SUPPORT vs POWER settings in Eco, Trail and Turbo modes

[Rusto]

I just acquired a 2023 Turbo Vado 5.0 SL. I've been watching YouTubes and reading my manuals and think I’ve finally got some clarity on the difference between SUPPORT and POWER. So here's my current take-The maximum output of the motor is 320 watts which is 0.43 hp and a professional cyclist can generate up to 2.0 hp. For the sake of the discussion if I set the TURBO mode to 100%/100%, the motor generates 0.4 hp and I am peddling at optimal (not maximal) effort (0.4 hp). That (hypothetically) translates to 0.8 horsepower at the rear wheel. I understand if I pedal harder, e.g., 2.0 hp, I would get 2.4 hp at the rear wheel, but only 0.4 hp will come from the motor. I assume If I set TRAIL mode at 50%/100% and I pedal at the optimal level (0.2 hp) I’ll only get 0.2 hp out of the motor, but can get more hp at rear wheel with increased effort by me. Now where I’m a little fuzzy is if I had set the TRAIL mode at 50%/50% and pedal at optimal force (0.2 hp) the engine is limited to 0.2 hp by 50% SUPPORT, but what does 50% POWER do? Is it like a governor on an engine where I now can only get 0.1 hp from the motor? Seems the best settings on the 3 modes would be Eco 15/100, Trail 50/100 and Turbo 100/100.
Any clarification would be greatly appreciated.

 

[GuruUno]

Stefan is the expert for answering questions like this. I'm already dizzy

 

[mschwett]

I just acquired a 2023 Turbo Vado 5.0 SL. I've been watching YouTubes and reading my manuals and think I’ve finally got some clarity on the difference between SUPPORT and POWER. So here's my current take-The maximum output of the motor is 320 watts which is 0.43 hp and a professional cyclist can generate up to 2.0 hp. For the sake of the discussion if I set the TURBO mode to 100%/100%, the motor generates 0.4 hp and I am peddling at optimal (not maximal) effort (0.4 hp). That (hypothetically) translates to 0.8 horsepower at the rear wheel. I understand if I pedal harder, e.g., 2.0 hp, I would get 2.4 hp at the rear wheel, but only 0.4 hp will come from the motor. I assume If I set TRAIL mode at 50%/100% and I pedal at the optimal level (0.2 hp) I’ll only get 0.2 hp out of the motor, but can get more hp at rear wheel with increased effort by me. Now where I’m a little fuzzy is if I had set the TRAIL mode at 50%/50% and pedal at optimal force (0.2 hp) the engine is limited to 0.2 hp by 50% SUPPORT, but what does 50% POWER do? Is it like a governor on an engine where I now can only get 0.1 hp from the motor? Seems the best settings on the 3 modes would be Eco 15/100, Trail 50/100 and Turbo 100/100.
Any clarification would be greatly appreciated.

so, a few comments.

the for the SL 1.1 motor, the maximum electrical draw of the motor is 300 watts (not 320 - the battery is 320wh.) the motor is about 80% efficient, so the actual mechanical power is around 240w at the motor’s full power.

now, the bike has a 2x “support factor” which means the maximum power draw is twice the rider’s human power. at 100% power, if you pedal with 150w of human power the motor will draw 300w of electrical power and add around 240w of mechanical power to your 150w. that’s how it would behave at 100/100, up the maximum 300w electrical draw of the motor. so, you pedal with 100w, motor draws 200w. etc.

the two numbers in the settings reduce the motor output. the “support” changes the 2x ratio. at 50%, the 2.0x is cut in half to 1.0x, so if you pedal with 150w, instead of doubling your power it just matches it with 150w draw from the battery, for around 120w effective watts added to your 150.

if you cut the support to 20%, now it’s 20% of 2.0x, or .4x. pedal with 200w and the motor will draw 80w of power. now you’re doing most of the work!

the second number in the settings is a cap. regardless of the support ratio, setting the second number to, say, 50% will reduce the maximum assist to half the 300w peak draw. so, if your bike is set to 100/50, and you pedal with 150w, the assist ratio would suggest a 300w draw from the motor, but it would be capped at 150w by the 50% max power.

it’s a very flexible and natural seeming system, and adjusting the two numbers gives different results. the critical aspect of the second number is that without it, pedaling harder drains the battery faster and reduces your range because you’re going faster, which exponentially increases drag. so for maximum range, pedal hard and turn the second number way down.

 

[Rusto]

so, a few comments.

the for the SL 1.1 motor, the maximum electrical draw of the motor is 300 watts (not 320 - the battery is 320wh.) the motor is about 80% efficient, so the actual mechanical power is around 240w at the motor’s full power.

now, the bike has a 2x “support factor” which means the maximum power draw is twice the rider’s human power. at 100% power, if you pedal with 150w of human power the motor will draw 300w of electrical power and add around 240w of mechanical power to your 150w. that’s how it would behave at 100/100, up the maximum 300w electrical draw of the motor. so, you pedal with 100w, motor draws 200w. etc.

the two numbers in the settings reduce the motor output. the “support” changes the 2x ratio. at 50%, the 2.0x is cut in half to 1.0x, so if you pedal with 150w, instead of doubling your power it just matches it with 150w draw from the battery, for around 120w effective watts added to your 150.

if you cut the support to 20%, now it’s 20% of 2.0x, or .4x. pedal with 200w and the motor will draw 80w of power. now you’re doing most of the work!

the second number in the settings is a cap. regardless of the support ratio, setting the second number to, say, 50% will reduce the maximum assist to half the 300w peak draw. so, if your bike is set to 100/50, and you pedal with 150w, the assist ratio would suggest a 300w draw from the motor, but it would be capped at 150w by the 50% max power.

it’s a very flexible and natural seeming system, and adjusting the two numbers gives different results. the critical aspect of the second number is that without it, pedaling harder drains the battery faster and reduces your range because you’re going faster, which exponentially increases drag. so for maximum range, pedal hard and turn the second number way down.

Fantastic! Thanks so very much for the detailed explanation.

 

[mfgrep]

After hundreds of miles set to default power settings I finally began playing with the tuning.

Setting eco to 25/100 is fun and may prevent you from ever switching to sport or turbo.... But it uses a lot of battery.

My custom tuning is currently eco 25/45, sport 50/70, and turbo 75/100.

I ride for fitness and recreation. I typically ride with the motor off for 50%+ any/all rides. I use the assist to predominantly enable me to not get wiped out on hills so that I can get more miles/time in the saddle..... so more hours of cardio per week. I also use assist to get through high traffic situations more easily. To each their own on this methodology.

For that < 50% of the time that my motor is assisting me..... typically I'm in eco 80% of the time, sport 17%, and turbo 3%. I typically ride about 100 miles per week and seem to charge about once per 100 miles. On default tuning I believe that I needed to charge slightly sooner.... But with all the variables it is hard to discern.

 

[mschwett]

…

I ride for fitness and recreation. I typically ride with the motor off for 50%+ any/all rides. I use the assist to predominantly enable me to not get wiped out on hills so that I can get more miles/time in the saddle..... so more hours of cardio per week. I also use assist to get through high traffic situations more easily. To each their own on this methodology.….

this is exactly how i use my creo! flatten hills and minimize the motor vehicle <-> bicycle speed differential.

 

[mfgrep]

this is exactly how i use my creo! flatten hills and minimize the motor vehicle <-> bicycle speed differential.

There are days that I wish I had a Creo. And a Vado 5.0. and a Gazelle. And a cargo bike. Lol

 

[Stefan Mikes]

so, a few comments.

Thank you @mschwett for providing @Rusto with your excellent answer! (I was on an SL ride for the whole day on Sunday, and then had to recover!)

Setting eco to 25/100 is fun and may prevent you from ever switching to sport or turbo.... But it uses a lot of battery.

Your statement is correct for a healthy person with "normal" leg power. It might not be true for a person with low leg power.

I rode my Vado SL with the system totally off for 4.4 km (2.7 mi) yesterday, and the trip involved a single overpass. My average speed was around 16 km/h (10 mph). That could illustrate how weak my legs are because of my ailments/medications, and that's why I need the electric bike assistance.

In my specific case, the 30/100% SL assistance is identical to 50/50% regarding the battery use. However, the former setting allowed me riding together with traditional recreational cyclists for 73 km (45 mi) in an area of undulating hills without ever changing the assistance mode! (On ascents, I had to downshift and just pedal harder).

It all depends on the rider!

 

[Rusto]

so, a few comments.

the for the SL 1.1 motor, the maximum electrical draw of the motor is 300 watts (not 320 - the battery is 320wh.) the motor is about 80% efficient, so the actual mechanical power is around 240w at the motor’s full power.

now, the bike has a 2x “support factor” which means the maximum power draw is twice the rider’s human power. at 100% power, if you pedal with 150w of human power the motor will draw 300w of electrical power and add around 240w of mechanical power to your 150w. that’s how it would behave at 100/100, up the maximum 300w electrical draw of the motor. so, you pedal with 100w, motor draws 200w. etc.

the two numbers in the settings reduce the motor output. the “support” changes the 2x ratio. at 50%, the 2.0x is cut in half to 1.0x, so if you pedal with 150w, instead of doubling your power it just matches it with 150w draw from the battery, for around 120w effective watts added to your 150.

if you cut the support to 20%, now it’s 20% of 2.0x, or .4x. pedal with 200w and the motor will draw 80w of power. now you’re doing most of the work!

the second number in the settings is a cap. regardless of the support ratio, setting the second number to, say, 50% will reduce the maximum assist to half the 300w peak draw. so, if your bike is set to 100/50, and you pedal with 150w, the assist ratio would suggest a 300w draw from the motor, but it would be capped at 150w by the 50% max power.

it’s a very flexible and natural seeming system, and adjusting the two numbers gives different results. the critical aspect of the second number is that without it, pedaling harder drains the battery faster and reduces your range because you’re going faster, which exponentially increases drag. so for maximum range, pedal hard and turn the second number way down.

so, a few comments.

the for the SL 1.1 motor, the maximum electrical draw of the motor is 300 watts (not 320 - the battery is 320wh.) the motor is about 80% efficient, so the actual mechanical power is around 240w at the motor’s full power.

now, the bike has a 2x “support factor” which means the maximum power draw is twice the rider’s human power. at 100% power, if you pedal with 150w of human power the motor will draw 300w of electrical power and add around 240w of mechanical power to your 150w. that’s how it would behave at 100/100, up the maximum 300w electrical draw of the motor. so, you pedal with 100w, motor draws 200w. etc.

the two numbers in the settings reduce the motor output. the “support” changes the 2x ratio. at 50%, the 2.0x is cut in half to 1.0x, so if you pedal with 150w, instead of doubling your power it just matches it with 150w draw from the battery, for around 120w effective watts added to your 150.

if you cut the support to 20%, now it’s 20% of 2.0x, or .4x. pedal with 200w and the motor will draw 80w of power. now you’re doing most of the work!

the second number in the settings is a cap. regardless of the support ratio, setting the second number to, say, 50% will reduce the maximum assist to half the 300w peak draw. so, if your bike is set to 100/50, and you pedal with 150w, the assist ratio would suggest a 300w draw from the motor, but it would be capped at 150w by the 50% max power.

it’s a very flexible and natural seeming system, and adjusting the two numbers gives different results. the critical aspect of the second number is that without it, pedaling harder drains the battery faster and reduces your range because you’re going faster, which exponentially increases drag. so for maximum range, pedal hard and turn the second number way down.

I completed my maiden ride on my Turbo Vado 5.0 SL last evening. It was an 11 mile loop about 75% asphalt and 25% hard pack gravel. Road is hilly with several somewhat challenging longer climbs. I set the 3 modes Support%/Power% at ECO-15/35, SPORT-50/50 and TURBO-100/100. I rode 3/4’s of the loop with no power. When I hit the first challenging hill I downshifted until I decided I wanted some support. Hit Eco for the first 1/3 of the remaining climb and Sport for final 2/3's. It was the perfect amount of assistance as I was standing peddling as I neared the crest. At the top I shut off the power until the next hill and repeated the same cycle. After that I shut off the power, so may have used as much battery for lights as I did for peddling assistance; battery at start of ride 100%, at end of ride 92%. Based on my understanding of the Support and Power settings with Power I had limited Eco to 35% of 240 watts, i.e., 84 watts, and the Support setting gave me twice what I generated up to 15% of the 84 watts, i.e., 12.6 watts; therefore, I could have generated essentially the same motor output and battery energy consumption by leaving Power at 100% and setting Support at 5%. If my interpretation is correct I guess I don't see the point of both Support and Power settings. Am I missing something?
Aside from trying to learn the various settings the bike was absolutely fantastic to ride and has provided me with exactly what I wanted, a little help on the steeper longer hills, but still enabling me to get a good workout.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Your current motor power limits are 84 (105), 120 (150), and 240 (300) W per each mode (mechanical power/electrical power draw), that is, the motor will never exceed the assistance as specified by the Max Motor Power.

However, the actual support is variable and it only depends on your actual leg power input at a given moment.

Let us assume your leg input on the climb was constant 200 W:

• Eco: 200 * 0.15 * 1.8 = 54 W mechanical assist (84 W limit)
• Sport: 200 * 0.50 * 1.8 = 221 W (requested assist). Your motor was giving you a constant assistance of 120 W mechanical as it was capped at 120 W by the Max Motor Power.

Please divide the mechanical support generated by the motor by 0.8 to get the actual battery power draw.

15% Assist is a very low setting (you were riding almost solely on your pedal power). If you used 100% Max Motor Power, nothing would have really changed for the 15% Assist in terms of the motor assistance and the battery use.

My legs are far weaker than yours. I am capable to do long trips on the 30/100 % setting as the motor is really working at that setting for me.

I think had you used your Sport setting for the whole ascent, you would have never needed to stand on the pedals

 

[Calcoaster]

I completed my maiden ride on my Turbo Vado 5.0 SL last evening. It was an 11 mile loop about 75% asphalt and 25% hard pack gravel. Road is hilly with several somewhat challenging longer climbs. I set the 3 modes Support%/Power% at ECO-15/35, SPORT-50/50 and TURBO-100/100. I rode 3/4’s of the loop with no power. When I hit the first challenging hill I downshifted until I decided I wanted some support. Hit Eco for the first 1/3 of the remaining climb and Sport for final 2/3's. It was the perfect amount of assistance as I was standing peddling as I neared the crest. At the top I shut off the power until the next hill and repeated the same cycle. After that I shut off the power, so may have used as much battery for lights as I did for peddling assistance; battery at start of ride 100%, at end of ride 92%. Based on my understanding of the Support and Power settings with Power I had limited Eco to 35% of 240 watts, i.e., 84 watts, and the Support setting gave me twice what I generated up to 15% of the 84 watts, i.e., 12.6 watts; therefore, I could have generated essentially the same motor output and battery energy consumption by leaving Power at 100% and setting Support at 5%. If my interpretation is correct I guess I don't see the point of both Support and Power settings. Am I missing something?
Aside from trying to learn the various settings the bike was absolutely fantastic to ride and has provided me with exactly what I wanted, a little help on the steeper longer hills, but still enabling me to get a good workout.

You’re right about the Power setting, but the Support setting gives you a percentage of your own input power as motor power. So if you were climbing the hill, putting 250 watts of your leg power into the cranks, your bike at 15% support would be adding roughly .15 X 250 X 2 (for the 2X factor of the SL motor) = 75 watts. That’s still under the 35% power setting you chose so your bike would have been powering up the hill with your 250 plus the motor’s 75 = 325W.

 

[Rusto]

You’re right about the Power setting, but the Support setting gives you a percentage of your own input power as motor power. So if you were climbing the hill, putting 250 watts of your leg power into the cranks, your bike at 15% support would be adding roughly .15 X 250 X 2 (for the 2X factor of the SL motor) = 75 watts. That’s still under the 35% power setting you chose so your bike would have been powering up the hill with your 250 plus the motor’s 75 = 325W.

My understanding is that the Power setting basically governs the available total wattage of the motor. So had I set Power at 100% in Eco mode I would have had a potential of receiving 240 watts of assistance, but at 35% (240 x 0.35) all I had was the potential of 84 watts; as though I had purchased a Turbo Vado that had a motor only capable of a maximum of 84 watts.
Now my understanding of the 15% Support setting is it offered me 2x my pedal wattage input up to a maximum of 15% of 84 watts; therefore, if I was pedaling at 200 watts the Support would have been maxed out at (84 x 0.15) 12.6 watts. In essence total power to the rear wheel would have been 212.6 watts. Is this wrong?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Incorrect.

You are correct the 35% motor power cap makes your Vado SL a potentially 84 W e-bike.

The Assist 15% (0.15) multiplied by 1.8 (Boost Factor) multiplied by your current leg power creates an assistance request that could be met or returned with the capped motor power.

Your 200 W of pedalling power creates the request to assist you at 15% with 0.15 * 1.8 * 200 = 54 W. The request will be met. The rear wheel will get 200 + 54 = 254 W.

There also is some confusion. 1.8x is for the mechanical assistance but 2x is for the electrical battery draw, both expressed in W. The motor loses 20% or more of the battery power as a heat loss.

 

[Rusto]

Not.
You are correct the 35% motor power cap makes your Vado SL a potentially 84 W e-bike.

The Assist 15% (0.15) multiplied by 1.8 multiplied by your current leg power creates an assistance request that could be met or returned with the capped motor power.

Your 200 W of pedalling power creates the request to assist you at 15% with 0.15 * 1.8 * 200 = 54 W. The request will be met. The rear wheel will get 200 + 54 = 254 W.

There also is some confusion. 1.8x is for the mechanical assistance but 2x is for the electrical battery draw, both expressed in W. The motor loses 20% or more of the battery power as a heat loss.

Got it. Thanks so much.
PS-Stefan you are wrong, your legs are undoubtedly stronger than mine. I'm in my mid 70’s. Long steep hills have always been my Achilles' heel and with age have greatly diminished my joy of cycling. This Turbo Vado has turned the clock back 40 years.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Don't have a Specialized ebike but interested in the way different manufacturers implement pedal assist — including the adjustability and documentation they provide.

Specialized's 2-parameter support/power interface for assist level adjustment seems like a reasonable way to go about it in a power-sensing ebike.

Q: How well does Specialized document it? In the bike's printed manual? Online? Nowhere?

 

[mfgrep]

Q: How well does Specialized document it? In the bike's printed manual? Online? Nowhere?

Not very well. There are a few bits floating about the interwebz like this https://supportdev.specialized.com/home/turbokenevo/features-benefits-range/support-and-peak-power?scroll-translations:language-key=en

or like this https://support.specialized.com/home/missioncontrol/en/using-mission-control/tune-your-bike

Stefan Mikes provides vastly better explanation(s)....perhaps he should be employed at Specialized in the publications department?

There are some other good explanations floating around the cloud from various Riders. None of the published blogs or instructions can really match actually riding the turbo bicycle at these various settings to truly get a 'feel' for what is going on. I am still experimenting.....and learning how these various settings effect my workout quality and battery range. All fun stuff really.

After riding default 35/35, 65/65, and 100/100 for over 500 miles....I have now ridden the most recent 250 miles predominantly using 25/45, 50/70, and 80/100. I believe my battery life may be very slightly superior and this setup further seems to provide better rewards for my efforts. I quite like the 'reward' part given that I ride for fitness (and fun) purposes. I charged to 100% and have ridden 57 miles this week and I have 48% battery life remaining.

This bit from Specialized is of some interest:
PEAK POWER
This feature refers to the power output by the motor for each Support Mode. This can be set up to 100% for all Support Modes. If Peak Power is set to 100% for all Support Modes, the harder you pedal, the more assist you'll get in each Support Mode. For example, if a Support Mode is set at 35%, with Peak Power set at 100%, you can still achieve 100% motor output by pedaling with more effort and a higher rider torque. If Peak Power is set at less than 100%, you'll limit the amount of power that the motor delivers and this will create an artificial ceiling that cannot be compensated for with leg power. Lower Peak Power improves range and allows for a greater differentiation between the Support Modes.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

PS-Stefan you are wrong, your legs are undoubtedly stronger than mine.

Rusto, the leg ailment is not dependent on the age... I read your report (especially the parts on unassisted riding and starting the climb in dramatically low assistance) and could instantly compare that with my performance (which Specialized e-bikes do measure). For me, the minimum SL assistance on the flat is the 30/100%, and my average speed unassisted is only 10 mph, which I can maintain for 3 miles only.

Q: How well does Specialized document it? In the bike's printed manual? Online? Nowhere?

There are a plethora of YT videos from Specialized University. Here, Jan Talavasek, the head of Specialized Turbo Division (Switzerland) explains the matters in the simplest terms, not talking any numbers:

I have now ridden the most recent 250 miles predominantly using 25/45, 50/70, and 80/100

As I really need assistance, and the SL motor is not the strongest one, my SL settings are:

• A Traditional Cyclist ECO: 30/100%. The range with a single Range Extender is in the Gran Fondo domain (130 km). The mode allows climbing mild hills.
• Workout ECO: 35/100%. A little bit faster, comfortable for pedalling, rewarding the effort. Range with a RE: 116 km.
• Lazy Stefan Long Ride ECO: 55/55%. Comfortable pedalling for 116 km with a single RE.
• Gravel Cycling Noob Girl ECO: 60/60%. Allowing riding with average not very strong gravel cyclists. If a healthy person cannot muster the power equivalent to this mode for 100 km, they should not try gravel group rides at all!
• Regular Gravel Cycling SPORT: 80/80%.
• Trying To Catch Up With The Gravel Cycling Performance Riders: 100/100% Turbo. If you cannot catch up with them, you need a stronger motor

 

[Stefan Mikes]

@mfgrep: I request you get your average leg power from a Mission Control or Specialized App ride record and tell me! How old are you?

 

[mfgrep]

• Trying To Catch Up With The Gravel Cycling Performance Riders: 100/100% Turbo. If you cannot catch up with them, you need a stronger motor

Can you catch up to those guys using 100% Stefan? If not....cough cough....you must be eating a load of their dust on gravel!

Last week I drove to a trail/route that I'd wanted to explore more thoroughly. I had been there previously but on a busy weekend and with two older rider/friends who travel quite slowly.
So early last Tuesday I parked at one end of this 13.5 mile route planning to travel to its end and return to the car....27 miles total.

The trail was relatively quiet. Sure there was a walker, stroller, dog here and there....but much quieter than on the weekend. I was cruising along in my own little world....I'd guess about 16-17mph....but I really am not a big time tracker. I just enjoy the ride and the workout whatever it may be. Suddenly ZOOOM I was passed by 3 analog roadies who were packed tightly and deep into a loud conversation between them. They were going FAST. So fast in fact that I wouldn't wish to navigate this trail at those speeds....forget the stamina and strength....I'm not sure I could handle a bicycle that fast on this path. So I bumped up my speed, of course, in a futile attempt to stay with them. No way. Impossible. Those guys were BEASTS.

 

[mfgrep]

@mfgrep: I request you get your average leg power from a Mission Control or Specialized App ride record and tell me! How old are you?

Hmmm....I'm not sure how to do this? I do track my rides (BLevo) but I almost never open the Specialized or Mission Control apps.
I am 52 years old.

Today's ride per BLevo....if this is what you are looking for: Total Biker Energy Wh = 162.2. Wh Ride 239.2Wh, Biker 67.8% 162.2Wh, Battery 32.2% 77Wh.

I only know by 'feels' lol, however, today's ride I did use a bit more assist than I normally do. It was windy.....I was frequently in traffic.....etc. Those numbers seem fairly typical for me....but they lean towards a day where I use more assist than 'typical'.