Specialized Turbo Vado SL: An Incredible E-Bike (User Club)

[Stefan Mikes]

If you are not bored already with the Wheeltop EDS OX2.0 system...

Let me first tell you how Shimano Di2 (MTB) and SRAM AXS electronic drivetrains do work. These big players don't give a s*it for the system flexibility. Currently, the drivetrains from the Big Two are all 12-speed and require expensive system components to work perfectly. If you install a SRAM AXS wireless derailleur then the cassette must be SRAM, too. The user (or a mechanic) installs the AXS derailleur and precisely aligns the derailleur guide pulley with the smallest cassette cog. As the cassette sprockets are precisely spaced, there is only one global adjustment for the derailleur. Say, you use the "SRAM AXS upgrade kit" that works with derailleur hangers. Say, your derailleur hanger got slightly bent. Yes, you can electronically adjust the derailleur but only for the smallest cassette cog; the spacing between the cassette sprockets won't change. And, if it is 12 speed, it is 12 speed. You cannot upgrade your bike with the latest SRAM 13-speed cassette. (It is similar to Shimano Di2 conceptually).

The flexibility of Wheeltop EDS OX2.0 is a blessing and a curse at the same time. Yes, you can use any cassette. Yes, you can micro-tune the derailleur the way the device knows the exact position of each cassette sprocket, 3-14 speed drivetrains, 10-52T being the largest cassette. Where is the curse then? The documentation and the app, which are not clear enough.

It all starts with precisely aligning the derailleur guide pulley with the smallest cassette sprocket (as for any derailleur!) It is done with the H-screw (high limit screw, not the L-screw as I wrote for several times). Now, if your cassette is a Shimano, theoretically the derailleur should work with the default settings (you need to do some adjustments for SRAM cassettes). So, you happily set off for a check ride and discover you cannot shift to certain gears anyway. OK, you need to do fine tuning or micro calibration for the problematic gears. You basically do it with a smartphone app. Why is it cumbersome?

• A numerical change of a gear setting requires a subsequent gear change (you might think entering a value and confirming would do the adjustment immediately but it does not). Very confusing.
• The gears are numbered from the smallest cassette sprocket. Yes, you can reverse the numbering by the Gear Mirror option. Then you understand the fine tuning even less
• Now, let us assume you are in Gear 9 (third smallest on a 11-speed cassette). An attempt to upshift to Gear 10 does not move the chain and the upshift does not occur...
  • Should you adjust the position of Gear 9 or Gear 10...?
  • You would probably think: "Let us move the position of Gear 9 towards the Gear 10, so the chain drops onto Gear 10 more easily!". Wrong.
  • To do a gear change, you need to move the guide pulley the way it is aligned with the sprocket to which you intend to shift. Cannot go from 9 to 10? Move the setting of Gear 10 towards the smaller sprockets! Do not touch the Gear 9!

Did you understand anything? I can bet it is not easy! Once I got the understanding of the above, derailleur fine tuning became a breeze!

The guide pulley must be aligned with the respective cassette sprocket. If some gear is not shifted into, you adjust this one not any other!

-------------
Many people publish OX2.0 tutorials on YT. However, the subject is so extensive that the authors give up explaining such little but vital facts. It all makes things very confusing until you have spent enough time figuring out how the system actually works.

Necessary to mention, you can do fine tuning using the shifter. The intention is to be able to fine tune the derailleur as you are riding. The problem is nobody understands how it is done The most popular comment of the tutorial authors is "it doesn't work very well" It probably does but we cannot understand how to do it properly

OK, enough rant! I'm setting off for a 50 miler today and hope for a perfect ride!

My table of the derailleur adjustments. The gears are listed from the granny gear (1st) to the hardest gear (11th), The major adjustment was done for Gear 10 (down from 170). (The adjustments to 9th and 8th were minimal). No adjustments for 1st-7th.

End-note: If anyone owns a 12-speed SRAM drivetrain, I would recommend going with SRAM. Otherwise, Wheeltop is a sweet alternative!

 

[2wheelsgood]

Q. I've used 3-finger brake levers all my life. How am I going to feel about 1-finger MTB levers on my SL 1?

I ask because my mechanic has proposed 2 all-Shimano brake upgrades — both affordable, both higher-performance than the stock Tektro brakes. (Details to follow.) Keeping my current levers isn't an option due to various brake line incompatibilities.

Problem is, the better-quality, higher-performance option I'm leaning toward requires 1-finger levers. He says these brakes will still be easier to activate than my stock brakes despite the shorter levers.

Thanks!

I have the Shimano XT and I loved the one finger control from the start. Brakes themselves are great when setup. Mine need some TLC after the winter

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I have the Shimano XT and I loved the one finger control from the start. Brakes themselves are great when setup. Mine need some TLC after the winter

Are these flat mount? If yes, I might consider an upgrade.

 

[stompandgo]

Agree, modulation's important to me, too. My mechanic said that the brake upgrades he's proposing have good modulation, but I should press him on that point.

Braking power and good modulation are not mutually exclusive. A proper braking setup has both.

 

[stompandgo]

If you are not bored already with the Wheeltop EDS OX2.0 system...

Let me first tell you how Shimano Di2 (MTB) and SRAM AXS electronic drivetrains do work. These big players don't give a s*it for the system flexibility. Currently, the drivetrains from the Big Two are all 12-speed and require expensive system components to work perfectly. If you install a SRAM AXS wireless derailleur then the cassette must be SRAM, too. The user (or a mechanic) installs the AXS derailleur and precisely aligns the derailleur guide pulley with the smallest cassette cog. As the cassette sprockets are precisely spaced, there is only one global adjustment for the derailleur. Say, you use the "SRAM AXS upgrade kit" that works with derailleur hangers. Say, your derailleur hanger got slightly bent. Yes, you can electronically adjust the derailleur but only for the smallest cassette cog; the spacing between the cassette sprockets won't change. And, if it is 12 speed, it is 12 speed. You cannot upgrade your bike with the latest SRAM 13-speed cassette. (It is similar to Shimano Di2 conceptually).

Spoken by someone who has never set up and used Di2. I have ridden and raced Di2 on every road bike that I've owned since the original Dura-Ace 7970 ten speed system. You are flat out wrong.

The system does rely on a reasonably straight derailleur hanger, and a cassette and chain in good condition. You can use other brands of chains with no degradation in performance. I used KMC chains exclusively. You can also use other brands of cassettes, but depending on the brand, shifting may not be as good as Shimano. That is because of the Hyperglide system and the patented shift ramps. So I stuck with Shimano cassettes. Dura-Ace derailleurs, KMC chains, and Ultegra cassettes. I constantly shifted under the load of a full tilt sprint and never missed a shift. Ever.

Every rear derailleur system that I have touched has a B-screw to adjust the pulley spacing between the smallest cog and the top derailleur pulley. Mechanical and electronic. 5,6,7,8,9,10,11, and 12 speed. It's a basic mechanical adjustment to make sure that the pulley and chain have enough clearance to shift. Once that is set properly, you align (Shimano calls it micro-adjust) the derailleur on a middle cog of the cassette, not the smallest. Which cog that is depends on whether it is a 10,11,or 12 speed system, but it's in the middle. As long as the derailleur hanger is straight, the B-screw is adjusted properly, and the chain and cassette are in good condition, you won't have to touch it again until parts need replacement.

I haven't ridden AXS other than to test customer bikes, but MTB racers that I know love the Transmission system. It's all that they will use.

I'm glad that you found your Swiss Army knife derailleur. I hope that it works out well for you. There are very good reasons why manufacturers optimize performance within their system, which was designed from the ground up as a system. That does not mean that non-system components cannot be used. Stop pushing this nonsense.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I do not deny you know the Di2 for road bikes very well. How about your knowledge of the Di2 for MTB or the SRAM AXS upgrade kit for derailleur hanger? (My brother owns the latter and uses it on his Marin with a SRAM drivetrain, non Transmission; he showed it to me, and we discussed the differences).

You cannot deny that:

• A Shimano 12-speed electronic derailleur must be used with a 12-speed cassette. It cannot be used for any other number of speed cassette even if it is Shimano
• The Shimano derailleur cannot be adjusted for each cassette gear individually
• The older Di2 drivetrains were wired
• Shimano derailleurs are GS or SGS. If you want to upgrade the cassette for a wider gear range then you have to upgrade the derailleur to SGS.

There are very good reasons why manufacturers optimize performance within their system, which was designed from the ground up as a system.

No, they do it because they are greedy bastards. SRAM are the same. If SRAM offers a new 13-speed cassette then you need a new derailleur. The Chinese can make better products than the West now. Heard of DJI Avinox?

The facts are:

• Wheeltop EDS OX2.0 is good for any cassette (3-14 speed)
• It has the capacity of 10 to 52T
• Each gear can be fine tuned individually
• Most of us own different drivetrains. We here are not pros to get a new bike with the Transmission or electronic 12 or 13 speed drivetrain on a whim and free. Wheeltop does all cassettes.

Stop pushing this nonsense.

How rude.

I can only wish you Stomp that you set off for a long ride -- the ride similar to the one I enjoy now. I set off for a 50 miler to check the Wheeltop performance to find it perfect. A little bit of fresh cold air could help you rethink your aggressive post.

 

[2wheelsgood]

Are these flat mount? If yes, I might consider an upgrade.

Yes, flat mount.

Went to the bike shop today to book the service for next week. I mentioned the noise on full lock and the mechanic said the brakes are toast and both rotors and pads will need to be changed. They must have got contaminated somehow.

He also said the head mount was loose and tightened that as well. He recommended not to ride the bike but I only live 10 mins away so rode it back.

Expecting a big bill as previously noted.

 

[stompandgo]

Hey Stefan,

You spit out a bunch of "facts" that were dead wrong. I called you on it. If that's rude, that's on you.

I've got lots of experience with Di2 for MTB. My Pinarello has Deore XT Di2. Wireless. It is everything that the road versions offer plus a clutch.

You ride a proprietary frame (Specialized) with a proprietary drive system (Specialized/Brose). Are Specialized "greedy bastards" because they designed a system that has limited upgrade capability? What makes Shimano and SRAM "greedy bastards"? Could it be that one of them is an American company? I'd like to think that you would not stoop that low.

Your Brose/Mastermind system is a proprietary system. Shimano Di2 is a proprietary system. SRAM AXS is a proprietary system. Your derailleur/pod is a subsystem that is designed for maximum compatibility alongside other proprietary systems. Will it work equally well as Shimano Di2 or SRAM AXS? Time will tell, but the only way to objectively find out is to compare them side by side.

 

[RunForTheHills]

"Embrace, extend, and extinguish" was a phrase that was found in Microsoft internal communications by the Justice Department when referring to open standards. You could argue that they have to make the system proprietary in order to optimize the performance, and that may be true to an extent. Engineering by committee doesn't produce much innovation and slows the design process way down. But I don't believe that is their only motivation. They want an edge on their competition.

Shimano wants to lock customers into their ecosystem as does SRAM. Wheeltop doesn't have a customer base to lock into an ecosystem. So they want to steal Shimano's and SRAM's customers. Perhaps their business model will change in the future if they gain a loyal customer base.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

You spit out a bunch of "facts" that were dead wrong. I called you on it.

You certainly know Shimano drivetrains by heart. You corrected me on several details, that's OK.

If that's rude, that's on you.

The aggressive and disrespectful writing style, proper for Herr Besserwisser. You have never worked with Wheeltop. And you won't for a longer time because of the Very Well Know Facts. I have gained the experience. In another thread, you assumed my derailleur hanger was bent. No, it wasn't. I simply didn't understand how the system worked until this Saturday's morning. Once I have understood it, the EDS works flawlessly. The shifting is crisp, quick, deadly precise and quiet. A 4 hour net riding time only ate 5% from the derailleur battery. Besides, I am not sure if you have ever worked with SRAM AXS upgrade kit but my brother did. Similarly to Wheeltop, you start with the smallest cog to calibrate.

Wheeltop derailleurs have the clutch described by the brand as a "damper", which cannot be switched off but that can be adjusted. It also has a Narrow Wide tension pulley, similarly to SRAM.

You ride a proprietary frame (Specialized) with a proprietary drive system (Specialized/Brose). Are Specialized "greedy bastards" because they designed a system that has limited upgrade capability?

This is a dishonest argument, described by Artur Schopenhauer as a "diversion". You choose an argument as good as comparing apples to oranges to divert the discourse into your favour. Yet, let me answer that.

Yes, Specialized are "greedy bastards". It was me coming up with the phrase "Ye Goode Olde Specialized" whenever we discover a stupid proprietary solution (such as the seat-post wedge) . However, Specialized has had (until recently) the best e-bike electronics in the world and the best warranty.

What makes Shimano and SRAM "greedy bastards"? Could it be that one of them is an American company? I'd like to think that you would not stoop that low.

Shimano, SRAM, Bosch, Specialized have lost the innovation capability on a grand scale. For instance, the derailleur systems. If a company such as SRAM decided to go with 11, 12 and 13-speed systems, they could make a Universal Derailleur (similar to their UDH concept!) that would programmatically serve all the three gear systems. No, SRAM or Shimano make a dedicated derailleur for 12 speed but let the 11-speed users alone. SRAM was so excited with the UDH and Transmission they only much later thought they could sell more by making the "upgrade kit" for derailleur hangers.

It is not only Shimano or SRAM to get locked in their thinking. It is also Bosch and Specialized. When DJI Avinox was presented, almost magically Specialized soon came up with the 3.1 motor, and Bosch released Gen 5?

Shimano wants to lock customers into their ecosystem as does SRAM. Wheeltop doesn't have a customer base to lock into an ecosystem. So they want to steal Shimano's and SRAM's customers. Perhaps their business model will change in the future if they gain a loyal customer base.

Yes, correct. I need to point to the fact Wheeltop systems are not cheap at all. The price of my kit was very similar to the 12-speed, SRAM locked AXS "upgrade kit" for derailleur hangers. What Wheeltop needs to do is to make a better documentation and a better app.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

mechanic said the brakes are toast and both rotors and pads will need to be changed. They must have got contaminated somehow.

Maybe there's a brake virus going around.
;^}

Oh well, just add money! To change to Shimano calipers to fix my SL 1's recurrent sticking rear piston problem, I also have to change everything else, including rotors. Well played, Shimano, well played!

Anyone, my mechanic didn't even mention a SRAM brake upgrade. Any reason to look there?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Anyone, my mechanic didn't even mention a SRAM brake upgrade. Any reason to look there?

My brother has SRAM brakes installed on his flat handlebar Marin DSX 3 gravel bike. He says: "A tragedy" (These brakes do not tolerate any contamination).

 

[stompandgo]

Maybe there's a brake virus going around.
;^}

Oh well, just add money! To change to Shimano calipers to fix my SL 1's recurrent sticking rear piston problem, I also have to change everything else, including rotors. Well played, Shimano, well played!

Anyone, my mechanic didn't even mention a SRAM brake upgrade. Any reason to look there?

Like Shimano, SRAM has various levels of brakes to meet price points. I have not seen more issues with SRAM than any other brand.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Like Shimano, SRAM has various levels of brakes to meet price points. I have not seen more issues with SRAM than any other brand.

Good intel. Does SRAM have any advantages over Shimano in middle-tier brakes?

 

[stompandgo]

Not in my experience. Price level for price level, there may be some differences. For example, one manufacturer may have calipers with finned brake pads. For your kind of riding, they're unnecessary.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Not in my experience. Price level for price level, there may be some differences. For example, one manufacturer may have calipers with finned brake pads. For your kind of riding, they're unnecessary.

One last question, I promise: Given the problem I'm trying to fix — recurrent sticking of one rear piston due to gunk build-up — would the wider pad clearance of the Shimano GRX RX820 caliper over the 410 be beneficial? The difference in price isn't an issue.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Good intel. Does SRAM have any advantages over Shimano in middle-tier brakes?

 

[stompandgo]

One last question, I promise: Given the problem I'm trying to fix — recurrent sticking of one rear piston due to gunk build-up — would the wider pad clearance of the Shimano GRX RX820 caliper over the 410 be beneficial? The difference in price isn't an issue.

I would think so. You may lose some bite at the start of travel. MTB brakes tend to be more precise. With the XTR, I get pad contact just after the lever moves. GRX can engage later. Once you get used to it, I think you'll be fine.