SuperDelite 2020 Rohloff HS Issues & Support

[Alaskan]

I am feeling both angry and a bit guilty about the burdens Riese & Muller has been imposing on its customers, with this thread being yet another prime example.

I have been vocal in my enthusiasm for R&M ever since I started riding their bikes almost three year ago. At this point, I feel somewhat responsible to those who read my words, bought a Riese & Muller bike and have run into tedious and unacceptable troubles because Riese & Muller refuses to properly support its products in North America.

Please accept my apologies if my prior enthusiastic post touting the brand was a factor in your decision to buy this bike.

 

[SteveBorough]

I am feeling both angry and a bit guilty about the burdens Riese & Muller has been imposing on its customers, with this thread being yet another prime example.

I have been vocal in my enthusiasm for R&M ever since I started riding their bikes almost three year ago. At this point, I feel somewhat responsible to those who read my words, bought a Riese & Muller bike and have run into tedious and unacceptable troubles because Riese & Muller refuses to properly support its products in North America.

Please accept my apologies if my prior enthusiastic post touting the brand was a factor in your decision to buy this bike.

I take full responsibility for believing what has been an Effective marketing strategy! Every bike shop and their YouTube presence touts R&M as: the best, rock solid, SUV, tank, LandRover, etc...these likely came from R&M. Also, no apology necessary if you were merely and accurately sharing your experience.

 

[dblhelix]

So, I've had a loaner Delite HS Enviolo for about 2 weeks (thanks LBS!) as the shop works on replacing my motor and figuring out the tensioner wear issue, and it is a night and day experience. I will post ride metric as soon as I figure out how to retrieve them from the smartphone hub and compare to my SuperDelite HS Rohloff but its a whole new world of performance. With little effort, on Turbo, I can get to 28mph and beyond, even peaked at 33 mph the other day with some hard pedaling. This wasn't possible on my Superdelite

To manage my expectations, I am wondering whether my bike is just a lemon or is the weight/transmission combination of my +$4K bike inferior when it comes to non-distance metrics? Does anyone have comparison experience with the 2020 Super/Delite HS variants? Even with 1 battery (I have a dummy battery cover, for similar weight comparison) I was not getting anywhere near the assistance/speed on my bike. So disheartening, plus its been almost 2 months since I reported the initial 550 Error and the shop will need my bike for an additional 2 weeks. This R&M support logistics model needs to change.

I’d wait to compare to your bike with the replacement motor+fixes. Hopefully your previous experience becomes a bad memory. Does the shop need the additional two weeks for the motor swap, or for the tensioner wear issue? I’ve always wanted a realistic estimate on downtime should I need a motor swap “on the road.” I agree with you on the support model.

 

[SteveBorough]

I’d wait to compare to your bike with the replacement motor+fixes. Hopefully your previous experience becomes a bad memory. Does the shop need the additional two weeks for the motor swap, or for the tensioner wear issue? I’ve always wanted a realistic estimate on downtime should I need a motor swap “on the road.” I agree with you on the support model.

Hopeful you're right!! Motor swap took about a week to diagnose with Bosch, then a week to ship and install at the shop. I'm guessing Bosch and R&M do not perform live remote sessions with shop technicians (think zoom) and troubleshooting more closely resembles a game of email tag. Bosch, having more of a local US presence has likely had a much quicker turnaround than R&M and from the shop's explanation, R&M did not go the root cause analysis route and just advised on a workaround of spacers for the wear. This is disappointing and I advised the shop to do their own side by side parts comparison with another Superdelite to shed more light. We'll see what they come back with but overall I can say feedback and transparency from the shop has improved dramatically, which is good given all the other bad news. In addition to the loaner, they've been very responsive and accommodating during what will likely be an entire month without my bike.

 

[dblhelix]

I am feeling both angry and a bit guilty about the burdens Riese & Muller has been imposing on its customers, with this thread being yet another prime example.

I have been vocal in my enthusiasm for R&M ever since I started riding their bikes almost three year ago. At this point, I feel somewhat responsible to those who read my words, bought a Riese & Muller bike and have run into tedious and unacceptable troubles because Riese & Muller refuses to properly support its products in North America.

Please accept my apologies if my prior enthusiastic post touting the brand was a factor in your decision to buy this bike.

My assumption is that their business plan is something along the lines of, “there’s always another buyer.”

I recently double-checked the archives, just to be sure, for my 2019 R&M. It says: Brakes: MT4. My LBS (non-e) tells me I have MT2 and only the levers are MT4 as the cheap plastic MT2 levers would have been a dead giveaway. This isn’t the first time for me that a feature didn’t match what was advertised, hence my conclusion.

 

[JVBulman]

You're correct @dblhelix R&M lists their bikes as being spec'd with MT4 rears, but that is not the case as per personal observation and discussions with Magura. Current 2021 non-cargo models (save for the Roadster and Tinker) ship with an MT5 front, and an MT2 rear with MT5/MT4 levers (which are exactly the same save for the screenprinting on the lever blade.)

As for remote intervention from Bosch, that's not a common thing outside of flashing a drive unit that's mistakenly shipped with the wrong firmware. Bosch has checklists of things to check based and where the issue is on the bike. Beyond that, they ask to be emailed a diagnostic report of the bike as a next step and follow up with either additional troubleshooting steps or a warranty replacement case number. Assuming it's clear which part is acting up, this whole process can be pretty quick, but if the issue is more ambiguous, isolating the offending component can take a while.

 

[Luto]

I am feeling both angry and a bit guilty about the burdens Riese & Muller has been imposing on its customers, with this thread being yet another prime example.

I have been vocal in my enthusiasm for R&M ever since I started riding their bikes almost three year ago. At this point, I feel somewhat responsible to those who read my words, bought a Riese & Muller bike and have run into tedious and unacceptable troubles because Riese & Muller refuses to properly support its products in North America.

Please accept my apologies if my prior enthusiastic post touting the brand was a factor in your decision to buy this bike.

HI AK,

No Worries, I too was at first taken by RM bikes and figured that at such as high price, relatively speaking, and being German source, it would have been a solid like a BMW or Mercedes. But once I rode several, my impression was "over engineered" and "over built". When I saw those two things, I suspected things were not good and looked elsewhere. I went French design and build instead and have been very pleased. A more elegant solution, IMO.

Everyone need to take responsibility for their needs and expectations. Your posts, although enthusiastic where honest and detailed enough that anyone with equal sense and money would have known if it was the right bike for them.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I went French design and build instead and have been very pleased. A more elegant solution, IMO.

Moustache?

 

[Augsburg]

We own two 2019 Gen 2 R+M Nevo GX Rohloff with Gates belt drive. We've experienced many similar "teething" problems identified in this posting - with the bikes down weeks at a time for diagnosis and repairs. Our bike shop (located 500 miles away) did their best to support us, but are reliant on R+M, Bosch and Rohloff for fixes. We do put quite a few miles on the bikes (6,000 miles in the first 18 months - not counting thousands of miles on loaner bikes), so like others have said, we may be running into issues much more quickly than a typcial R+M owner.

Due to the extended down time with the bikes, we finally purchased a Gazelle Ultimate 10+ HMB as a "back-up" bike. The Gazelle is a derailleur bike with the Gen 4 HS motor, and with 1,500 miles, in a back-up role over the last six months, has proven very reliable. The point is, if you enjoy the leading edge tech of your R+M with Rohloff E-14, (and we certainly do!!), you might want to consider a back-up plan.

The bike manufacturers and bike shops do need to understand providing for a back-up is not really acceptable long term. The approaches used in the bike industry in the past, (when bikes cost $1,000 to $2,000), don't cut it when we are paying $7,000 to $10,000 or more for a bike.

Luckily, many of the issues we've experienced are now understood, (for example: Suntour Q-Loc thru-bolt skewers, bad Bosch display units, and the pesky lockring that comes all-so-slightly loose on the front belt pulley), so we are now able to correct more easily.

 

[Luto]

Moustache?

Yes, Dimanche 29.5 and 29.3. Both ride excellent with Shimano GRX 800 and 400 derailleurs. Easy to fix and maintain. The only think I do not mess with is the actual Bosch motor. Interestingly, the Gazelle is the bike the dealer sells along with R+M, Moustache. The dealer says Gazelle is selling great for people who just want an e-bike at a reasonable price and rides nice. I.e. it sells to people who do not overthink their decision.

Coming from performance road bikes and sew up tires, I was concerned about being a "old dude' and not embracing new things. So the new gearings system where a possibility. As it turns out the improvements in tires, rotor brakes and narrower gears-chains are the main improvements that I enjoy. All that being said, I am going back to a regular bike, a Knolly gravel from BC Canada, and am going to put on high performance tires and run the Shimano GRX 800 group set. One E-bike is going up for sale this spring (in the Seattle area)

 

[webcurl]

To be fair i'm not sure which "over-engineered" R&M ebikes were test ridden and this thread was started as a SuperDelite HS thread which is a full suspension high speed ebike with not your average belt tensioning parts/design. Also the R&M's Alaskan has owned have been the "over-engineered" models of R&M eg. Homage & Delite/Superdelite, these are an entirely different beast to a fixed fork road bike like the Moustache Dimanche's (25km/h?).
Not sure how many problems people have had with R&M Roadster's, Chargers, Nevo's which btw all have front suspension forks which the Dimanche's do not.

 

[Luto]

Hi Webcurl,
I of course do not want to bash R&M bikes. But I can point out a few things wrt to the question. I rode the Delite, Super Delite, Charger and Super Charger. In general the comment was about things like

• Integrated brake lights with the levers that light up before brakes are applied.
• The frames were build very strong. Many people are not that large and many folks feel that some flex is desirable in order to get into a cadence-rhythm.
• The fact there are two batteries in some and the dual charging aspect.
• The built in horn in a location that many people feel is sub-optimal.
• ABS in Europe
• Optimized shocks travel and tuning for E-bikes.
• Larger cargo capacity.
• Integrated rear light-fender.
• 3 drive options and class 1 and class 3 speeds, so 6 possible builds per model
• Optimized front lights for maximum best lux on the road.
• Customized stem for integrated controller

Perhaps a better description is there were a lot of features and built for heavy duty usage. MANY are good things. But as a result there is more complexity, less ability to change parts or do your own service. Also people who are smaller and lighter don't need that much strength in they frame and parts.

When one compares all these features to other bikes where many parts are standard and only the motor and battery are "added" on, the R&M seems to really be embracing the e-bike direction. This makes sense since the Europeans have stricter legal standards for e-bikes.

Hope that helps.

PS: I see Webcurl responded below.. I am not sure what the point is besides to be contrary. I will not be responding.

 

[webcurl]

PS: I see Webcurl responded below.. I am not sure what the point is besides to be contrary. I will not be responding.

I did but then retracted.
I eventually figured out you were raising points for other people.
And i got caught up in arguing the points you were bringing up about R&M as compared to what you ended up choosing (Moustache Dimanche's).
In particular changing parts & self servicing when the Moustache listed a ton of proprietary parts on the Dimanche.

 

[SteveBorough]

FINALLY! got my bike back yesterday, its been well over a month, going for a ride today and will update the thread hopefully with some good news!

 

[marcparnes]

FINALLY! got my bike back yesterday, its been well over a month, going for a ride today and will update the thread hopefully with some good news!

Did they hint at what was wrong?

Marc

 

[SteveBorough]

Did they hint at what was wrong?

Marc

they did, a few things, mainly the chainring sprocket was bent/misshapen and the motor had been water damaged due to faulty seals used in the early batch runs of the new Bosch Gen4s. Its safe to assume all other issues trickled out from these fundamental problems. Will report back in a few hours after my test.

 

[sammcneill]

they did, a few things, mainly the chainring sprocket was bent/misshapen and the motor had been water damaged due to faulty seals used in the early batch runs of the new Bosch Gen4s. Its safe to assume all other issues trickled out from these fundamental problems. Will report back in a few hours after my test.

Either that ride was so epic it hasn’t finished yet, or it was so disappointing he can’t bring himself to calmly respond here!

 

[Alaskan]

Either that ride was so epic it hasn’t finished yet, or it was so disappointing he can’t bring himself to calmly respond here!

...or it's Friday night and he has a hot date, or he does not live to satisfy our curiosity and wants to leave us in suspense for a while longer. I am sure we will find out soon enough.

 

[SteveBorough]

Haha, I very much wanted to keep riding! Glad to report that the motor response and handling of the bike has improved. I think the misshapen chainring has caused my Rohloff to wear in a weird way as it still clanks and misses shifts more than I think it should but overall I am happy with the bike and ultra pleased with the response from my LBS. It's no secret, although I refrained from outright identifying them but I now feel compelled to shout out Chris and the team at Propel Brooklyn who have accommodated me nicely. It took them over a month and a half but in adjusting my patience and conceding that R&M troubleshooting is not a perfect process and has its inherent delays, the attention to detail such a machine requires was adequately applied and I am happier with my investment. The list of work done is extensive and was their attempt to restore it as much as possible to factory condition (better than what I purchased new) and they even threw in a few "extras" for my trouble! I rank this up there with my Toto as the best splurge purchases I've made in recent years! Thanks everyone on this thread for your input and support!

 

[sammcneill]

Haha, I very much wanted to keep riding! Glad to report that the motor response and handling of the bike has improved. I think the misshapen chainring has caused my Rohloff to wear in a weird way as it still clanks and misses shifts more than I think it should but overall I am happy with the bike and ultra pleased with the response from my LBS. It's no secret, although I refrained from outright identifying them but I now feel compelled to shout out Chris and the team at Propel Brooklyn who have accommodated me nicely. It took them over a month and a half but in adjusting my patience and conceding that R&M troubleshooting is not a perfect process and has its inherent delays, the attention to detail such a machine requires was adequately applied and I am happier with my investment. The list of work done is extensive and was their attempt to restore it as much as possible to factory condition (better than what I purchased new) and they even threw in a few "extras" for my trouble! I rank this up there with my Toto as the best splurge purchases I've made in recent years! Thanks everyone on this thread for your input and support!

Stoked you got a great outcome Steve! Nice one