had was a high power bike out of Florida, with no pedals. The Storm name appeared from the outset, as I recall.
Agency has said they worked on the campaign for 7 months prior to the launch. It's inconceivable that they would not have run across the Prodeco product in those 7 months, if they were really researching ebikes. Nothing Chris says makes any sense. It's the job of an ad agency to create a brand, and if you don't check to see if you are using someone else's brand, you are making it very difficult to define your brand. Prodeco said they got calls on the "Storm" because of the Sondors campaign, but they wanted the beach bike. There are practical reasons to choose a brand you can completely define and defend.
Agency has said they worked on the campaign for 7 months prior to the launch. It's inconceivable that they would not have run across the Prodeco product in those 7 months, if they were really researching ebikes. Nothing Chris says makes any sense. It's the job of an ad agency to create a brand, and if you don't check to see if you are using someone else's brand, you are making it very difficult to define your brand. Prodeco said they got calls on the "Storm" because of the Sondors campaign, but they wanted the beach bike. There are practical reasons to choose a brand you can completely define and defend.
I am going to delete all my posts now and my FB page in case Sondors refers to them to show how shoddy the whole campaign is lol! Can't blame agency 2.0 for the name storm IMHO, campaign was effective just full of bs -when are the next demo days? Where is @Bruce Choate ?
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