The Green Room

[reed scott]

In the interests of 'saving' power, i.e. reducing consumption at peak times, California relys on 'rolling black outs' where select areas are just disconnected from the grid. Our business has experienced a number of these shut offs this year. Luckily we bit the bullet a few years ago and installed a propane powered auto-start generator that can power the entire business so no business interruptions nor stranded tenants on the property. Our nearest competitor has done the same thing, as we have at our home. These are all propane powered.

The elec utility, PG&E has done the same thing at a number of locations around the area to assure uninterrupted power to important services; traffic lights at crowded intersections, elder care homes, etc. These are generally powered with diesel fuel. I rode by one of these installations earlier where 3 or 4 large cargo trailers containing the generators were pulled into an existing switch yard across from a couple of residential apartment complexes. Surprisingly noisey and more than just a wiff of diesel in the air.

So, I need to ask. Wouldn't it make more sense for California to be less restrictive about new generating facilites than have homes, businesses, and the elec utility rely on higher polluting generators to keep the lights on? On top of this CA has the highest electricity rates in the country. Makes me wonder how realistic the plans are for for carbon reduction thought electrified vehicles...

Gee, and MAYBE, just maybe get back to drilling the oceans of clean burning natural gas sitting under thousands of acres of California? Or they 'could' build some of the latest tech nuclear plants.

 

[Art Deco]

In the interests of 'saving' power, i.e. reducing consumption at peak times, California relys on 'rolling black outs' where select areas are just disconnected from the grid. Our business has experienced a number of these shut offs this year. Luckily we bit the bullet a few years ago and installed a propane powered auto-start generator that can power the entire business so no business interruptions nor stranded tenants on the property. Our nearest competitor has done the same thing, as we have at our home. These are all propane powered.

The elec utility, PG&E has done the same thing at a number of locations around the area to assure uninterrupted power to important services; traffic lights at crowded intersections, elder care homes, etc. These are generally powered with diesel fuel. I rode by one of these installations earlier where 3 or 4 large cargo trailers containing the generators were pulled into an existing switch yard across from a couple of residential apartment complexes. Surprisingly noisey and more than just a wiff of diesel in the air.

So, I need to ask. Wouldn't it make more sense for California to be less restrictive about new generating facilites than have homes, businesses, and the elec utility rely on higher polluting generators to keep the lights on? On top of this CA has the highest electricity rates in the country. Makes me wonder how realistic the plans are for for carbon reduction thought electrified vehicles...

A moment ago I replied to your fire season thread that inspired this one that I never considered that either would run over a year continiously. Yet. Here we are. No changes, no progress, a step forward, followed by two steps backwards.
Electric vehicles of the two wheeled sort could work. Electric vehicles of the four wheeled sort probably won't, but thats all that matters to "infrastructure planners". Propane is still fossil fuel, diesel is even worse. BAH.

 

[Sierratim]

@reed scott -

Nuclear power is verboten in CA, through the gov did issue a special order to delay the mandatory shut down of the state's last nuclear plant, Diablo Canyon, to help minimize rolling black outs. The utility has applied for a rate increase to cover the costs of shutting this plant down...

The city of Berkeley, home to a state university campus, was the first city in CA to ban natural gas powered appliances in all new construction and remodels. Other cities have followed suit. I believe legislation has been introduced at the state level to implement a state wide ban. That leaves electricity as the only available power source.

I don't see the plan that will develop enough solar & wind power to replace the nuclear plants and power the increased electric demand from new homes and electric vehicles, but I'm just an old engineer so maybe I missed something...

BTW - California has adopted a state wide ban on the sale of internal combustion engines in the near future making CA an electric vehicle only market. So seems like rolling blackouts and generators will be a fact of life of some time.

 

[Art Deco]

Fire updates
California recorded its first gigafire (over 1 million acres) last year as the August Complex Fire chewed through 1,032,648 acres and more than 900 structures. The Dixie Fire this year is on track to be the second ever.
Flood updates
Storm intensity is increasing much faster than the average change in precipitation,” said Aiguo Dai, a professor of atmospheric science at the University at Albany, SUNY. “And it’s the intensity that really matters, because that’s what we design our infrastructure to handle.”
Hurricane Ida swept over New York City, Central Park recorded 3.15 inches of rain in a single hour on Wednesday night, smashing the previous one-hour record of 1.94 inches set on Aug. 21 during Tropical Storm Henri.

 

[Handlebars]

Fire updates
California recorded its first gigafire (over 1 million acres) last year as the August Complex Fire chewed through 1,032,648 acres and more than 900 structures. The Dixie Fire this year is on track to be the second ever.
Flood updates
Storm intensity is increasing much faster than the average change in precipitation,” said Aiguo Dai, a professor of atmospheric science at the University at Albany, SUNY. “And it’s the intensity that really matters, because that’s what we design our infrastructure to handle.”
Hurricane Ida swept over New York City, Central Park recorded 3.15 inches of rain in a single hour on Wednesday night, smashing the previous one-hour record of 1.94 inches set on Aug. 21 during Tropical Storm Henri.
View attachment 99897

New York has been plain old lucky, having stupidly invested in every green dream and never thinking of dealing with the storms of our grandparents.

Whatever reason would we have to protect the subways from hurricanes?

 

[Art Deco]

While hardening infrastructure seems like a good idea, there are major obstacles.
One is obvious: It is much easier to harden infrastructure when building it from scratch. Upgrading any piece of existing infrastructure means working within the limitations of that infrastructure and replacing and adding parts than rebuilding. While some of Louisiana’s electrical grid might be rebuilt from scratch, very little electrical infrastructure elsewhere will be rebuilt since upgrading will be less expensive.
Second obstacle may not be so obvious: Climate, the primary reason for hardening, is a moving target. The planet has not simply reached a new stable state. Rather, climate change itself is changing, that is, it is getting worse over time.
Third, there is a substantial lag between the time climate warming gases are released into the atmosphere and the effects are seen.
Climate change is not a linear process. Climate-induced wind, water and heat-related challenges may not simply grow, but increase at an exponential rate.
Well, over a year later, this thread may have run it's course.

 

[Handlebars]

While hardening infrastructure seems like a good idea, there are major obstacles.
(...)
Second obstacle may not be so obvious: Climate, the primary reason for hardening, is a moving target. The planet has not simply reached a new stable state. Rather, climate change itself is changing, that is, it is getting worse over time.
(...)

selected passages

As if the climate change schemes do not demand leaping major hurdles, like disposing of fossil fuels use and having bugs for breakfast.

If they will not prepare for the storms of the grandparents while they do all that, they are frauds, plain and simple.
New York City has now escaped direct hurricane hit for how many years? As far as memory goes?

Eighty-five tropical or subtropical cyclones have affected the state of New York since the 17th century. The state of New York is located along the East Coast of the United States, in the Northeastern portion of the country. The strongest of these storms was the 1938 New England hurricane, which struck Long Island as a Category 3 storm on the Saffir–Simpson hurricane scale.

 

[Handlebars]

climate change itself is changing, that is, it is getting worse over time.

Climate change change now. Next it will be climate change change change. I can't wait until climate change change change change..next week.

this thread may have run it's course.

 

[Handlebars]

Climate-induced wind, water and heat-related challenges may not simply grow, but increase at an exponential rate.

...after 30 odd years of screachers (screechy preachers) shrilling, shilling, and double billing...

... the worst for the state was still '38

 

[Handlebars]

Well, over a year later, this thread may have run it's course.

No, lets look at the 1930's instead of shutting down. Why do these compromised climate scientists and politicians and media not like what happened wrt climate "abnormal" data in the 1930'S ?
Because it was too early to claim it was from CO2 according to their own narrative. The records set do not mesh with the screacher's narrative.
Time to examine what proper scientists say, what the evidence is, and what the mainstream cheaters, the big boys at IPCC, do.

 

[Handlebars]

Here's the cast of 2 dudes who are going to alter the official temperature records to reduce a surge in temperature that doesn't fit their narrative:
Tom Wigley wrote:

Phil Jones wrote:I presume you meant Jan 18, 2005 ! In 1965 you would have been 25 - your heydey.
Mine was when I was 28 in 1970 !

Phil,
Good news. You are correct, my 65th bithday is Jan. 18, 1965.
I thought retired persons were allowed to be employed up to
one-third time for the next 5 years?
Tom.

And it gets worse, as Phil who corrects Tom, shows that he can't do simple calculations without gross errors, or find trends, at the moment, because there was nobody around at the university during holidays who could do that for him.

So here they go in attempt to alter the past to fit the narrative. " It would be good to remove at least part of the 1940s blip, but we are still left with "why the blip"."
Maybe it would be good to not cheat on the historical record you are entrusted with? As seen, they were trying to manipulate the record in a way that wouldn't raise concerns. Justifying it is what was concerning them, but justification could only go so far. They were trying to find a way to not be called out for removing high temps in the historical record. Tom implicitly explained that since sea is 2/3 of earth, reducing that has a greater effect on global temperature than reducing land temps, and people know about land temps and have memories of them. Not so with sea temps. but if they diddled the sea temps then it should be reflected in land temps too... so they thought about how much they could get away with.

Tom Wigley <[email protected]>

To: Phil Jones <[email protected]>
Subject: 1940s
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 23:25:38 -0600
Cc: Ben Santer <[email protected]>

"Phil, Here are some speculations on correcting SSTs to partly explain the 1940s warming blip. If you look at the attached plot you will see that the land also shows the 1940s blip (as I'm sure you know). So, if we could reduce the ocean blip by, say, 0.15 degC, then this would be significant for the global mean -- but we'd still have to explain the land blip.

I've chosen 0.15 here deliberately. This still leaves an ocean blip, and i think one needs to have some form of ocean blip to explain the land blip (via either some common forcing, or ocean forcing land, or vice versa, or all of these). When you look at other blips, the land blips are 1.5 to 2 times (roughly) the ocean blips -- higher sensitivity plus thermal inertia effects. My 0.15 adjustment leaves things consistent with this, so you can see where I am coming from. Removing ENSO does not affect this. It would be good to remove at least part of the 1940s blip, but we are still left with "why the blip".

 

[Handlebars]

Tom Crowley Department of Oceanography at the Texas A&M University

read this about alpine glaciers. After growing to a great extent in the cold period, near the end of the Little Ice Age
September 22, 2000: email 0969618170

Alpine glaciers also started to retreat in many regions around 1850, with one-third to one-half of their full retreat occurring before the warming that commenced about 1920

 

[Handlebars]

A cherry picker's dream
"The ability to pick and choose which samples to use is an advantage unique to dendroclimatology."

Try to explain THAT approach in any other scientific paper not involved with climate.

comment from Esper et al. (Cook, Krusic, Peters, Schweingruber) from Tree Ring Res. 2003, p.92

Before venturing into the subject of sample depth and chronology quality, we state from the beginning, "more is always better". However as we mentioned earlier on the subject of biological growth populations, this does not mean that one could not improve a chronology by reducing the number of series used if the purpose of removing samples is to enhance a desired signal. The ability to pick and choose which samples to use is an advantage unique to dendroclimatology. That said, it begs the question: how low can we go?

 

[john peck]

While hardening infrastructure seems like a good idea, there are major obstacles.
One is obvious: It is much easier to harden infrastructure when building it from scratch. Upgrading any piece of existing infrastructure means working within the limitations of that infrastructure and replacing and adding parts than rebuilding. While some of Louisiana’s electrical grid might be rebuilt from scratch, very little electrical infrastructure elsewhere will be rebuilt since upgrading will be less expensive.
Second obstacle may not be so obvious: Climate, the primary reason for hardening, is a moving target. The planet has not simply reached a new stable state. Rather, climate change itself is changing, that is, it is getting worse over time.
Third, there is a substantial lag between the time climate warming gases are released into the atmosphere and the effects are seen.
Climate change is not a linear process. Climate-induced wind, water and heat-related challenges may not simply grow, but increase at an exponential rate.
Well, over a year later, this thread may have run it's course.

I´m almost to the point of throwing up my hands in despair. The screen name ´run for the hills´ pretty
much sez it all. No effective measures are being taken, & it may be too late anyway. I know what needs
done, but also realize accomplishing it is ´humanly´ impossible. As a species we simply cannot evolve
quickly enough to meet the challenge. It is left to nature to impose the solution.

 

[reed scott]

I´m almost to the point of throwing up my hands in despair. The screen name ´run for the hills´ pretty
much sez it all. No effective measures are being taken, & it may be too late anyway. I know what needs
done, but also realize accomplishing it is ´humanly´ impossible. As a species we simply cannot evolve
quickly enough to meet the challenge.

In my lifetime Americans have made large strides in environmental awareness. We forced revolutions in automobile powering, got rid of most of our coal fired plants, etc etc. Yes, I do not deny that we have offshored our dirty industries. And we have to correct this. But, the world needs to come down on China with both feet. They have like a thousand coal fired plants and bring a new one on line every week. They are damming up rivers all over SE Asia for power plants. To hell with the farmers and the fish. It goes on and on. If the Uber Climate Concerned will start yelling about China I will be a lot more on your side.

 

[Handlebars]

Phil Jones tells Tom Wigley.. and these are now both former directors of the CRU< Climate Research Unit in East Anglia, keeper of the global temperature records

I presume you meant Jan 18, 2005 ! In 1965 you would have been 25 - your heydey.
Mine was when I was 28 in 1970 !

Phil was born in 1952. Neither one of them can calculate from a date.
70-52= ___ ?

wiki: "Philip Douglas Jones (born April 22, 1952) is a former director of the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) and a Professor..."

 

[john peck]

In my lifetime Americans have made large strides in environmental awareness. We forced revolutions in automobile powering, got rid of most of our coal fired plants, etc etc. Yes, I do not deny that we have offshored our dirty industries. And we have to correct this. But, the world needs to come down on China with both feet. They have like a thousand coal fired plants and bring a new one on line every week. They are damming up rivers all over SE Asia for power plants. To hell with the farmers and the fish. It goes on and on. If the Uber Climate Concerned will start yelling about China I will be a lot more on your side.

Good luck with that.....sincerely.

 

[Art Deco]

In my lifetime Americans have made large strides in environmental awareness. We forced revolutions in automobile powering, got rid of most of our coal fired plants, etc etc. Yes, I do not deny that we have offshored our dirty industries. And we have to correct this. But, the world needs to come down on China with both feet. They have like a thousand coal fired plants and bring a new one on line every week. They are damming up rivers all over SE Asia for power plants. To hell with the farmers and the fish. It goes on and on. If the Uber Climate Concerned will start yelling about China I will be a lot more on your side.

China now out pollutes the US, Europe, and whoever is in 3ed place this week combined. And they just told John Kerry to go to H@ll. Is that a surprise?

 

[Handlebars]

China now out pollutes the US, Europe, and whoever is in 3ed place this week combined. And they just told John Kerry to go to H@ll. Is that a surprise?

Surprise? No. The CCP has politicians, governments, the WHO, the IPCC and the UN as a whole under their command.

 

[Mulezen]

I keep hearing ‘well what about India and China’s emissions.’ The single biggest obstacle to intelligently dealing with climate change is our Congress, and has been for 40years. We have been the biggest part of the problem until recently. That other countries like China have passed us in pollution is no reason for us not to address the problem. A good start would be to remove all tax incentives/breaks from fossils fuels. But that would cramp the style of the old-line pompous suits who sell out to the highest bidders. Public funding of elections in the US is a solution that would get us out of a lot of jams beyond global warming.