The long Biktrix road, my personal battery is dying.

[prestoOne]

Programming question and CS question here and I am hoping Biktrix's Roshan can help out here because communications with customer service broke down immediately and 4 days and exchanges later they are still no closer to addressing the issue. They turned a feel good purchase into a very bad experience. I am going to air some ugliness here, I apologize in advance.

Juggernaught Hub Duo is what I purchased and received; very comfortable and easy to put together. I did the whole presales phone call thing and bought on that, using a bit of faith and a friends recommendation.

1st item: The panniers are not made for this bike, customer service said they are. No way the clips fit on the rack and so they have to sit on the frame, clang and move around.

2nd item: I stumble across the definition of ebike in Canada (in just about every province including Biktrix's home) 32Km/hr and 500watts for the motor. It is a 750W motor!
My friend said his motor was limited when he got it because they would not ship it without the locks (but he unlocked it.)

Basically a 750 watt motor isn't good for anything legal, can't even license it as a moped because there is no manufacturing sticker. Insurance won't cover it and police will ticket it. All I need to to is be unlucky and be in an accident and the fines for this vehicle if illegal even if no one gets hurt are over $10K; it is no jokey.

No problem I will contact Bitrix Customer Support and they will help with the solution to my anxiety.
Instead what I got where CS reps ignoring the 500w limit and talking about other stuff:
-everyone is doing it, they are happy
-referring to the U.S. market (They know me and their head office is in Canada)
-


Some quotes from the team:
"We all drive cars that have way more speed limit that we in reality ever use, correct, but the cop doesn't argue that if the car has the capacity to reach 160kmph, we can't drive it at 50kmph unless their records prove the opposite."

"Street Legal wattage varies across North America, and as such we have made it so our bikes can be limited and changed to suit the varying needs and regulations of our riders and their locations. When they leave here, they are set to 32km/h." - again dodging wattage cap and they know where they work and I live: Saskatchewan and Canada.

"So while your motor is a 750w motor, by limiting the speed to 32km per hour you limit the nominal output of the motor. Short of putting the class sticker on your bike, there is no way to prove this to law enforcement should they pull you over, but on the other hand, they also don't (to our knowledge) have a way to check the wattage aside from checking for class sticker" -Dancing. All they have to do is look on the website or say it exceeds 500W and then have to go to court and the onus is on me to prove otherwise.

"In our nearly 8 years of selling e-bikes, we have yet to hear of/from any of our customers who have had any issues with law enforcement while out riding. As long as you are riding respectfully and following road/trail rules, most cops have bigger fish to fry." -not if there is an accident, a cop simply wants to mete their personal justice or a politician tells the cops to clean things up.

I gave them 4 days and 4 emails and not once have they been straight with me on wattage and legality. It was upsetting.
All they had to say was something like: We understand your concern, let me send out some letter head signed by X (Roshan?) stating that you do indeed own an ebike as defined by the powers that be in Ontario and Saskatchewan and it was shipped from our manufacturing center with a motor that does not exceed the 500W limit in your province.

I know the ebike laws are messed up and wattage is a poor metric but it is the anvil of the law hanging over our heads and a if it comes down to it a judge needs a complelling and easy reason to agree that Juggernaut owners do indeed own an ebike.
Here my bike sits in my living room all week and on Canada day.
Maybe it doesn't do well at 500W, I don't know; presales qualifying is so important.

The programming question: how is this model programmed for Canada? I was told this motor is from Bafang and they have a one and done programming license.

Roshan, this is what is going on at your company, I have escalated twice already. What do I do here?

 

[prestoOne]

About 15 minutes after writing posting this thread, after closing time in Saskatoon I received a professional response from someone new to me.
So much more professional and included relevant information and lacking anything resembling the quotes posted above.

Just waiting on the documentation for my bike to make it easy to pass along to law enforcement or insurance if something comes up, for my permanent records and this experience will wrap up on a good note sometime after Canada Day, I will take it out for a spin and feel good about it

If all goes well (I don't see why it won't) I will post back here with a smile.

 

[ElevenAD]

You need to do more research before you purchase an E-Bike unless you just have money to burn, that said it looks like Biktrix is taking care of you so all should be good.

 

[prestoOne]

The Biktrix name and company have value and purpose, that is a huge portion of their customer's purchases.

I don't understand why it is OK for you to have faith they will send the documentation and not OK for me to have faith in Biktrix, our consumer laws here in Canada.

I don't understand why would you blame me for having faith.
If I had no faith I wouldn't have made any purchase.

 

[ruffruff]

Biktrix is just like any other online bike purchase.
1. They will sell you what you order, the legality and research is on you. I bowhunt, half the items on the shelf at WalMart are illegal in my state. It's on me to know that.
2. Once the purchase is made you are at the mercy of email, and their customer support in whatever form THEY choose. You have no option to take it to another store for warranty coverage, you don't have any way to have a face-to-face conversation, you are at THEIR mercy. Sometimes it goes well, sometimes it does not.

I wish there was sticky about this but I get the temptation to buy online and save a few bucks. I did it myself. I'm comfortable with DIY and wrenching and bike repair.
But the problems comes when you need parts under warranty. It's a least a week of emails IF they are willing to help diagnose the problem. Then there is a week of shipping etc. and hopefully they sent the right part. These deals can go sideways real quick with online bike sales.

I learned my lesson and will no longer buy from online stores. Summers are short here and to have a bike shop in your back pocket for service is priceless.

So in summary, these online bike sales are basically this:
You save upfront but pay on the backside.

 

[Djangodog]

Programming question and CS question here and I am hoping Biktrix's Roshan can help out here because communications with customer service broke down immediately and 4 days and exchanges later they are still no closer to addressing the issue. They turned a feel good purchase into a very bad experience. I am going to air some ugliness here, I apologize in advance.

Juggernaught Hub Duo is what I purchased and received; very comfortable and easy to put together. I did the whole presales phone call thing and bought on that, using a bit of faith and a friends recommendation.

1st item: The panniers are not made for this bike, customer service said they are. No way the clips fit on the rack and so they have to sit on the frame, clang and move around.

2nd item: I stumble across the definition of ebike in Canada (in just about every province including Biktrix's home) 32Km/hr and 500watts for the motor. It is a 750W motor!
My friend said his motor was limited when he got it because they would not ship it without the locks (but he unlocked it.)

Basically a 750 watt motor isn't good for anything legal, can't even license it as a moped because there is no manufacturing sticker. Insurance won't cover it and police will ticket it. All I need to to is be unlucky and be in an accident and the fines for this vehicle if illegal even if no one gets hurt are over $10K; it is no jokey.

No problem I will contact Bitrix Customer Support and they will help with the solution to my anxiety.
Instead what I got where CS reps ignoring the 500w limit and talking about other stuff:
-everyone is doing it, they are happy
-referring to the U.S. market (They know me and their head office is in Canada)
-


Some quotes from the team:
"We all drive cars that have way more speed limit that we in reality ever use, correct, but the cop doesn't argue that if the car has the capacity to reach 160kmph, we can't drive it at 50kmph unless their records prove the opposite."

"Street Legal wattage varies across North America, and as such we have made it so our bikes can be limited and changed to suit the varying needs and regulations of our riders and their locations. When they leave here, they are set to 32km/h." - again dodging wattage cap and they know where they work and I live: Saskatchewan and Canada.

"So while your motor is a 750w motor, by limiting the speed to 32km per hour you limit the nominal output of the motor. Short of putting the class sticker on your bike, there is no way to prove this to law enforcement should they pull you over, but on the other hand, they also don't (to our knowledge) have a way to check the wattage aside from checking for class sticker" -Dancing. All they have to do is look on the website or say it exceeds 500W and then have to go to court and the onus is on me to prove otherwise.

"In our nearly 8 years of selling e-bikes, we have yet to hear of/from any of our customers who have had any issues with law enforcement while out riding. As long as you are riding respectfully and following road/trail rules, most cops have bigger fish to fry." -not if there is an accident, a cop simply wants to mete their personal justice or a politician tells the cops to clean things up.

I gave them 4 days and 4 emails and not once have they been straight with me on wattage and legality. It was upsetting.
All they had to say was something like: We understand your concern, let me send out some letter head signed by X (Roshan?) stating that you do indeed own an ebike as defined by the powers that be in Ontario and Saskatchewan and it was shipped from our manufacturing center with a motor that does not exceed the 500W limit in your province.

I know the ebike laws are messed up and wattage is a poor metric but it is the anvil of the law hanging over our heads and a if it comes down to it a judge needs a complelling and easy reason to agree that Juggernaut owners do indeed own an ebike.
Here my bike sits in my living room all week and on Canada day.
Maybe it doesn't do well at 500W, I don't know; presales qualifying is so important.

The programming question: how is this model programmed for Canada? I was told this motor is from Bafang and they have a one and done programming license.

Roshan, this is what is going on at your company, I have escalated twice already. What do I do here?

There was no ugliness to apologize in advance for. You shouldn’t have your finances put at risk and a company is obliged to act lawfully and not downplay the possible consequences.

 

[tomjasz]

Programming question and CS question here and I am hoping Biktrix's Roshan can help out here because communications with customer service broke down immediately and 4 days and exchanges later they are still no closer to addressing the issue. They turned a feel good purchase into a very bad experience. I am going to air some ugliness here, I apologize in advance.

Juggernaught Hub Duo is what I purchased and received; very comfortable and easy to put together. I did the whole presales phone call thing and bought on that, using a bit of faith and a friends recommendation.

1st item: The panniers are not made for this bike, customer service said they are. No way the clips fit on the rack and so they have to sit on the frame, clang and move around.

2nd item: I stumble across the definition of ebike in Canada (in just about every province including Biktrix's home) 32Km/hr and 500watts for the motor. It is a 750W motor!
My friend said his motor was limited when he got it because they would not ship it without the locks (but he unlocked it.)

Basically a 750 watt motor isn't good for anything legal, can't even license it as a moped because there is no manufacturing sticker. Insurance won't cover it and police will ticket it. All I need to to is be unlucky and be in an accident and the fines for this vehicle if illegal even if no one gets hurt are over $10K; it is no jokey.

No problem I will contact Bitrix Customer Support and they will help with the solution to my anxiety.
Instead what I got where CS reps ignoring the 500w limit and talking about other stuff:
-everyone is doing it, they are happy
-referring to the U.S. market (They know me and their head office is in Canada)
-


Some quotes from the team:
"We all drive cars that have way more speed limit that we in reality ever use, correct, but the cop doesn't argue that if the car has the capacity to reach 160kmph, we can't drive it at 50kmph unless their records prove the opposite."

"Street Legal wattage varies across North America, and as such we have made it so our bikes can be limited and changed to suit the varying needs and regulations of our riders and their locations. When they leave here, they are set to 32km/h." - again dodging wattage cap and they know where they work and I live: Saskatchewan and Canada.

"So while your motor is a 750w motor, by limiting the speed to 32km per hour you limit the nominal output of the motor. Short of putting the class sticker on your bike, there is no way to prove this to law enforcement should they pull you over, but on the other hand, they also don't (to our knowledge) have a way to check the wattage aside from checking for class sticker" -Dancing. All they have to do is look on the website or say it exceeds 500W and then have to go to court and the onus is on me to prove otherwise.

"In our nearly 8 years of selling e-bikes, we have yet to hear of/from any of our customers who have had any issues with law enforcement while out riding. As long as you are riding respectfully and following road/trail rules, most cops have bigger fish to fry." -not if there is an accident, a cop simply wants to mete their personal justice or a politician tells the cops to clean things up.

I gave them 4 days and 4 emails and not once have they been straight with me on wattage and legality. It was upsetting.
All they had to say was something like: We understand your concern, let me send out some letter head signed by X (Roshan?) stating that you do indeed own an ebike as defined by the powers that be in Ontario and Saskatchewan and it was shipped from our manufacturing center with a motor that does not exceed the 500W limit in your province.

I know the ebike laws are messed up and wattage is a poor metric but it is the anvil of the law hanging over our heads and a if it comes down to it a judge needs a complelling and easy reason to agree that Juggernaut owners do indeed own an ebike.
Here my bike sits in my living room all week and on Canada day.
Maybe it doesn't do well at 500W, I don't know; presales qualifying is so important.

The programming question: how is this model programmed for Canada? I was told this motor is from Bafang and they have a one and done programming license.

Roshan, this is what is going on at your company, I have escalated twice already. What do I do here?

@roshan looks like he’s been absent since April!

 

[rich c]

You expect a company that only sells on the internet to have a legal expert on staff? It's up to you to purchase a legal eBike if that is your concern. If you bought from a local bicycle shop, then you get to hang around and chit chat. How many phone calls and emails do you suspect Biktrix gets a day? Every one of those people expect premium service on a lower end eBike like you. That just won't work unless they have about 20 customer service experts and they charge a few hundred more dollars for the bikes.

 

[prestoOne]

For those nay sayers. If someone sells you an ebike and tells you that you can legally ride it on the road.
1. One expects you were sold an ebike (it is legally defined) where the store is located.
2. One expects that they can ride it legally on the road where the store is located because the staff does their ads of them riding the bike there on shared use paths and the street.
3. The laws are quite universal across Canada, though they can vary slightly thanks for the feds downloading the work to the provinces (dumb as heck if you ask me)
Qualifying customers like say Radbikes does makes things go smoother for everyone.

Anyways 3 customer service days later and I have not heard back. This should have been easy for them to do but it sounds like they don't want to.

 

[prestoOne]

::eyeroll:: see how funny it is if someone gets into an accident, are denied insurance coverage and get sued for a couple of hundred grand.
Or get dinged with a $6 thousand dollar ticket for no insurance (has happened before).

 

[tomjasz]

Try telling a judge you're innocent because you didn't know something was against the law.

 

[ElevenAD]

The Biktrix name and company have value and purpose, that is a huge portion of their customer's purchases.

I don't understand why it is OK for you to have faith they will send the documentation and not OK for me to have faith in Biktrix, our consumer laws here in Canada.

I don't understand why would you blame me for having faith.
If I had no faith I wouldn't have made any purchase.

I never said anything about documentation and things like faith and expectation have little importance when buying a new E-Bike. Do your research before you spend the money. If legality is priority one you should research it, even go on a forum like this and ask some questions.

 

[prestoOne]

You guys stick to your non-canadian ways and expectations and i will stick with the Canadian way when dealing with Canadians.
Honestly, not sure why one wouldnt order direct via Alibaba if they had your same low expectations of local businesses.

 

[harryS]

The whole power thing is mostly marketing, with sellers way above or way below their advertised claims.

That said, your bike over 500W by design, and why should Biktrix take any risk by sending you a 500W label?

 

[prestoOne]

The whole power thing is mostly marketing, with sellers way above or way below their advertised claims.

That said, your bike over 500W by design, and why should Biktrix take any risk by sending you a 500W label?

I didnt ask them to send a 500w label. They do sell them though if you want one. $20.

 

[ruffruff]

Honestly, not sure why one wouldnt order direct via Alibaba if they had your same low expectations of local businesses.

Bingo! Alibaba will sell you a highly illegal bike as well.

 

[prestoOne]

Keep worrying Presto, and you'll be caught, Rome.
What are the consequences, a traffic ticket, a violation of the traffic regulations?
Your reputations tattered and a long court battle await, horrors!
Continue very afraid or quit.

You are too personal there and I am not going to go after you in the same way:
1. I remove myself from such situations.
2. Rome lives in the U.S. and the base rules of law are very different.
3. Not giving information to the police is a similar concept in Canada as it is the U.S.

When I get this all settled I will post a review and summarize. There is more than meets the eye on just this thread.

 

[roshan]

Programming question and CS question here and I am hoping Biktrix's Roshan can help out here because communications with customer service broke down immediately and 4 days and exchanges later they are still no closer to addressing the issue. They turned a feel good purchase into a very bad experience. I am going to air some ugliness here, I apologize in advance.

Juggernaught Hub Duo is what I purchased and received; very comfortable and easy to put together. I did the whole presales phone call thing and bought on that, using a bit of faith and a friends recommendation.

1st item: The panniers are not made for this bike, customer service said they are. No way the clips fit on the rack and so they have to sit on the frame, clang and move around.

2nd item: I stumble across the definition of ebike in Canada (in just about every province including Biktrix's home) 32Km/hr and 500watts for the motor. It is a 750W motor!
My friend said his motor was limited when he got it because they would not ship it without the locks (but he unlocked it.)

Basically a 750 watt motor isn't good for anything legal, can't even license it as a moped because there is no manufacturing sticker. Insurance won't cover it and police will ticket it. All I need to to is be unlucky and be in an accident and the fines for this vehicle if illegal even if no one gets hurt are over $10K; it is no jokey.

No problem I will contact Bitrix Customer Support and they will help with the solution to my anxiety.
Instead what I got where CS reps ignoring the 500w limit and talking about other stuff:
-everyone is doing it, they are happy
-referring to the U.S. market (They know me and their head office is in Canada)
-


Some quotes from the team:
"We all drive cars that have way more speed limit that we in reality ever use, correct, but the cop doesn't argue that if the car has the capacity to reach 160kmph, we can't drive it at 50kmph unless their records prove the opposite."

"Street Legal wattage varies across North America, and as such we have made it so our bikes can be limited and changed to suit the varying needs and regulations of our riders and their locations. When they leave here, they are set to 32km/h." - again dodging wattage cap and they know where they work and I live: Saskatchewan and Canada.

"So while your motor is a 750w motor, by limiting the speed to 32km per hour you limit the nominal output of the motor. Short of putting the class sticker on your bike, there is no way to prove this to law enforcement should they pull you over, but on the other hand, they also don't (to our knowledge) have a way to check the wattage aside from checking for class sticker" -Dancing. All they have to do is look on the website or say it exceeds 500W and then have to go to court and the onus is on me to prove otherwise.

"In our nearly 8 years of selling e-bikes, we have yet to hear of/from any of our customers who have had any issues with law enforcement while out riding. As long as you are riding respectfully and following road/trail rules, most cops have bigger fish to fry." -not if there is an accident, a cop simply wants to mete their personal justice or a politician tells the cops to clean things up.

I gave them 4 days and 4 emails and not once have they been straight with me on wattage and legality. It was upsetting.
All they had to say was something like: We understand your concern, let me send out some letter head signed by X (Roshan?) stating that you do indeed own an ebike as defined by the powers that be in Ontario and Saskatchewan and it was shipped from our manufacturing center with a motor that does not exceed the 500W limit in your province.

I know the ebike laws are messed up and wattage is a poor metric but it is the anvil of the law hanging over our heads and a if it comes down to it a judge needs a complelling and easy reason to agree that Juggernaut owners do indeed own an ebike.
Here my bike sits in my living room all week and on Canada day.
Maybe it doesn't do well at 500W, I don't know; presales qualifying is so important.

The programming question: how is this model programmed for Canada? I was told this motor is from Bafang and they have a one and done programming license.

Roshan, this is what is going on at your company, I have escalated twice already. What do I do here?

First item: the universal pannier bags that we sell has multiple straps (I believe 6/8 of them, I need to check, can and will update exact number) and 2 x OPTIONAL plastic mounts on each side on the back. Using ALL STRAPS and ALL PLASTIC MOUNTS are not mandatory. Depending on the bike and the rack style, you may use one or the other or both. On the hub duo, the panniers are fastened to the rack using 2 straps on the back of the panniers, then one strap attached to the seatpost and another one attached to the rear of the rack. This would keep the panniers from:
1. Bouncing up and down (due to the straps in the back of the rack)
2. Sliding back and forth (as it is fastened in the front and the back)
With these two things constrained, there is no additional straps necessary to use the bag as it was designed to be used. If this isn't clear, let me know and I can get someone to make a video for you to show you how this works. The plastic mounts are designed for other racks that have commuter style racks. This is also why we do not mention or advertise the plastic mounts on the rack. As seen on our website: https://www.biktrix.ca/products/canvas-pannier-bags

Second item: Does your motor say 750W? Does your display show 750W? How do you know it is 750W? We sell 500W and 750W bikes to customes depending on what they want. Our website shows 750W as that is what the motor is capable to produce. We use software and firmware limits on the controller to limit the motor to 500W or unlock it to 750W. The firmware is tied to the speed setting on the display. When we ship bikes out to customers who request street legal mode, we set speed limit to 32kph - which hard limits the power draw to 500W on the motor. Did you change this speed limit? Did you ask us to ship a limited or unlocked bike? Attached screenshot of the option on our website for the bike that you purchased.

Our website clearly shows that several of our bikes are 750W capable. Did you see this and intentionally buy the bike for steet use when you knew that the street legal limit in your jurisdiction is 500W just to complain that you didn't get a 500W bike? Or am I missing something?

 

[prestoOne]

First item: the universal pannier bags that we sell has multiple straps (I believe 6/8 of them, I need to check, can and will update exact number) and 2 x OPTIONAL plastic mounts on each side on the back. Using ALL STRAPS and ALL PLASTIC MOUNTS are not mandatory. Depending on the bike and the rack style, you may use one or the other or both. On the hub duo, the panniers are fastened to the rack using 2 straps on the back of the panniers, then one strap attached to the seatpost and another one attached to the rear of the rack. This would keep the panniers from:


Second item: Does your motor say 750W? Does your display show 750W? How do you know it is 750W? We sell 500W and 750W bikes to customes depending on what they want. Our website shows 750W as that is what the motor is capable to produce. We use software and firmware limits on the controller to limit the motor to 500W or unlock it to 750W. The firmware is tied to the speed setting on the display. When we ship bikes out to customers who request street legal mode, we set speed limit to 32kph - which hard limits the power draw to 500W on the motor. Did you change this speed limit? Did you ask us to ship a limited or unlocked bike? Attached screenshot of the option on our website for the bike that you purchased.

Our website clearly shows that several of our bikes are 750W capable. Did you see this and intentionally buy the bike for steet use when you knew that the street legal limit in your jurisdiction is 500W just to complain that you didn't get a 500W bike? Or am I missing something?

Hi Roshan, Thank you for posting.

Panniers:
-There are 8 straps for attaching to the bike plus 2 for a top load.
-Only 2 of the 8 straps are usable on the rack for the purposes of securing (the side straps can only hold to the very end of bike and slide around). One can be attached to the front of the rack on top, the other to the back of the rack on top. That is not secure.
-The plastic hook-ons bounce and slide the back to one side.
-This bag was designed for racks like Biktrix put on other bikes in the past, maybe still do but not the Juggernaut HD.

I think a mistake has been made: May I have pictures of how Biktrix thinks this pannier is supposed to be mounted on the Juggernaut Hub Duo?

Motor:
I don't understand why the staff would say they sold me a 750 watt (rated motor) and that it is a Bafang G060 motor but not identify the full model number- May I know the full model number? Is it the G060 250/350/500 or 750?

There is no option for customization of motor provided by Biktrix and Bitrix staff said so.

"Our website clearly shows that several of our bikes are 750W capable. Did you see this and intentionally bought the bike for steet legal use when you knew that the street legal limit in your jurisdiction is 500W just to complain that you didn't get a 500W bike? Or am I missing something?"

I made the purchases with 100% good faith.
I was not looking for a street legal bike, I was looking for an ebike for legal ebike use. That is why I went to Biktrix.ca's ebike section and called Biktrix pre-sales support. I trusted Biktrix, was that wrong?

PrestoOne

 

[tomjasz]

Hi Roshan, Thank you for posting.

Panniers:
-There are 8 straps for attaching to the bike plus 2 for a top load.
-Only 2 of the 8 straps are usable on the rack for the purposes of securing (the side straps can only hold to the very end of bike and slide around). One can be attached to the front of the rack on top, the other to the back of the rack on top. That is not secure.
-The plastic hook-ons bounce and slide the back to one side.
-This bag was designed for racks like Biktrix put on other bikes in the past, maybe still do but not the Juggernaut HD.

I think a mistake has been made: May I have pictures of how Biktrix thinks this pannier is supposed to be mounted on the Juggernaut Hub Duo?

Motor:
I don't understand why the staff would say they sold me a 750 watt (rated motor) and that it is a Bafang G060 motor but not identify the full model number- May I know the full model number? Is it the G060 250/350/500 or 750?

There is no option for customization of motor provided by Biktrix and Bitrix staff said so.

"Our website clearly shows that several of our bikes are 750W capable. Did you see this and intentionally bought the bike for steet legal use when you knew that the street legal limit in your jurisdiction is 500W just to complain that you didn't get a 500W bike? Or am I missing something?"

I made the purchases with 100% good faith.
I was not looking for a street legal bike, I was looking for an ebike for legal ebike use. That is why I went to Biktrix.ca's ebike section and called Biktrix pre-sales support. I trusted Biktrix, was that wrong?

PrestoOne

Why hang your laundry here. Email them directly. No other reseller supports customers here. Why should they?