SuperDelite 2020 Rohloff HS Issues & Support

[webcurl]

I think the misshapen chainring has caused my Rohloff to wear in a weird way as it still clanks and misses shifts more than I think it should but overall

You are lowering your pedal power when changing gears?
Only a video can describe what you are talking about i think.

 

[SteveBorough]

You are lowering your pedal power when changing gears?
Only a video can describe what you are talking about i think.

almost completely stopping pedalling and it occasionally misses gears, ie when i start applying force again its super hard to pedal until it finally snaps, with a loud clank, into the gear.

 

[dblhelix]

almost completely stopping pedalling and it occasionally misses gears, ie when i start applying force again its super hard to pedal until it finally snaps, with a loud clank, into the gear.

Rohlolff FAQ - Gear Loss/Slipping | Australia

Rohloff FAQs on Speedhub 500/14 gear loss and slipping. Why and what to look for with gear loss, gear skipping and gear slipping. How to check n report.

www.rohloff-au.com

 

[webcurl]

almost completely stopping pedalling and it occasionally misses gears, ie when i start applying force again its super hard to pedal until it finally snaps, with a loud clank, into the gear.

E-14 - Rohloff AG

www.rohloff.de

Towards the bottom..
"A small amount of rider input is still required to ensure load-free and comfortable shifts are completed within 0.2 seconds:"

 

[webcurl]

Here begins a new problem with the E14 where users who have not experienced a manual shift Rohloff before never get to develop the practice of shifting without pressure, instead relying on the E14 to perform the change completely.
Which is why i have suggested that there should be parameters the end-user can change in regards to E14,
eg.
Someone with no experience: Cut 90% of motor power for 300ms (or whatever is required)
Someone with previous experience: Cut motor 30% of motor power for 150ms.
Someone with previous experience & allow fast shifting: Cut motor 0% for 0ms.

2 parameters within the end-user Bosch settings:
E14 percentage of motor cut-out (0-100%, 5% steps).
E14 time to allow shift (0-XXXX, 50ms steps)
(ms - milli second)

Or if there is a power curve used to cut motor power then pick a few key points of that curve to allow the end user to configure.

And for Bosch to go a step further: Have 2 to 5 profiles of these settings a user can switch between reasonably easy so that the ebike can be shared amongst friends/family without worrying about stressing the auto shifting system.
eg. Maybe i'd call them "Rohloff newbie", "Rohloff experienced", "Rohloff pro"

And of course in-conjunction with END-USER configurable battery reserve for E14.

 

[SteveBorough]

E-14 - Rohloff AG

www.rohloff.de

Towards the bottom..
"A small amount of rider input is still required to ensure load-free and comfortable shifts are completed within 0.2 seconds:"

My understanding is that after a shift, (after you press the button and after you hear the servo) any pressure applied to the pedals commits the shift. During missed shifts, the pressure required to "commit" the shift is significant and finally commits with a loud clank and slippage. At "button press" and before the servo completes, I consistently reduce pedal pressure to almost nothing.

 

[Alaskan]

Here begins a new problem with the E14 where users who have not experienced a manual shift Rohloff before never get to develop the practice of shifting without pressure, instead relying on the E14 to perform the change completely.
Which is why i have suggested that there should be parameters the end-user can change in regards to E14,
eg.
Someone with no experience: Cut 90% of motor power for 300ms (or whatever is required)
Someone with previous experience: Cut motor 30% of motor power for 150ms.
Someone with previous experience & allow fast shifting: Cut motor 0% for 0ms.

2 parameters within the end-user Bosch settings:
E14 percentage of motor cut-out (0-100%, 5% steps).
E14 time to allow shift (0-XXXX, 50ms steps)
(ms - milli second)

Or if there is a power curve used to cut motor power then pick a few key points of that curve to allow the end user to configure.

And for Bosch to go a step further: Have 2 to 5 profiles of these settings a user can switch between reasonably easy so that the ebike can be shared amongst friends/family without worrying about stressing the auto shifting system.
eg. Maybe i'd call them "Rohloff newbie", "Rohloff experienced", "Rohloff pro"

And of course in-conjunction with END-USER configurable battery reserve for E14.

Smooth and quick shifting of a Rohloff does not need to be nearly so complicated with too many options. I have owned and ridden both Rohloff manual and E-14 equipped bikes.

On the manual twist shift, it is necessary to do a momentary pause with your pedaling to take torque (pressure) of the cranks and let the gears move smoothly up or down. The time needed is a mere 160 milliseconds, less than 1/4 second.

The best way to accomplish this is to time your shift when your feet are at 12 & 6 o'clock on the cranks, the point at which you are naturally applying the least amount of torque to the cranks already. You do not need to stop pedalling when you push the shift button, just slow down slightly before your foot rises to top dead center with your pedal and then resume normal speed and pressure on the pedal as soon as your foot starts moving forward and down. It takes a bit of practice but after a few rides it starts becoming muscle memory and you don't even have to think about it.

The E-14 system by Rohloff makes for even smoother shifts in that it does the same thing, stops the motor from adding pressure on the chain for 160 milliseconds when you push the shift button. When I first got my E14, I thought that meant I could just keep pedalling full force. That made for rough and noisy shifting. I resumed shifting as I had learned on my manual twist shift and all shifts became almost silent, and butter smooth.

If the rider learns to learn this one simple skill, no complications in the shifting at the electronic level would be needed.

 

[Jay Kay]

Try this @SteveBorough -

 

[Rider777]

I have more than 20K miles riding ebikes.
Of which about 6K of that is with R&M Nevo GT and presently R&M Delite. Both touring models....you now know where I’m going here:
I test rode the Rohloff version of both these bikes and found: 1.) the additional unsprung weight definitely caused a “clunkier/more uncomfortable” ride compared to the tried and true sprocket/chain touring model, 2.) the complexity of removing and reinstalling the rear wheel for a flat repair is unacceptable, 3.) the added cost of approximately $1800 vs the touring model overwhelmingly sold me on the good ole chain and sprocket, 4.) Chain and sprocket setups can be repaired by any LBS and/or a general mechanic like myself, 5.) You can vary sprocket sizes for a more customized power delivery, 6.) Wear and tear on the chain and sprocket is for me about 3 to 1. I.E: 3 chains at 2500 miles each to one chainring and cassette . Cheap especially keeping in mind that $1800 up charge mentioned earlier.
Love my ebikes

 

[Alaskan]

almost completely stopping pedalling and it occasionally misses gears, ie when i start applying force again its super hard to pedal until it finally snaps, with a loud clank, into the gear.

When was the last time you did an auto-calibration on your Rohloff?

 

[SteveBorough]

When was the last time you did an auto-calibration on your Rohloff?

The holding shift + & - & power thing? Immediately after the first clanky miss-shift, seems to behaving better after loosening the rear axel skewer a smidge. Will update in a few days.

Update: loosening the quick release axel a tiny bit is the fix, wondering if I should get a Rohloff oil change given the past 10 months and sever bike issues I've faced.

 

[Alaskan]

The holding shift + & - & power thing? Immediately after the first clanky miss-shift, seems to behaving better after loosening the rear axel skewer a smidge. Will update in a few days.

That was going to be my next question. Rohloff hubs are famous for griping & chattering at you if you have overtightened the axle skewer.

 

[webcurl]

The E-14 system by Rohloff makes for even smoother shifts in that it does the same thing, stops the motor from adding pressure on the chain for 160 milliseconds when you push the shift button. When I first got my E14, I thought that meant I could just keep pedalling full force. That made for rough and noisy shifting. I resumed shifting as I had learned on my manual twist shift and all shifts became almost silent, and butter smooth.

If it was set at let's say 200 - 250ms would it be enough time to perform a complete shift?
Let's say that 200ms is enough time to cut the engine to perform a complete shift then this could be applied to the "novice" profile: people new to Rohloff, lending the bike to a person who would never get the Rohloff ease off power thing, potentially smoother AND foolproof.
Of course sometimes whilst still pedalling hard & trying to shift simultaneously you may have to learn the ease off technique a bit still.
-> Better still with Bosch's superior Torque sensor it could sense that you're applying to much force and not perform the shift, displaying a brief message instead "Ease off power a little before shifting".
Have profile "experienced" set at 160ms and "pro" set at 0ms, eg. The "pro" profile would allow it to be as quick as an experienced Rohloff user with a manual shift.
And i'll change my suggestion of the user configurable time to cut motor to 1ms steps.

Also, not just for Rohloff, but perhaps applicable to Kindernay, Alfine Di2 & others.
These settings can be buried deep within the user interface, with profiles at the forefront of that section.

 

[Alaskan]

These settings can be buried deep within the user interface, with profiles at the forefront of that section.

This sidebar discussion is a real hijack of the OP's inquiry. I have answered this where it belongs, on the Bosch improvement thread and will no longer discuss it here.

 

[JVBulman]

As luck would have it, we have a Superdelite GT Rohloff HS in for it's 300mi service that's showing the exact same issue @SteveBorough was suffering from.



Swapping parts between this bike and our demo has me scratching my head - the customer's chainring and guide pulley carrier contact when installed on their bike, but not when installed on our demo bike. Likewise, the demo bikes carrier and chainring contact when installed on the customer's bike. We've taken all manner of measurements and the only thing we've found is that on the demo bike, there's a +1.5-2mm difference between the end of the drive unit crank arm spindle and the end of post the carrier mounts to, which amounts to about how much clearance the carrier and chainring have when installed on the demo bike.

@SteveBorough, would you mind conversing with me over direct message? With your permission, I'd like to get the contact info for your shop and ask them the details of how they went about diagnosing and fixing the issue on your bike while I wait for the time difference in Germany.

 

[SteveBorough]

@SteveBorough, would you mind conversing with me over direct message? With your permission, I'd like to get the contact info for your shop and ask them the details of how they went about diagnosing and fixing the issue on your bike while I wait for the time difference in Germany.

Sure thing, will dm you.

 

[ZSoloTour]

Greetings, I recently encountered a few issues after receiving a 550 error during a light drizzle. Firstly, I know no ebike is "waterproof" but I presume this tank of a bike can handle a light drizzle. During the incident the lights, motor and transmission were not responding to input but the screen worked. I had to walk the bike home a few miles in light rain. Once home the error continued whenever I turned on the bike for a few hours, then it went away. I hadn't ridden the bike in the rain again but did do some off-roading and splashed through a large puddle and the error returned. It resolved itself in a few minutes but once home I needed to clean the mud off the bike. Using some Mud-Off and a bucket of water and brush, I washed the bike (no pressure washer and kept the bike right-side-up) and started getting the 550 Error again. I scheduled an appointment at the bike shop I purchased the bike from and upon pickup of the bike, just received a printout of a few diagnostic errors, none of which were the 550 error and no explanation or further analysis, just that they reached out to R&M for an explanation. This was more than 2 weeks ago!

This brings me to my biggest concern with the bike, my local bike shop is as clueless as I am when it comes to troubleshooting this bike. Spending $12K USD, one expects a higher than average service level but for as long as I've owned it, any issue I've faced has been met with a best-guess approach to servicing and rarely solving my bike's issues. Young kids that may be decent regular bike "mechanics" but barely understand the complexity of my R&M, from stripping bolts, to not being able to fix my turn lock problem, to not understanding the odd ride metrics the app/kiox was reporting, to replacing a part that was being worn away by the chainring (new part is still being worn away), nothing has been straight forward with owning this vehicle. I say vehicle and not bicycle as to impart that at almost 30 mph, an extra concern, knowledge and care needs to be exercised to ensure rider safety. I'm not sure R&M thought this through in their business model OR my LBS is just that inexperienced.

Lastly, on recent rides, I noticed the bike seems to provide less and less assistance past 24/25 mph and it has become almost impossible to reach 28 on anything but slightly downhill paved roads. I borrowed a friends Garmin GPS device and mounted my phone to the handlebars to compare speed readings to the kiox display. To further complicate things, my kiox display is approximately 2.5 mph faster than both my phone and the garmin device, showing 28mph and cutting off assist while the other devices display speeds of 25-26mph. I've messed with wheel circumference settings and tried riding with a single battery to lessen weight but it still seems much slower than it used to be. Moreover, got passed by someone on a Gazelle T10 the other day, while trying my hardest to get to and maintain top speed, something is wrong.

Normally, with all the issues I'm facing, I'd be optimistic that with proper analysis and troubleshooting a solution could be discovered BUT given my experiences with my local bike shop, I doubt this will be easily remedied. We've all heard the terms "SUV, Range Rover, Mercedes Benz, even Rolls Royce" when describing the SuperDelite, just wish the accompanying support/expertise lived up to that same heritage.

I have a few other complaints like the front wheel being way to easy to turn out of alignment with the handlebars but feel like a maniac even bringing that up to my bike shop given our history. I beseech this community and fellow 2020/21 SuperDelite owners to help me troubleshoot these issues if possible and look forward to interacting.

While this is an old thread, I thought I'd add my negative experience. While I loved my R&M Supercharger2 for the first 7000 miles it has become a nightmare. Primary issue is with Rohloff and related integration issues. Rohloff, Bosch and R&M have been of little/no help. I won't detail all the issues here, suffice to say that my most recent solo tour was cut short halfway in at around 1,200 miles on the Oregon ciast and the bike has been down for 2.5 months since with no resolution in sight. I received a new e-14 after being assured by all that this would fix the problem. Gleefully installed only to find the exact problem I was experiencing persists with the new $500 part.........I am considering several solutions: 1. While replacing electronic shifter with mechanical seemed viable for a time, I am now leaning against this because of other anticipated issues with R&M; 2. Buying a new R&M with traditional chain/derailleur drive has now been ruled out also because of R&M inability/unwillingness to support their bikes in virtually all of the US. 3. Starting the search for the best bike I can find that is not an R&M. Sad, because I did love it when it ran, but sometimes have to say goodbye to things we love because they are simply defective.

 

[ZSoloTour]

Smooth and quick shifting of a Rohloff does not need to be nearly so complicated with too many options. I have owned and ridden both Rohloff manual and E-14 equipped bikes.

On the manual twist shift, it is necessary to do a momentary pause with your pedaling to take torque (pressure) of the cranks and let the gears move smoothly up or down. The time needed is a mere 160 milliseconds, less than 1/4 second.

The best way to accomplish this is to time your shift when your feet are at 12 & 6 o'clock on the cranks, the point at which you are naturally applying the least amount of torque to the cranks already. You do not need to stop pedalling when you push the shift button, just slow down slightly before your foot rises to top dead center with your pedal and then resume normal speed and pressure on the pedal as soon as your foot starts moving forward and down. It takes a bit of practice but after a few rides it starts becoming muscle memory and you don't even have to think about it.

The E-14 system by Rohloff makes for even smoother shifts in that it does the same thing, stops the motor from adding pressure on the chain for 160 milliseconds when you push the shift button. When I first got my E14, I thought that meant I could just keep pedalling full force. That made for rough and noisy shifting. I resumed shifting as I had learned on my manual twist shift and all shifts became almost silent, and butter smooth.

If the rider learns to learn this one simple skill, no complications in the shifting at the electronic level would be needed.

This is exactly how I ride and have ridden all my life, always relieving pressure to shift. My system still failed mid solo tour and my bike has been down for 2.5 mos with no solution in site. Yesterday, I replaced the e-14 which I was assured and was gleefully certain would bet me back on the road. Sadly it did. not. Anyone want to buy a Reise & Muller Supercharger 2, Matte Gray located in Montana let me know!

 

[Augsburg]

While this is an old thread, I thought I'd add my negative experience. While I loved my R&M Supercharger2 for the first 7000 miles it has become a nightmare. Primary issue is with Rohloff and related integration issues. Rohloff, Bosch and R&M have been of little/no help. I won't detail all the issues here, suffice to say that my most recent solo tour was cut short halfway in at around 1,200 miles on the Oregon ciast and the bike has been down for 2.5 months since with no resolution in sight. I received a new e-14 after being assured by all that this would fix the problem. Gleefully installed only to find the exact problem I was experiencing persists with the new $500 part.........I am considering several solutions: 1. While replacing electronic shifter with mechanical seemed viable for a time, I am now leaning against this because of other anticipated issues with R&M; 2. Buying a new R&M with traditional chain/derailleur drive has now been ruled out also because of R&M inability/unwillingness to support their bikes in virtually all of the US. 3. Starting the search for the best bike I can find that is not an R&M. Sad, because I did love it when it ran, but sometimes have to say goodbye to things we love because they are simply defective.

We've had similar problems with our two 2019 Rohloff Nevos, but things did finally settle down. I had my E-14 shifter fail last year at 14,000 miles, but replacing the E-14 shifter solved the problem. I still get error codes occasionally, which is maddening. Overall, I love the Bosch/Rohloff combo, but there is problem with the reliability of the electronic communications between the motor, display and Rohloff. For this reason. I'm especially interested to hear how the newly announced Pinion MGU works for the R+M models is is being offered in (Europe only at this point). Rohloff also recently introduced a new shifter for the E-14, which curiously does not look like everyone else's design. The shifter addresses the old model's challenges with being too small for reliable use - especially with gloves. And the lack of a tactile feedback when shifting. We'll see how this works out.

 

[ZSoloTour]

We've had similar problems with our two 2019 Rohloff Nevos, but things did finally settle down. I had my E-14 shifter fail last year at 14,000 miles, but replacing the E-14 shifter solved the problem. I still get error codes occasionally, which is maddening. Overall, I love the Bosch/Rohloff combo, but there is problem with the reliability of the electronic communications between the motor, display and Rohloff. For this reason. I'm especially interested to hear how the newly announced Pinion MGU works for the R+M models is is being offered in (Europe only at this point). Rohloff also recently introduced a new shifter for the E-14, which curiously does not look like everyone else's design. The shifter addresses the old model's challenges with being too small for reliable use - especially with gloves. And the lack of a tactile feedback when shifting. We'll see how this works out.

That's good news for those willing to gamble with both systems, parts and horrible service. I am not willing. On 1,000 to 3,000 mile tours in the Rockies all the way up through BC, i require reliability and will not have anything I can not repair except perhaps the Bosch, although I am undecided about that. Not sure the motor is worth it. With a 25lb bike, I save 50 lbs. Maybe a few less miles/day. At 68 and going to higher levels every year, not sure if that is sustainable, but I may give it a try. Will be changing systems completely. Rode chains and derailleurs for 50 years, worked fine. thanks for the input.