"The Dirty Truth Behind Electric Vehicles"

[J.R.]

https://www.worldcrunch.com/tech-science/the-dirty-truth-behind-electric-vehicles-1

I don't think many of us here are completely surprised with the information contained in this article. The title is definitely click bait. I guess no one would read an article entitled: 'Where do LEV batteries come from and what do we do with them after use?' That title is too long and boring.

Not a long article and worth the read.

 

[SirJonathan]

I didn't read it but as somebody that has owned Teslas since 2013 and followed them long before that I've seen them all. Watching the Tesla forum folks decode them and pick apart their data used to be entertaining to me but now I just move on.

 

[J.R.]

I didn't read it but as somebody that has owned Teslas since 2013 and followed them long before that I've seen them all. Watching the Tesla forum folks decode them and pick apart their data used to be entertaining to me but now I just move on.

It's just data, mostly compiled by the EU. It lays out current and future challenges of the LEV battery industry. Includes ebikes. It doesn't take a pro or con stance on the vehicles. Batteries and electronics do pose challenges. Challenges we haven't figured out yet. EV's are here to stay.

 

[Randroid]

It's just data, mostly compiled by the EU. It lays out current and future challenges of the LEV battery industry. Includes ebikes. It doesn't take a pro or con stance on the vehicles. Batteries and electronics do pose challenges. Challenges we haven't figured out yet. EV's are here to stay.

It's just data, mostly compiled by the EU. It lays out current and future challenges of the LEV battery industry. Includes ebikes. It doesn't take a pro or con stance on the vehicles. Batteries and electronics do pose challenges. Challenges we haven't figured out yet. EV's are here to stay.

After 100+ years we still haven't figured out how to make the internal combustion engine ecologically safe. It will, no doubt, always be the same : man first, planet second.

 

[scrambler]

After 100+ years we still haven't figured out how to make the internal combustion engine ecologically safe. It will, no doubt, always be the same : man first, planet second.

Guess who may win in the end....
My bet and hope is the planet will win and we will go extinct

 

[Randroid]

Guess who may win in the end....
My bet and hope is the planet will win and we will go extinct

You and me both.

 

[Randroid]

Guess who may win in the end....
My bet and hope is the planet will win and we will go extinct

Me too !

 

[6zfshdb]

Lithium is a relatively rare element and, just like oil, there is a finite amount available on planet earth. Are we destined to run out of lithium as well as oil in the future?

Yes, lithium batteries can be recycled but only to a point. Eventually, the law of diminishing returns comes into play.

We can only hope that alternative energy sources, along with storage methods that don't rely on rare elements, will be developed in the not too distant future.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Lithium is a relatively rare element and, just like oil, there is a finite amount available on planet earth.

We have enough Lithium for about 50 years worth of EV production.
There are billions of tons of Lithium in the ocean but companies have not looked into it because it's demand has not necessitated that but in the coming years, companies may do that.
Oil companies drill in the ocean all the time but Lithium extraction is expected to be much less harmful.

Well, the point I want to make is Lithium content in a typical EV battery is only 2% of the overall weight. Most of the weight comes from Nickel, Manganese and steel casing.

 

[erider_61]

Battery technology will also evolve, and my guess is 10 years from now lithium will not even be part of the battery equation...

 

[Asher]

Compared to walking, electric vehicles of any kind are far more destructive to the environment.

That said, an electric car is easily ~100x worse than an electric bike. The car has 50-100x more battery cells, and induces far more distance traveled, which means more urban sprawl is created, encroaching upon wildlife and using more concrete, water, etc. Then there's the nonexhaust pollution, the lack of physical activity, the crash deaths... The electric car is really only an incremental improvement when considering the terrible consequences of cars. 'Low tar cigarettes' as engineer and environmentalist Ozzie Zehner called them.

The appeal of the electric car is not its improvements. It's that it allows us to maintain the same car-centric life with hardly any change to our habits. The next time you buy a car, you get the electric model, and now you're a climate hero.

[That said, electric vehicles for commercial, non-personal use are valuable.]

 

[john peck]

Trending in other news: trump has posthumously pardoned Susan B. Anthony. What a guy.

 

[john peck]

It's just data, mostly compiled by the EU. It lays out current and future challenges of the LEV battery industry. Includes ebikes. It doesn't take a pro or con stance on the vehicles. Batteries and electronics do pose challenges. Challenges we haven't figured out yet. EV's are here to stay.

I´ve read in New Atlas of several promising developments in battery tech. One that may increase capacity x 4. One to reduce charge time
to 5 minutes, & another that will reduce weight & use organic materials. Now, if we can just keep big oil from buying the patents, they might
actually reach the market.

 

[Deleted member 4210]

Fossil fuels will be with us supporting electric power generation and transportation for many decades into the future.

While maybe some of the hard fossils like coal will decline (don't tell that to China or India), the entire 'renewable' meme is on full display as we speak, with all it's inherent unreliability in California and many other countries like Germany, who was forced to back track significantly and go back to installing coal plants just to keep their power grid from being knocked out every few days.

So unless society is willing to adopt nukes, you can entirely forget about being weaned off fossil fuels anytime soon. Natural gas has an abundency of at least 500 years into the future, even if it's used for more than 75 percent of world power generation. The larger challenge with NG is attempting to use it directly for transportation, and the substantial amounts of cooling water it takes to achieve the combined cycle efficiencies they are now known for in stationary power gen plants, that get above 60% efficiency levels.


And no I haven't read the article yet, since I've been in the energy industry for more than 30 years. They all rehash the same things with these sorts of headline titles.

 

[john peck]

Fossil fuels will be with us supporting electric power generation and transportation for many decades into the future.

While maybe some of the hard fossils like coal will decline (don't tell that to China or India), the entire 'renewable' meme is in full display with all it's inherent unreliability in California and many other countries like Germany, who was forced to back track significantly and go back to installing coal plants just to keep their power grid from being knocked out every few days.

So unless society is willing to adopt nukes, you can entirely forget about being weaned off fossil fuels anytime soon. Natural gas has an abundency of at least 500 years into the future, even if it's used for more than 75 percent of world power generation. The larger challenge with NG is attempting to use it directly for transportation, and the substantial amounts of cooling water it takes to achieve the combined cycle efficiencies they are now known for, above 60%.

Agreed, It´ś too valuable a resource to wastefully burn, especially when stuck at 5 mph in rush hour gridlock

 

[J.R.]

It was a year and a half since posting the article link. The title is a click bait title, but the information it contains is well presented. As I recall it lays out the challenges in obtaining the materials for lithium ion batteries and what to do with the batteries when we're finished with them.

There's more money being spent on developing better batteries than there is in finding the best, most cost effective and safest way to mine the materials. Much of it comes from the poorest countries on earth. The other issue is law makers setting standards and quotas for recycling the used batteries, without understanding the technology and our limitations. Not unlike building nuclear power plants without knowing what to do with the waste.

There's always a dirty truth. The Scotch-Irish immigrants were driven to death by German immigrants to build the greatest transportation system in the world during the 1820's and 1830's, what became the Pennsylvania Railroad. When the workers dropped dead, they were thrown in the ditches alongside the tracks. Another ship lands from Ireland. A hundred and fifty years later folks put up memorials.

 

[BrianK]

The Scotch-Irish immigrants were driven to death by German immigrants to build the greatest transportation system in the world during the 1820's and 1830's, what became the Pennsylvania Railroad. When the workers dropped dead, they were thrown in the ditches alongside the tracks. Another ship lands from Ireland.

And before that, the Irish were the first slaves brought to the new world. (Don’t even begin to lecture me about a supposed difference between “slaves” and “indentured servants.” They were slaves, no matter the polite title.)

But I don’t see any ILM riots.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

 

[john peck]

View attachment 62822

I feel so guilty; I actually drove twice this week, a total of 30 miles.

 

[Deleted member 4210]

View attachment 62822

All Thanks to false promises of 'renewables' (and total ignoramuses who promoted them not knowing one damn thing about how the power grid operates and what attributes it needs to stay STABLE, UP, ON, and RELIABLE, NONE of which can be provided by solar or wind by themselves as they are highly variable low grade, high disperson power sources (but not HIGH DENSITY which is what you need to maintain grid power inertia) , and wind and solar are highly intermittent, and entirely unpredictable) but hey they are 'clean' aren't they ??? .....

Green California has the nation’s worst power grid - Washington Examiner

More than a million Californians suffered power blackouts last Friday evening. When high temperatures caused customer demand to exceed the power available, California electrical utilities used rotating outages to force a reduction in demand. The California grid is the worst in the nation, with...

www.washingtonexaminer.com

Green California has the nation's worst power grid
by Steve Goreham
| August 18, 2020 12:00 AM


"More than a million Californians suffered power blackouts last Friday evening. When high temperatures caused customer demand to exceed the power available, California electrical utilities used rotating outages to force a reduction in demand. The California grid is the worst in the nation, with green energy policies pursued by the state likely furthering reduced grid reliability.


At 6:30 p.m. on Friday, Pacific Gas and Electric, California’s biggest utility, began shutting off power in rolling outages to force a reduction in demand. Southern California Edison also denied power to homes, beginning just before 7 p.m. Shutoffs impacted a rotating group of up to 2 million customers until 11 p.m.

The California Independent System Operator declared a Stage Three Electrical Emergency, the first such emergency since 2001. Spot electricity prices soared to more than $1,000 per megawatt-hour, more than 10 times the usual price."


California has the least reliable electrical power system in the United States. It isn't even close. According to data by Eaton Corporation, the Golden State leads the U.S. in power outages every year, with more than twice as many as any other state over the last decade.

The causes of power outages can be divided into four major groups. In order of importance, these are weather or downed trees, faulty equipment or human errors, unknowns, and vehicle accidents (how many of those accidents were caused by Tesla drivers actually believing Musk, that they had 'self driving' vehicles they could fall asleep at the wheel in ) .

California suffered the largest number of outages in each category in each year for 2014 through 2017.


.... it just gets worse from there in this rather eye opening to most (but likely highly unpopular and unflattering to politicians and environmentalists) article.