Specialized Vado 4.0 - Beware

[kahn]

What a nice looking bike. I wasn't familiar with that maker.

Oh, they've always made nice looking machines. I need to find out where they filmed that Gain video (g). But it looks like a mid-drive??? No???

 

[kahn]

A hub-drive e-bike gives you no workout whatsoever. Ask me how I know.

How do you know?

My first e-bike was/is a custom titanium road frame converted to a front hub motor. While that front motor/weight makes the bike a bit squirrelly/twitchy, it is definitely a workout. It does have a slightly more powerful motor or assist but I workout on it just as much as on the Creo. Hub driven does not seem to diminish the need for me to pedal that damn thing up any grade or hill that I encounter.

 

[kahn]

Can I guess first? God handed the proclamation down to you engraved on a stone tablet on Mt. Sinai. Am I right? Am I at least close?

I actually saw that text. It was engraved on the tin foil I wear to protect from getting the messages direct into my brain.

Oh, so that Gain is a Hub? Pictures don't show that very well.

 

[kahn]

Rincon: Could you please answer my question? What was your own contribution in pedalling your Stromers and of Orbea Gain? Or, biker's to motor power ratio? Hard data please. Or calories per 100 km (calculated by a honest method). Just prove your hub drive e-bikes gave you any workout.

I don't deal with those numbers. I deal with ME. How I feel after a 30, 40 or 50 mile ride. My hub conversion provides me with a real workout. Rest assured that I REST after the ride. It is not a throttle - either I pedal or it stops ASSISTING.

 

[GuruUno]

Just want to interject my observations. MOST people I see that are e-bike users that have throttles use the bike like a scooter. They gain next to nil benefit from any 'workout'. Those who must "pedal to assist" do so and understand the value of the assistance.

 

[Rincon]

Oh, so that Gain is a Hub? Pictures don't show that very well.

Yes. I’m not sure I understood that when I took two out for test rides though. The Gain uses the ebikemotion rear hub motor. At the time I thought it was a Fazua mid-drive-via-the-seat-tube motor.

 

[kahn]

Yes. I’m not sure I understood that when I took two out for test rides though. The Gain uses the ebikemotion rear hub motor. At the time I thought it was a Fazua mid-drive-via-the-seat-tube motor.

Oh, so it can have two gears up front - nice.

I probably should have opted for a rear hub conversion but I did not want more weight (besides me) on the rear wheel. The front wheel motor was not as powerful but was lighter, too.

 

[kahn]

Yes. I’m not sure I understood that when I took two out for test rides though. The Gain uses the ebikemotion rear hub motor. At the time I thought it was a Fazua mid-drive-via-the-seat-tube motor.

Oh, that's interesting. It also allows two gears up front without the excessive Q distance.

I probably should have gone for the rear motor hub when I did the conversion. But I did not want more weight (besides me) on that rear wheel. In addition, the front motor was lighter in weight. Mine has NO throttle. I pedal or it just stops assisting - it is a workout and I'm not sure how anybody could believe otherwise. But it handles, as I've noted, a bit squirelly in the front end due to the additional weight and possibly gyroscopic effect.

Where did you try out the Orbea? Firefox keeps crashing as I try to find a shop.

 

[Rincon]

Where did you try out the Orbea? Firefox keeps crashing as I try to find a shop.

At Bike Attack. Looks like Orbea has a few new ebike models now.

 

[BioWheel]

At Bike Attack. Looks like Orbea has a few new ebike models now.

That's great to see on a website - nice models. But they can't be purchased because they aren't available anywhere.

 

[Rincon]

it is a workout and I'm not sure how anybody could believe otherwise

Yes. A hub drive is exactly the same as a mid drive or any other programmable motor. It is up to the firmware how much power the motor delivers in relation to how much effort the rider puts into a torque sensor. Clearly it isn’t an on/off switch. Motor power is metered to rider power. The location of the motor is irrelevant. The power ratio is determined by a programmer, or in the case of Specialized, by you programming Mission Control. Cadence sensors are another story.

 

[Rincon]

That's great to see on a website - nice models. But they can't be purchased because they aren't available anywhere.

That seems to be the case with a lot of things. Looks like the Gain D20 will be available in a few weeks though. The other models in September.

Actually, Orbeas are usually made to order in Spain. Bike Attack stocks a few, but you would typically make a custom order and take delivery later. Take a look at Orbea’s website.

 

[kahn]

At Bike Attack. Looks like Orbea has a few new ebike models now.

None in my area at all - closest two to three hours away. I do recall them being a rarer brand but I've seen them in the past. I guess I could hit the ones near you if I get down to visit my sister. I was just looking at the local shop and they've a Trek Domaine on sale and just a brief look but it weighs about 10 pounds more than my Creo. That's why I went with Specialized - weight. Obviously, I got a lower powered motor - tradeoffs.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I didn't want to create a thunderstorm here. I also understand the owners of hub-drives could become upset.

Figure this:
A hub drive provides constant assistance for given PAS level (let us forget the throttle for awhile: my hub-drive e-bike has only PAS). The rider has to pedal only as much as to get into the equilibrium with the motor. More motor power, and it becomes "ghost-pedalling". That makes hub-drive e-bikes perfect commuters because you come to work with no sweat.

Mid-drive motor is equipped with a torque sensor. The more you give the more you get.

No hard data but only feeling of workout? OK, it is called "belief". You do not discuss with the faithful.

P.S. I think you both Rincon and kahn ride SL e-bikes. Why do you do it?!

 

[kahn]

I didn't want to create a thunderstorm here. I also understand the owners of hub-drives could become upset.

Figure this:
A hub drive provides constant assistance for given PAS level (let us forget the throttle for awhile: my hub-drive e-bike has only PAS). The rider has to pedal only as much as to get into the equilibrium with the motor. More motor power, and it becomes "ghost-pedalling". That makes hub-drive e-bikes perfect commuters because you come to work with no sweat.

Mid-drive motor is equipped with a torque sensor. The more you give the more you get.

No hard data but only feeling of workout? OK, it is called "belief". You do not discuss with the faithful.

P.S. I think you both Rincon and kahn ride SL e-bikes. Why do you do it?!

I sweat using either of the bikes. My front hub bike's battery was dwindling downward and barely eked out 30 miles. And as I wrote, the front motor makes the bike twitchy in handling and steep hills (where you can bet I'm pedaling my ass off) or tighter turns. I had read reviews of the Creo and its relatively light weight. I tested it out and liked its handling but did notice it had less power on hills that I ride - Seattle is quite hilly. I did not rush and slept on it for two weeks. Told the shop to prepare it for another longer test ride and to equip it with spd pedals. Redid the hills and then some. Figured this old body and overweight body could power pedal it up some hills but knew it would probably not do others (that the converted bike did but you tell it was at its limit). Twice now I've let my friend ride down a really steep hill to the beach and back while I waited at the top. I don't think the Creo would do it. It's a long hill and I don't relish dropping down and having to possibly push the Creo back up a mile.

I know you truly believe that my hub bike relieves me of a workout. I know it is not true. I've used both bikes a day apart when the Specialized was in for its three month check. I worked my butt off on the hub bike. If I don't pedal and keep pedaling and shift gears as necessary it just stops helping me out. Maybe its Cadence Sensor and Seamless integration with rider pedaling makes it different. But this discussion is actually now leading no where. You have your beliefs. I have my knowledge.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

You have your beliefs. I have my knowledge.

No data, only beliefs.

 

[Rincon]

A hub drive provides constant assistance for given PAS level (let us forget the throttle for awhile: my hub-drive e-bike has only PAS). The rider has to pedal only as much as to get into the equilibrium with the motor. More motor power, and it becomes "ghost-pedalling". That makes hub-drive e-bikes perfect commuters because you come to work with no sweat.

Well that’s the problem right there. You only have experience with a poorly implemented hub drive and assumed that all hub drives are the same. That’s a misbelief, a misconception. They are not all the same. My Stromer ST2 hub drive is strictly torque sensing. There’s no ghost pedaling. The motor outputs what you input. You get to work sweaty if you want to get there fast. The more effort you put into the ST2 pedals, the more buttery smooth power the 750 watt Stromer direct drive hub applies to the wheel.

I’ve never before heard of ghost pedaling. Why would anyone design a bike like that? Terrible idea.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I’ve never before heard of ghost pedaling.

Ask @tomjasz. (I've heard of that concept from him). I have never owned a 750 W hub-drive e-bike. Or, an e-bike with throttle.
Stromers are equipped with Direct Drive motor with torque sensing. 99+% of hub-drives are equipped with a geared hub drive that is very different.

 

[Solom01]

Wow. Now I remember why I stopped posting here, it was certainly not my intention to start a war. It's a person's choice to buy whatever they want, some people hate Gains, others love them. I was just trying to give TForan some choices. Orbea is a well known maker of quality bikes (ebikes and regular bikes) from the Basque country of Spain. Tforan, this may not be the right bike for you if top speed is the main concern since it's a true class 1 bike (no throttle and power cuts off at about 20-21 mph in the US) but I've used mine for thousands of miles and never had a problem with it except for the optional extension battery which Orbea fixed under warranty. The power delivery is very controllable, and the App allows you to easily change the maximum power delivered at any of the three settings. I admit that I'm not at all obsessive about cleaning the chain, etc. and yet I've never had a problem with the gearing. As for getting a workout if one's heart rate is any indication of a work out one can definitely get a work out. One of the reasons I like the bike is that besides being very stealth I can ride it until I'm really tired out and use the higher power levels to get me back home or fight the huge headwinds that are common in SW Florida. So no hills whatsoever here, but being on the coast of the Gulf Stream headwinds of over 20mph are not at all rare.

 

[kahn]

Wow. Now I remember why I stopped posting here, it was certainly not my intention to start a war. It's a person's choice to buy whatever they want, some people hate Gains, others love them. I was just trying to give TForan some choices. Orbea is a well known maker of quality bikes (ebikes and regular bikes) from the Basque country of Spain. Tforan, this may not be the right bike for you if top speed is the main concern since it's a true class 1 bike (no throttle and power cuts off at about 20-21 mph in the US) but I've used mine for thousands of miles and never had a problem with it except for the optional extension battery which Orbea fixed under warranty. The power delivery is very controllable, and the App allows you to easily change the maximum power delivered at any of the three settings. I admit that I'm not at all obsessive about cleaning the chain, etc. and yet I've never had a problem with the gearing. As for getting a workout if one's heart rate is any indication of a work out one can definitely get a work out. One of the reasons I like the bike is that besides being very stealth I can ride it until I'm really tired out and use the higher power levels to get me back home or fight the huge headwinds that are common in SW Florida. So no hills whatsoever here, but being on the coast of the Gulf Stream headwinds of over 20mph are not at all rare.

And thanks for your opinion. I'd not thought about Orbea in quite a while. Actually, I might have been sweating more through this entire discussion than when pedaling the Creo!