"The Dirty Truth Behind Electric Vehicles"

[FlatSix911]

All Thanks to false promises of 'renewables' (and total ignoramuses who promoted them not knowing one damn thing about how the power grid operates and what attributes it needs to stay STABLE, UP, ON, and RELIABLE, NONE of which can be provided by solar or wind by themselves as they are highly variable low grade, high disperson power sources (but not HIGH DENSITY which is what you need to maintain grid power inertia) , and wind and solar are highly intermittent, and entirely unpredictable) but hey they are 'clean' aren't they ??? .....

Green California has the nation’s worst power grid - Washington Examiner

More than a million Californians suffered power blackouts last Friday evening. When high temperatures caused customer demand to exceed the power available, California electrical utilities used rotating outages to force a reduction in demand. The California grid is the worst in the nation, with...

www.washingtonexaminer.com

Green California has the nation's worst power grid
by Steve Goreham| August 18, 2020 12:00 AM
"More than a million Californians suffered power blackouts last Friday evening. When high temperatures caused customer demand to exceed the power available, California electrical utilities used rotating outages to force a reduction in demand. The California grid is the worst in the nation, with green energy policies pursued by the state likely furthering reduced grid reliability.

At 6:30 p.m. on Friday, Pacific Gas and Electric, California’s biggest utility, began shutting off power in rolling outages to force a reduction in demand. Southern California Edison also denied power to homes, beginning just before 7 p.m. Shutoffs impacted a rotating group of up to 2 million customers until 11 p.m.

The California Independent System Operator declared a Stage Three Electrical Emergency, the first such emergency since 2001. Spot electricity prices soared to more than $1,000 per megawatt-hour, more than 10 times the usual price."

California has the least reliable electrical power system in the United States. It isn't even close. According to data by Eaton Corporation, the Golden State leads the U.S. in power outages every year, with more than twice as many as any other state over the last decade.

The causes of power outages can be divided into four major groups. In order of importance, these are weather or downed trees, faulty equipment or human errors, unknowns, and vehicle accidents (how many of those accidents were caused by Tesla drivers actually believing Musk, that they had 'self driving' vehicles they could fall asleep at the wheel in ) .

California suffered the largest number of outages in each category in each year for 2014 through 2017..... it just gets worse from there in this rather eye opening to most (but likely highly unpopular and unflattering to politicians and environmentalists) article.

The Truth... the California Power Grid operates like Third World Country.

We have the highest prices in the mainland US and the lowest reliability.

 

[reed scott]

All Thanks to false promises of 'renewables' (and total ignoramuses who promoted them not knowing one damn thing about how the power grid operates and what attributes it needs to stay STABLE, UP, ON, and RELIABLE, NONE of which can be provided by solar or wind by themselves as they are highly variable low grade, high disperson power sources (but not HIGH DENSITY which is what you need to maintain grid power inertia) , and wind and solar are highly intermittent, and entirely unpredictable) but hey they are 'clean' aren't they ??? .....

Green California has the nation’s worst power grid - Washington Examiner

More than a million Californians suffered power blackouts last Friday evening. When high temperatures caused customer demand to exceed the power available, California electrical utilities used rotating outages to force a reduction in demand. The California grid is the worst in the nation, with...

www.washingtonexaminer.com

Green California has the nation's worst power grid
by Steve Goreham
| August 18, 2020 12:00 AM


"More than a million Californians suffered power blackouts last Friday evening. When high temperatures caused customer demand to exceed the power available, California electrical utilities used rotating outages to force a reduction in demand. The California grid is the worst in the nation, with green energy policies pursued by the state likely furthering reduced grid reliability.


At 6:30 p.m. on Friday, Pacific Gas and Electric, California’s biggest utility, began shutting off power in rolling outages to force a reduction in demand. Southern California Edison also denied power to homes, beginning just before 7 p.m. Shutoffs impacted a rotating group of up to 2 million customers until 11 p.m.

The California Independent System Operator declared a Stage Three Electrical Emergency, the first such emergency since 2001. Spot electricity prices soared to more than $1,000 per megawatt-hour, more than 10 times the usual price."


California has the least reliable electrical power system in the United States. It isn't even close. According to data by Eaton Corporation, the Golden State leads the U.S. in power outages every year, with more than twice as many as any other state over the last decade.

The causes of power outages can be divided into four major groups. In order of importance, these are weather or downed trees, faulty equipment or human errors, unknowns, and vehicle accidents (how many of those accidents were caused by Tesla drivers actually believing Musk, that they had 'self driving' vehicles they could fall asleep at the wheel in ) .

California suffered the largest number of outages in each category in each year for 2014 through 2017.


.... it just gets worse from there in this rather eye opening to most (but likely highly unpopular and unflattering to politicians and environmentalists) article.

The worlds population will continue to burgeon. With all the recent virus deaths the world didn't even see a dent in population increase. We can't even manage to recycle glass as of yet. The only hope for a better world will be fusion power. Without that it will be Mad Max/Blade Runner time. Or maybe Christ was right about the future.

 

[Kayakguy]

After 100+ years we still haven't figured out how to make the internal combustion engine ecologically safe. It will, no doubt, always be the same : man first, planet second.

With over 7 billion humans on the planet, and counting, there is no way we can avoid fouling our own nest, and fouling it badly. Though it's never mentioned when bemoaning the amount of methane produced by domestic animals, 7 billion people, all farting and shitting, have to be adding a huge amount to that potent greenhouse gas. But I do think that, in balance, ebikes probably are better than the internal combustion alternatives. Or we could all go back to walking and riding analog bikes.

 

[J.R.]

The thread and the article are about the complications of dealing with lithium-ion batteries. There are real challenges that can be solved. Electric vehicles are here to stay. Better and safer batteries will be developed.

Internal combustion engines at one time had what was called 'total loss oiling systems'. An oiler would drip oil constantly on the moving parts, some would burn away and the rest would simply drip onto the roadway. These days 5 quarts of quality synthetic oil can last 5000, 7000+ miles. And a 10 year old car today is more efficient and cleaner than a brand new car was in 1980.

Some think we aren't making progress, but a little observation and some knowledge of history shows a very different story. Electric vehicles and batteries we have now are probably in the Model T stage. Model T's were damned fine vehicles in their day. Cleaner, more efficient and very reliable compared to previous generations. Much more affordable too. EV's were toys for the rich, just a few short years ago. Now you can buy a quality ebike for $2k or so.

We are making progress! We are doing better today than we were yesterday. Cleaner, safer and more affordable.

 

[john peck]

The thread and the article are about the complications of dealing with lithium-ion batteries. There are real challenges that can be solved. Electric vehicles are here to stay. Better and safer batteries will be developed.

Internal combustion engines at one time had what was called 'total loss oiling systems'. An oiler would drip oil constantly on the moving parts, some would burn away and the rest would simply drip onto the roadway. These days 5 quarts of quality synthetic oil can last 5000, 7000+ miles. And a 10 year old car today is more efficient and cleaner than a brand new car was in 1980.

Some think we aren't making progress, but a little observation and some knowledge of history shows a very different story. Electric vehicles and batteries we have now are probably in the Model T stage. Model T's were damned fine vehicles in their day. Cleaner, more efficient and very reliable compared to previous generations. Much more affordable too. EV's were toys for the rich, just a few short years ago. Now you can buy a quality ebike for $2k or so.

We are making progress! We are doing better today than we were yesterday. Cleaner, safer and more affordable.

J.R., I have book marked 4 page from ´New Atlas´ on signifigant advances in battery technology, greater capacity, faster charging,
lighter,more organic & eco-friendly. I think we´re past the model T & self-starting autos leaning toward automatic transmissions,.
Whatever,... imagine a battery same size as yours with 4x the capacity that charges in 5 minutes at 1/2 the weight. That technology
already exists if we can get industry behind it, & stop big oil from killing it or worse, making certain we pay thru the nose to use it!

 

[john peck]

J.R., I have book marked 4 page from ´New Atlas´ on signifigant advances in battery technology, greater capacity, faster charging,
lighter,more organic & eco-friendly. I think we´re past the model T & self-starting autos leaning toward automatic transmissions,.
Whatever,... imagine a battery same size as yours with 4x the capacity that charges in 5 minutes at 1/2 the weight. That technology
already exists if we can get industry behind it, & stop big oil from killing it or worse, making certain we pay thru the nose to use it!

 

[reed scott]

Electric powered vehicles have always been a great technology. It was always the transported power source that was the problem. It appears we are on the verge of transcending that limitation. We already are to a substantial degree. The oil companies nor anyone else can subvert this progress ascendancy. Most probably they are investing. Petrol power was great for many decades but only because it was cheap and plentiful. We are coming to the close of the petroleum age. HOWEVER ... we MUST now start creating electrical power in massive amounts and cheaply. Fusion. Even fission. There is no alternative.

 

[Deleted member 4210]

The thread and the article are about the complications of dealing with lithium-ion batteries. There are real challenges that can be solved. Electric vehicles are here to stay. Better and safer batteries will be developed.

Internal combustion engines at one time had what was called 'total loss oiling systems'. An oiler would drip oil constantly on the moving parts, some would burn away and the rest would simply drip onto the roadway. These days 5 quarts of quality synthetic oil can last 5000, 7000+ miles. And a 10 year old car today is more efficient and cleaner than a brand new car was in 1980.

Some think we aren't making progress, but a little observation and some knowledge of history shows a very different story. Electric vehicles and batteries we have now are probably in the Model T stage. Model T's were damned fine vehicles in their day. Cleaner, more efficient and very reliable compared to previous generations. Much more affordable too. EV's were toys for the rich, just a few short years ago. Now you can buy a quality ebike for $2k or so.

We are making progress! We are doing better today than we were yesterday. Cleaner, safer and more affordable.

Except for how environmentally toxic the current li-ion batteries are to the environment. We need to advance beyond the current chemistry's into something that lasts considerably longer, and has far fewer toxic materials. Lithium-ion is arguably (hopefully) a 'bridge' to get us there, already demonstrating the promise of more energy density, reasonable cost, and being able to be used in everything from power tools to ebikes to cars than we ever had before (i.e. lead acid, Nicad, Nickel Metal Hydride and so on).

BUT we need to do this a LOT differently, and do it without further destroying the planet. If you are at all interested in more of HOW we can do this, I strongly encourage reading a book called 'Cradle to Cradle' by William McDonough and Michael Braungart. (It just might help 'plant some innovation seeds' to be 'fertilized' by your own creative 'e-bike' and environmentally friendly mind. (you know you have it in you - ebikes are more than just about FUN, and helping you out. You know this to be true in your gut and even if its only merely at a subconscious level for you.) The book is an older book, but the concepts and specific practices are more relevant today, than they ever have been. And we are STILL a long long way away, from getting there. E-bikes have those key traits, that will likely allow it to become one of many very popular societal 'enablers' to help us get toward a more sustainable planet. My own business is named "Sustainability Innovations LLC" and was founded on finding practical and realistic ways to encourage people toward more sustainable practices in their living, and their own health. Deleted Member 4210 is simply one of a couple "DBA's" under that LLC. Sustainability is about a lot more than just recycling paper, or the goofy things that are decades old, that make schools, businesses, and universities 'feel good' about the way they are acting in everyday life.

As the book subtitle says we need to Re-make the Way we Make Things. This includes ESPECIALLY these new technologies that demonstrate promise to more efficiency, less pollution, etc but it needs to be a cradle-to-cradle solution where we 'do no harm.' The end life (or 'disposal' ) must be thought of FIRST before you ever finish the product you are designing and making. It takes incredible foresight, and innovation to do this. Many corporations have sought to embark on this. But it is a proverbial drop in the ocean in terms of actual practice. P.S. I met one of the authors of this book back in 2010 a few years before I founded my company. Incredibly engaging speaker, and quite positive on our future. Very refreshing perspective, and far away from the 'gloom and doom', and much more about problem solving with practical and very doable solutions.

 

[J.R.]

J.R., I have book marked 4 page from ´New Atlas´ on signifigant advances in battery technology, greater capacity, faster charging,
lighter,more organic & eco-friendly. I think we´re past the model T & self-starting autos leaning toward automatic transmissions,.
Whatever,... imagine a battery same size as yours with 4x the capacity that charges in 5 minutes at 1/2 the weight. That technology
already exists if we can get industry behind it, & stop big oil from killing it or worse, making certain we pay thru the nose to use it!

I'm not so sure we are past the Model T stage yet. Technology probably, usefulness to man not really close. With the Model T came an affordable platform that replaced horse drawn wagons for farm and industry. It also replaced many steam tractors.

This time of year is a reminder to me just how limited electric vehicles are. I live on a country road, surrounded by farmland and probably don't have a hundred vehicles a day pass by normally. I do have a milk tanker pass by everyday all year long. But in the fall we have gangs of combine harvesters rolling down the roads daily with their support vehicles. We also have grain hauling tractor trailers and manure fertilizer tankers everyday. The past week we probably had 100 tankers drive by. Not to mention all the pickup trucks that are actually used for hauling. We aren't close to replacing these type of vehicles with anything electric. For now electric is strictly for people hauling. Anything big would be extremely heavy and prohibitively expensive. I don't even know if the roads and bridges in the country could handle it.

We could possibly use some diesel-electric hybrids like trains use for some heavy equipment. Those aren't cheap or clean either. They have their own set of challenges.

We've come a long way and people should celebrate it, but we have a long way to go too. Everything you see in the media is so dire, as though we haven't made any progress. We're getting there, closer everyday. Oil and gas aren't going anywhere for a very long time.

 

[J.R.]

Except for how environmentally toxic the current li-ion batteries are to the environment

I agree. Going back to when I started the thread and posted the article, there are some serious dirty truths that need to be addressed. No one in mainstream media even reports on it. The way it's discussed you'd think there are two switches and all we need to do is turn the old one off and turn the new one on. It's complicated, costly and a little dirty. It also takes time.

 

[john peck]

Except for how environmentally toxic the current li-ion batteries are to the environment. We need to advance beyond the current chemistry's into something that lasts considerably longer, and has far fewer toxic materials. Lithium-ion is arguably (hopefully) a 'bridge' to get us there, already demonstrating the promise of more energy density, reasonable cost, and being able to be used in everything from power tools to ebikes to cars than we ever had before (i.e. lead acid, Nicad, Nickel Metal Hydride and so on).

BUT we need to do this a LOT differently, and do it without further destroying the planet. If you are at all interested in more of HOW we can do this, I strongly encourage reading a book called 'Cradle to Cradle' by William McDonough and Michael Braungart. (It just might help 'plant some innovation seeds' to be 'fertilized' by your own creative 'e-bike' and environmentally friendly mind. (you know you have it in you - ebikes are more than just about FUN, and helping you out. You know this to be true in your gut and even if its only merely at a subconscious level for you.) The book is an older book, but the concepts and specific practices are more relevant today, than they ever have been. And we are STILL a long long way away, from getting there. E-bikes have those key traits, that will likely allow it to become one of many very popular societal 'enablers' to help us get toward a more sustainable planet. My own business is named "Sustainability Innovations LLC" and was founded on finding practical and realistic ways to encourage people toward more sustainable practices in their living, and their own health. Deleted Member 4210 is simply one of a couple "DBA's" under that LLC. Sustainability is about a lot more than just recycling paper, or the goofy things that are decades old, that make schools, businesses, and universities 'feel good' about the way they are acting in everyday life.

As the book subtitle says we need to Re-make the Way we Make Things. This includes ESPECIALLY these new technologies that demonstrate promise to more efficiency, less pollution, etc but it needs to be a cradle-to-cradle solution where we 'do no harm.' The end life (or 'disposal' ) must be thought of FIRST before you ever finish the product you are designing and making. It takes incredible foresight, and innovation to do this. Many corporations have sought to embark on this. But it is a proverbial drop in the ocean in terms of actual practice. P.S. I met one of the authors of this book back in 2010 a few years before I founded my company. Incredibly engaging speaker, and quite positive on our future. Very refreshing perspective, and far away from the 'gloom and doom', and much more about problem solving with practical and very doable solutions.

Ya got me, guess I´m drivin´ a model T. Still beats walkin´. . At this stage I am grateful for even the slightest compromise from
the establishment.

 

[Gordon71]

This sentence says it all: "Recycling is expensive, partly because of the many components and the complex dismantling of the different traction batteries. The revenue from the sale of the recycled materials doesn't outweigh the costs of collection, dismantling and recycling."

It doesn't say it CAN'T be recycled it says it's expensive to recycle. In other words money wins and the planet loses. Nothing new about that.

 

[FlatSix911]

Except for how environmentally toxic the current Li-ion batteries are to the environment. We need to advance beyond the current chemistry into something that lasts considerably longer and has far fewer toxic materials. Lithium-ion is arguably (hopefully) a 'bridge' to get us there, already demonstrating the promise of more energy density, reasonable cost, and being able to be used in everything from power tools to ebikes to cars than we ever had before (i.e. lead-acid, Nicad, Nickel Metal Hydride and so on).

BUT we need to do this a LOT differently and do it without further destroying the planet. If you are at all interested in more of HOW we can do this, I strongly encourage reading a book called 'Cradle to Cradle' by William McDonough and Michael Braungart. (It just might help 'plant some innovation seeds' to be 'fertilized' by your own creative 'e-bike' and environmentally friendly mind. (you know you have it in you - ebikes are more than just about FUN and helping you out. You know this to be true in your gut and even if its only merely at a subconscious level for you.) The book is an older book, but the concepts and specific practices are more relevant today than they ever have been. And we are STILL a long long way away, from getting there. E-bikes have those key traits, that will likely allow it to become one of many very popular societal 'enablers' to help us get toward a more sustainable planet. My own business is named "Sustainability Innovations LLC" and was founded on finding practical and realistic ways to encourage people toward more sustainable practices in their living, and their own health. Deleted Member 4210 is simply one of a couple "DBA's" under that LLC. Sustainability is about a lot more than just recycling paper or the goofy things that are decades old, that make schools, businesses, and universities 'feel good' about the way they are acting in everyday life.

As the book subtitle says we need to Re-make the Way we Make Things. This includes ESPECIALLY these new technologies that demonstrate promise to more efficiency, less pollution, etc but it needs to be a cradle-to-cradle solution where we 'do no harm.' The end life (or 'disposal' ) must be thought of FIRST before you ever finish the product you are designing and making. It takes incredible foresight, and innovation to do this. Many corporations have sought to embark on this. But it is a proverbial drop in the ocean in terms of actual practice. P.S. I met one of the authors of this book back in 2010 a few years before I founded my company. Incredibly engaging speaker, and quite positive on our future. Very refreshing perspective, and far away from the 'gloom and doom', and much more about problem-solving with practical and very doable solutions.

Great Book... I read it for the first time in 2002 and it's worth reading again.

Cradle to Cradle: Remaking the Way We Make Things - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[FlatSix911]

I'm not so sure we are past the Model T stage yet. Technology probably, usefulness to man not really close. With the Model T came an affordable platform that replaced horse-drawn wagons for farm and industry. It also replaced many steam tractors.

This time of year is a reminder to me just how limited electric vehicles are. I live on a country road, surrounded by farmland, and probably don't have a hundred vehicles a day pass by normally. I do have a milk tanker pass by everyday all year long. But in the fall we have gangs of combine harvesters rolling down the roads daily with their support vehicles. We also have grain hauling tractor-trailers and manure fertilizer tankers everyday. The past week we probably had 100 tankers drive by. Not to mention all the pickup trucks that are actually used for hauling. We aren't close to replacing these types of vehicles with anything electric. For now electric is strictly for people hauling. Anything big would be extremely heavy and prohibitively expensive. I don't even know if the roads and bridges in the country could handle it.

We could possibly use some diesel-electric hybrids like trains use for some heavy equipment. Those aren't cheap or clean either. They have their own set of challenges. We've come a long way and people should celebrate it, but we have a long way to go too. Everything you see in the media is so dire, as though we haven't made any progress. We're getting there, closer everyday. Oil and gas aren't going anywhere for a very long time.

I've been driving an EV for over a decade and you might be surprised by how far we have come already.

Elon is moving the entire industry forward on the path to sustainable transportation including trucks and long haul tractor trailers.

 

[Deleted member 4210]

I've been driving an EV for over a decade and you might be surprised by how far we have come already.

Elon is moving the entire industry forward on the path to sustainable transportation including trucks and long haul tractor trailers.

Elon has been inspirational for sure. But he alone, can't change all the factors against the evolving and still largely nascent industry. The big challenges that remain, in no particular order are:
Battery raw materials being in plentiful enough supply that also aren't toxic, and do no harm to the planet to mine and recover while also providing the energy density required to make ev's not only practical for the masses but most importantly, affordable for the masses; a power grid designed to support more than a mere 10 percent of total vehicle population, which experts from EPRI have known since the year 2000, but the industry at large has done next to nothing about, since it's over $5 trillion short on just getting the grid back to being reliable enough to where it can reliably provide electric for everyday businesses and households even without EV's. This remains a major issue nationwide, as more than 75 percent of our power grid infrastructure is beyond its original design life by decades in many cases. And since we deregulated in the early 2000's, there is zero incentive for any utility or investing entity to do anything more than maintain status quo and merely get by with what's in or on the ground. There are no new infrastructure improvements , and just way over due small percent of total replacements going on. That is just the grid itself. Power generation is even worse, with the only new generation being natural gas combined cycle to address peak demand, or replacement of coal plants, and such a tiny percent of total generation going to wind or solar as to be utterly absurd, it's a joke. And then these utilities speak of battery storage to addresses milliseconds of outages ? What planet are they living on ? And the only country building any meaningful amount of new generation right now, and going forward is China. And it's nearly all coal. So they are laughing at Americans trying to 'save the planet' from emissions by using solar and EV's that are made from materials and parts mostly coming from their country since we got rid of most of our manufacturing years ago, giving it up to them. That also includes most of the materials and components manufacturing for the entire power grid and for the power plants themselves. They have us by the short hairs big time. And yet we believe we can go EV here for cars in any meaningful amount here in the US? Lol. It won't be that way unless China 'cooperates.' ask them (the CCP) their definition of 'cooperation'. And then does so without holding us hostage on many levels ??? And so the last issue ( and most thorny) is big oil and the major car companies who are all basically barely doing enough to massage public perception to induce us into a stupor, and making us think they are serious about EV's; and they even let us all totally believe they are getting serious, bc Musk/Tesla is leaving them in the dust. Who are we kidding ?

Ebikes have a far better chance of becoming entirely mainstream, than EV's (cars) do, and those are very very very long odds as a number of Americans seem to love their cars more than they do their own families (ok I'm kidding a little there) and most would never dream of riding any bike in weather that wasn't at least 70 f and sunny. We ebike enthusiasts are a teeny tiny minority of the population.

 

[FlatSix911]

Good analysis of the current geo/political environment for alternative energy and vehicles.
China is definitely taking us for a ride and the situation will probably get worse over time.

One additional factor that has not been considered... future government mandates.

California will ban sale of new ICE cars in 2035. Why not sooner?

California Governor Gavin Newsom has just announced a ban on the sale of new gasoline-powered vehicles starting in 2035. The...

electrek.co

 

[john peck]

Good analysis of the current geo/political environment for alternative energy and vehicles.
China is definitely taking us for a ride and the situation will probably get worse over time.

One additional factor that has not been considered... future government mandates.

California will ban sale of new ICE cars in 2035. Why not sooner?

California Governor Gavin Newsom has just announced a ban on the sale of new gasoline-powered vehicles starting in 2035. The...

electrek.co

I have, on a couple occasions, experienced rush hour gridlock in a large urban setting. Why would anyone
want to put themselves thru that day after day??? Staggered shifts! Are we lemmings? Whatś wrong with people?