The Green Room

[Catalyzt]

Look, I realize you folks are having fun trading personal insults and rooting for the big "redhats" vs "blue masks" game , but has anyone noticed the weather? Or fuel prices? Or the amount of packaging involved in having everything delivered?

I am old enough to remember when liberals believed in liberty and conservatives believed in conservation, so FWIW here's my take on modern American politics.

Today, every politician out there has their job only because it was the best job they could get at the time... IOW, no major corporation would hire them for any responsible position.

They may have some eager beaver enthusiasm for a year or two after their first election, but after that they learn to think of their constituents as what we really are to them ... pests, that are keeping them from important things like being on TV, or calling big donors for more money.

Way back when I was young, I thought that if I knew nothing about a pair of down ballot candidates, I should just vote for the party . Today, when I run into those unknowns, I just vote against the incumbent.

Politicians pay no attention to voters unless they think they might lose an election, so my vote might matter a tiny bit by making them pay some attention to their jobs. It's unlikely, but at least it's possible.

So all this thinly veiled partisan politics really has no place in a discussion of adapting to climate change. Whoever is in office, our government will probably continue to be the biggest part of the problem.

Sorry about that.

I like the way you put that: Partisan politics has no place in a discussion of climate change.

Why it's allowed here, I have no clue. For example: I'd love to talk about how to tell the difference between tech that's actually cleaner and greenwashed junk. I also remember back in the '70s we talked a lot about flywheels, fusion, and sterling engines-- great ideas that didn't quite work, didn't quite scale, or had other vulnerabilities. I've heard some chatter that fusion is looking more practical now-- is that actually true, or just more BS in search of venture capital?

I don't think I'll find out here (and Deco, that's not your fault, obviously) because the 'pollution' is no longer just in the air and water, it's in the information and the people who spread it. This stopped being a 'discussion' a long time ago. Every city needs a cop on the beat, and every forum should be moderated. This one isn't, and we need to start one that is. So maybe I'll look into that.

@Trolls: No one is afraid of you. No one has gone anywhere. If someone disappears from this thread (for a while), maybe it's not because they've been intimidated. Maybe it's because they're sick of talk, and are out in the world actually making s*it happen.

(Like Pedaluma's bike! And BTW, I am riding the kit bike so much more during my busy season-- it's just lighter, it accelerates faster. I may actually invest more money in it, get a better suspension seat post and suspension stem. I'm still loving the mid-drive eMTB, but between that and the Trek, it's like New York and Los Angeles to me-- neither makes sense without the other!)

And wherever we've gone, you can be sure of one thing: We're going harder. So go ahead, spam this thread with as much junk info as you like-- and I loved the one about the Israeli "Professor" in the "Covid Ward." 85% of adults in Israel are vaccinated, so of course most of the people in the COVID ward are vaccinated-- and if you read the whole quote, he notes that many of these vaccinated patients had serious respiratory health conditions!

In other words: This isn't a sample. There is no control group of unvaccinated patients. It's a single cherry-picked data point that proves nothing.

And now-- because this thread is unmoderated-- that story is linked to on this thread, and shows up in more search results, and more people will think it's saying something that it's not. (Which is not Art's fault, either.) So sure, that's a little depressing.

But Art makes a really good point here: << every politician out there has their job only because it was the best job they could get at the time >>

I'm here to tell you that this is absolutely changing. I see this every day-- really, really smart kids who are going into politics even though they know it's absolutely the most miserable career possible.

And don't believe, for an instant, that these really, really smart kids don't believe in climate change. Because for one thing, that's not really possible, and for another, Art is right about that, too: It is just that obvious. Particularly if you are bright and have a good education, and good educations aren't just for rich people anymore. Lots of really, really determined, angry disenfranchised and minority kids are getting really good educations right now.

Take care, guys. I'll be around.

 

[Mulezen]

NOVA this week had a relevant (and absorbing) program entitled ‘Arctic Sinkholes’. This is yet another unforeseen phenomenon of global warming. It has never been observed before and is extremely worrisome because of the very large amounts of methane released. It’s things like this threatening to run away with temperatures as they already are in the Arctic and poised to speed up. A gorgeous piece of TV despite the grim predictions.

 

[PedalUma]

It is not what you say. It is what you do. This is me today. Stamped by a bunch of active Hippy Chicks of all ages doing a group ride and taking back the streets. Thirty today and doubling each month.

 

[Catalyzt]

NOVA this week had a relevant (and absorbing) program entitled ‘Arctic Sinkholes’. This is yet another unforeseen phenomenon of global warming. It has never been observed before and is extremely worrisome because of the very large amounts of methane released. It’s things like this threatening to run away with temperatures as they already are in the Arctic and poised to speed up. A gorgeous piece of TV despite the grim predictions.

I should have a look-- thanks for posting, I didn't "like" because I don't like what this implies! (And I can pretend we're having a serious conversation for a few minutes at least!) I'm always more concerned about CO2 because it affects cognition more, and if the PPM gets too high, we'll become too stupid to solve any of our other problems, and cognition and emotion is my line of work. (Doesn't mean methane isn't a threat, obviously, whether it comes from cows or calthrates.)

The science on this is considerably harder for me to understand than COVID-- and further outside my own field, I don't work with this kind of scientist, and I'm not constantly soaking in peer-reviewed information on this topic, either. I think a lot of the variables are more in flux as well-- like exactly how much methane is trapped in the calthates, etc., etc. The other weird thing about it is, figuring the 'worst' greenhouse gasses involves not just how much forcing they generate, but how quickly the gas breaks down.

I can't attest to the validity of the following link, but this was really interesting. Water vapor the worst greenhouse gas? Definitely the worst for my joints and muscles, that's for sure-- and my doctor agrees, though she freely admits neither she, nor anyone else, really knows why that is!

I'm not suggesting, "Oh, water is the worst greenhouse gas, there's nothing we can do, we can't control cow farts, let's go drive that SUV." Obviously not-- if there's a 50 foot wave about to crush you, and you can't dive under it, obviously you try to surf it-- I'd rather have a 1% chance of survival than zero.

Meet the 10 Worst Greenhouse Gases

This is a look at the 10 worst greenhouse gases and how they affect the Earth's atmosphere.

www.thoughtco.com

 

[Handlebars]

I like the way you put that: Partisan politics has no place in a discussion of climate change.

Why it's allowed here, I have no clue. For example: I'd love to talk about how to tell the difference between tech that's actually cleaner and greenwashed junk. I also remember back in the '70s we talked a lot about flywheels, fusion, and sterling engines-- great ideas that didn't quite work, didn't quite scale, or had other vulnerabilities. I've heard some chatter that fusion is looking more practical now-- is that actually true, or just more BS in search of venture capital?

I don't think I'll find out here (and Deco, that's not your fault, obviously) because the 'pollution' is no longer just in the air and water, it's in the information and the people who spread it. This stopped being a 'discussion' a long time ago. Every city needs a cop on the beat, and every forum should be moderated. This one isn't, and we need to start one that is. So maybe I'll look into that.

@Trolls: No one is afraid of you. No one has gone anywhere. If someone disappears from this thread (for a while), maybe it's not because they've been intimidated. Maybe it's because they're sick of talk, and are out in the world actually making s*it happen.

(Like Pedaluma's bike! And BTW, I am riding the kit bike so much more during my busy season-- it's just lighter, it accelerates faster. I may actually invest more money in it, get a better suspension seat post and suspension stem. I'm still loving the mid-drive eMTB, but between that and the Trek, it's like New York and Los Angeles to me-- neither makes sense without the other!)

And wherever we've gone, you can be sure of one thing: We're going harder. So go ahead, spam this thread with as much junk info as you like-- and I loved the one about the Israeli "Professor" in the "Covid Ward." 85% of adults in Israel are vaccinated, so of course most of the people in the COVID ward are vaccinated-- and if you read the whole quote, he notes that many of these vaccinated patients had serious respiratory health conditions!

In other words: This isn't a sample. There is no control group of unvaccinated patients. It's a single cherry-picked data point that proves nothing.

And now-- because this thread is unmoderated-- that story is linked to on this thread, and shows up in more search results, and more people will think it's saying something that it's not. (Which is not Art's fault, either.) So sure, that's a little depressing.

But Art makes a really good point here: << every politician out there has their job only because it was the best job they could get at the time >>

I'm here to tell you that this is absolutely changing. I see this every day-- really, really smart kids who are going into politics even though they know it's absolutely the most miserable career possible.

And don't believe, for an instant, that these really, really smart kids don't believe in climate change. Because for one thing, that's not really possible, and for another, Art is right about that, too: It is just that obvious. Particularly if you are bright and have a good education, and good educations aren't just for rich people anymore. Lots of really, really determined, angry disenfranchised and minority kids are getting really good educations right now.

Take care, guys. I'll be around.

Please stop your name-calling and making your untrue allegations, if you can! thanks! It's against forum rules.

In other words: This isn't a sample. There is no control group of unvaccinated patients. It's a single cherry-picked data point that proves nothing.

It doesn't have to be a sample. It doesn't need a control. It is a simple fact that you do not like. The hyper-vaxxed have their own pandemic going on and you can't handle the truth so you have a tantrum and smear your opponents when all you need to do is ask questions about what you don't know, and you could be set straight.

Why deny a SIMPLE medical fact that the hyper-vaxxed are a sickly lot, and now filling the hospitals? This was found in mixed groups as well - the hyper vaxxed are sicker population than the unvaxxed at a rate per 100,000 that is higher. There's no getting away from the facts through furious name-calling and denialism,

 

[Handlebars]

NOVA this week had a relevant (and absorbing) program entitled ‘Arctic Sinkholes’.

NOVA is a stinkhole in itself. The under-educated midbrows worship something that sounds science-ish, don't they?

 

[BlackHand]

NOVA is a stinkhole in itself. The under-educated midbrows worship something that sounds science-ish, don't they?

Please stop your name-calling and making your untrue allegations, if you can! thanks! It's against forum rules.

Ummm, you were saying ?

 

[Handlebars]

Ummm, you were saying ?

That wasn't an attack on forum members. Here, I'll show an attack on forum members. This one is typical, from Patricia.

those two knuckleheads

 

[DavidRvR]

I like the way you put that: Partisan politics has no place in a discussion of climate change.

Politics are partisan by nature

@Trolls: No one is afraid of you. No one has gone anywhere. If someone disappears from this thread (for a while), maybe it's not because they've been intimidated. Maybe it's because they're sick of talk, and are out in the world actually making s*it happen.

Ignore, Time away, Cooling down.. Don't think anyone is looking to make anyone so distraught that they stop going to the forum or the topic at hand... Not sure why some take a discussion so personal but it is a sign of the times.. America was built on a difference of opinion and tolerance .. Some have neither.

And wherever we've gone, you can be sure of one thing: We're going harder. So go ahead, spam this thread with as much junk info as you like-- and I loved the one about the Israeli "Professor" in the "Covid Ward." 85% of adults in Israel are vaccinated, so of course most of the people in the COVID ward are vaccinated-- and if you read the whole quote, he notes that many of these vaccinated patients had serious respiratory health conditions!

In other words: This isn't a sample. There is no control group of unvaccinated patients. It's a single cherry-picked data point that proves nothing.

You obviously havnt followed Israel to close on infections and Vaccinations/ Hospitals.... Same is happening in the united states.. I also post that the CDC said that 75% of the dead in the USA had 4 or more other health issues that were the cause of death NOT Covid... so that falls right in line with what has been posted.. Seems you have cherry picked what you wanted to see in the article.. there are plenty other ones out there to see but they seem to come to the conclusion that the shot/ booster and so on are NOT working

And now-- because this thread is unmoderated-- that story is linked to on this thread, and shows up in more search results, and more people will think it's saying something that it's not. (Which is not Art's fault, either.) So sure, that's a little depressing.

It is Moderated... I've seen posts deleted but I don't agree if your don't like ones opinion that you delete there post or Ban them... Think about what you are saying... No difference of opinion? I have given alternate facts but because one believes different I am the bad guy? I COULD SAY THE SAME... Hypocrisy

Soviet style Modding Venezuelan style Info Sharing ... Think like them or don't think at all... Maybe you should live in a country that doesn't allow free thinking for a year and see how that goes for you... China is not allowing reporters to report on certain things NOR the Athletes Competing...

Go to china and complain online about their GOVT... Id give you a week and you would be busting rocks in the mountains or worse.. Look what North Korea did to that kid for taking a poster.... And you want to have more control over "THINK"? Hmmm The Opressor.

But Art makes a really good point here: << every politician out there has their job only because it was the best job they could get at the time >>

They Fill their pockets on the taxpayers backs then retire and get Jobs that pay them or their families back... Seems every politions Kid is involved in some are of leaching off the govt.

Take care, guys. I'll be around.

We will be around ... Don't get to personal on these discussions.. its just a keyboard and Internet ninjas discussing life and thinking outload..

 

[Handlebars]

If volcanoes end the world... It's a natural process and that I can accept.
But if we do it.. at this point it is out of ignorance, complacency and greed.

My bottom line is this and I still haven't heard any argument that's worth entertaining. It doesn't matter if we are the cause or not, nor if it's happening or not. It is still pollution. It's still killing us and everything else and if we are as smart as we think we are there is no reason not to do all we can to leave this earth the way we found it.

1. Can accept a natural process which ends the world
2. Seemingly in contrast, cannot accept a human-caused ending of the world
Reasoning for not accepting is that it's done out of ignorance, complacency and greed.

Check the logic; motivation is what makes the world ending unacceptable. Scenario: Natural Drowning. Acceptance Level: "Good to go". Why would lack of causal motivation in such drowning, make drowning acceptable rather than something to struggle against?

 

[Mulezen]

I do keep cattle from time to time. My understanding is that their methane emissions come from feedlots where they are fed mostly corn and, since their systems aren’t geared for it, cause the flatulence and requires a heavy use of antibiotics. The large companies that operate these are also in effect setting cattle prices to the detriment of the farmer and the consumer.
Also the centralization of these ‘producers’ mean a less resilient and more dangerous food chain. Michael Pollan has written about this.

 

[tomjasz]

Yeah, the dipwads. When I locked down a agri chem locker and said no more the pundits swooped in and declared it would be a failure. It wasn’t, the least sustainable city in America with chemical free landscape gardens. If it can happen there it can work anywhere.

 

[Art Deco]

Yeah, the dipwads. When I locked down a agri chem locker and said no more the pundits swooped in and declared it would be a failure. It wasn’t, the least sustainable city in America with chemical free landscape gardens. If it can happen there it can work anywhere.

I have no idea what you are talking about, but it sounds like something I would like to know .... can you explain with some details? Like what is a agri chem locker ?

 

[tomjasz]

I have no idea what you are talking about, but it sounds like something I would like to know .... can you explain with some details? Like what is a agri chem locker ?

A sea container for storing pesticides and herbicides for pest and disease control. Nasty stuff. All requiring protective gear and most very toxic. I linked a video. Really dangerous chemicals can and are used on golf course and public access gardens.

 

[Art Deco]

I do keep cattle from time to time. My understanding is that their methane emissions come from feedlots where they are fed mostly corn and, since their systems aren’t geared for it, cause the flatulence and requires a heavy use of antibiotics. The large companies that operate these are also in effect setting cattle prices to the detriment of the farmer and the consumer.
Also the centralization of these ‘producers’ mean a less resilient and more dangerous food chain. Michael Pollan has written about this.

My understanding is that when people kept just a few milk cows in the pasture, each individual cow produced less methane than when they are raised in an industrial farm setting with purchased feed. IDK the details, I never farmed.

 

[tomjasz]

My understanding is that when people kept just a few milk cows in the pasture, each individual cow produced less methane than when they are raised in an industrial farm setting with purchased feed. IDK the details, I never farmed.

Corn fed beef also selects for e-coli. Corn not a good food choice for ruminants. Corn acidified the stomachs nearer to humans and now e-coli can survive, increase, and pass on to humans. Some cultures can have an entire wedding meal with scores of relatives on a single chicken. We’d need 1each.

Containment chicken farms are nuts?!?!

 

[tomjasz]

I have no idea what you are talking about, but it sounds like something I would like to know .... can you explain with some details? Like what is a agri chem locker ?

PM sent

 

[Art Deco]

A sea container for storing pesticides and herbicides for pest and disease control. Nasty stuff. All requiring protective gear and most very toxic. I linked a video. Really dangerous chemicals can and are used on golf course and public access gardens.

Ok. Pesticides and herbicides I know enough about to mostly avoid. Our suburban garden is all organic and is very productive. Likewise a few friends who have exceptional vegetable gardens do not use those chemicals.
Meanwhile the people on my street who pay to have their yards sprayed twice a year usually have pretty crappy looking lawns. I suspect that after a few years of using the "Chem Lawn" approach they need to either let it rest a few years or up the dosage to get the same results as the golf course lawns they are trying to emulate. Just guessing.

 

[tomjasz]

Just guessing.

You hit it dead on. DEAD soils, the entire biological herd is decimated, and what survives selects for more pressure, diseases. That same imbalance selects for weeds. Thermophilic compost and vermicompost can be naturally "manipulated" to create a healthy soil food web.

 

[Art Deco]

I do keep cattle from time to time. My understanding is that their methane emissions come from feedlots where they are fed mostly corn and, since their systems aren’t geared for it, cause the flatulence and requires a heavy use of antibiotics. The large companies that operate these are also in effect setting cattle prices to the detriment of the farmer and the consumer.
Also the centralization of these ‘producers’ mean a less resilient and more dangerous food chain. Michael Pollan has written about this.

A story ... My wife and I once took a roadtrip through Georgia and N. Carolina in a tiny 2 seat convertible, staying mostly on secondary roads. We just picked some interesting looking roads (on a paper map) and drove ; beautiful countryside, nice top down weather, but...
This was back when N. Carolina had lots of pig farms and open lagoons for manure. Long story short, we got stuck between those lagoons on both sides of the road for miles .
The stench...