Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.

[Anomander Rake]

I have no dog in this fight and I'm neutral. I see the positives and negatives, although I personally would be wary about a large purchase (large >$125) on IGG. But everyone has their own comfort level and no one is forced to contribute, and crowdfunding can be an unsure bet.

I agree, this was my absolute last crowd funded product. I will buy my products from trusted sources from now on. I have bought quite a few products from alibaba and have been amazed at the level of professionalism and customer support.

 

[Llcjay]

An Open Letter to Storm Sondors
via: Kent M. Walker
Lewis Kohn and Walker LLP
15030 Avenue of Science, Suite 201
San Diego, CA 92128


Your campaign has failed to address business concerns which are integral to the delivery of a complete and safe product. As a public crowdfunding, you are obliged to operate with clarity, honesty, and transparency. As such;

1. Correct all misstatements made by the campaign as to represent the product fairly and accurately
   
2. Provide an accounting in total, and on a per unit basis;
   1. to include a provision to pay Agency 2.0
      1. actual advertising expenses up to 5% of gross revenue
         
      2. 10% of all gross revenue, less charge-backs, cancellations and returns
   2. to include payment in full to all vendors
   3. to meet your commitment to provide shipping at cost
   4. to provision for three years of customer service and support
      1. to include funds retained for repairs and returns
      2. to include adequate staffing and facilities for the same
   5. to provision independent lab certification of the battery, the frame, and the product in total
   6. to provision for a one year guarantee on the battery and three years for the bicycle
   7. to provision for $5,000,000 of product liability insurance, for a minimum of five years
3. Determine feasibility;
   1. Should the accounting reveal that this cannot be accomplished, refund remaining funds to purchasers on a prorated basis
4. To allow people to obtain a full refund anytime prior to delivery

Wow it seems your business has been impacted by Sondors incredible success.

So do you really think you have any legal standing, and do you worry about being held accountable for slander?



Just wondering

 

[stevenast]

Slander is spoken, Libel is written. Truth trumps both.

Wow it seems your business has been impacted by Sondors incredible success.

So do you really think you have any legal standing, and do you worry about being held accountable for slander?



Just wondering

 

[Llcjay]

Slander is spoken, Libel is written. Truth trumps both.

I just hope people understand that free speech is not always free

 

[JoePah]

I would have assumed good journalism is based on facts and a non-partial bias towards the subject.

I wonder what will happen after people start getting their bikes if they get them?

Like the Australians and all the Europeans..Me thinks many of the Sondor products will be ending up in Custom houses for failing to bring the bikes up to European and Australian standards as required by law.

Then there is the Canadians and their fight with UPS and it horrendous and fraudulent clearance and custom charges which is in a class action suit. Nice one Mr. Sondors, pick one of the worst freight carriers in Canadian history.

The utter lack of good questions still remain to be answered both from the Advertising team and GOSONDORS because Mr. Sondors has not been forth coming. No wondors he has nicknamed himself storm because all I can see is Storm clouds over this entire messy campaign or should I say Scampaign.

Then lets us not forget the Spampaign pulled by that infamous Sondors closed facebook team who utterly failed in their poor attempt to muzzle all the honest buyers of the Sondors ebikes. For more than a week their team of trolls spammed the comment section of the Sondors Campaign to avoid all the questions of show up more picture, videos and please answer our questions about, warranty etc etc etc..

Sincerely...
....The Incredible Hulk....
...Raging again...

ps:...I wonder what will happen to a lithium battery on a hot day sandwiched in a restricted space between your legs, with very little air circulating around the battery. It is very important to keep a lithium
COOL while it discharges. It heats up rather dramatically or so I am told, I could be wrong...

LOL.. Do you own an eBike? Did you fund the Sondors eBike campaign?

I don't know how you normally buy over the internet, but what I do is research the product and the seller BEFORE I BUY!!!

And if you didn't pay Sondors why do you care????

The fact is too many people are careless and buy based on price alone, then they feel like the Seller owes them the world, or a perfect product.

Sondors never sold an eBike before, had very little experience building them and is selling on IGG as a crowdfunding excercise.. Anyone could have vetted all his claims and decided if risking $500 was worth it.

Anyone who didn't check or figured it was worth the risk has no one to blame for what they receive but themselves.

People should take responsibility for their own decisions.. Life is a lot more satisfying when you're not the victim.

PS I did all the research and I asked the questions and decided it wasn't worth it, but gave them some money just to keep track. I think it looks good so far.

 

[Anomander Rake]

LOL.. Do you own an eBike? Did you fund the Sondors eBike campaign?

I don't know how you normally buy over the internet, but what I do is research the product and the seller BEFORE I BUY!!!

And if you didn't pay Sondors why do you care????

The fact is too many people are careless and buy based on price alone, then they feel like the Seller owes them the world, or a perfect product.

Sondors never sold an eBike before, had very little experience building them and is selling on IGG as a crowdfunding excercise.. Anyone could have vetted all his claims and decided if risking $500 was worth it.

Anyone who didn't check or figured it was worth the risk has no one to blame for what they receive but themselves.

People should take responsibility for their own decisions.. Life is a lot more satisfying when you're not the victim.

Very well said and if everyone had followed your statement above then no one should really complain. It was my fault I did not do anything like you mentioned above. Oh well my fault not Sondors. But I have learned a valuable lesson...

 

[FTC Complaint]

Wow it seems your business has been impacted by Sondors incredible success.

So do you really think you have any legal standing, and do you worry about being held accountable for slander?
Just wondering

What exactly within the following would be slanderous or libelous?" Why would I need "standing" to express either the truth or an opinion? What if I provided consideration to the campaign? What if it was advantageous to have the following issues addressed? Would it be fair to have transparency?

1. Correct all misstatements made by the campaign as to represent the product fairly and accurately
2. Provide an accounting in total, and on a per unit basis;
   1. to include a provision to pay Agency 2.0
      1. actual advertising expenses up to 5% of gross revenue
      2. 10% of all gross revenue, less charge-backs, cancellations and returns
   2. to include payment in full to all vendors
   3. to meet your commitment to provide shipping at cost
   4. to provision for three years of customer service and support
      1. to include funds retained for repairs and returns
      2. to include adequate staffing and facilities for the same
   5. to provision independent lab certification of the battery, the frame, and the product in total
   6. to provision for a one year guarantee on the battery and three years for the bicycle
   7. to provision for $5,000,000 of product liability insurance, for a minimum of five years
3. Determine feasibility;
   1. Should the accounting reveal that this cannot be accomplished, refund remaining funds to purchasers on a prorated basis
4. To allow people to obtain a full refund anytime prior to delivery

Tell me what is untrue or disadvantageous to the consumer in the above list? Answer any of the questions listed.

 

[FTC Complaint]

LOL.. Do you own an eBike? Did you fund the Sondors eBike campaign?

I don't know how you normally buy over the internet, but what I do is research the product and the seller BEFORE I BUY!!!

And if you didn't pay Sondors why do you care????

The fact is too many people are careless and buy based on price alone, then they feel like the Seller owes them the world, or a perfect product.

Sondors never sold an eBike before, had very little experience building them and is selling on IGG as a crowdfunding excercise.. Anyone could have vetted all his claims and decided if risking $500 was worth it.

Anyone who didn't check or figured it was worth the risk has no one to blame for what they receive but themselves.

People should take responsibility for their own decisions.. Life is a lot more satisfying when you're not the victim.

PS I did all the research and I asked the questions and decided it wasn't worth it, but gave them some money just to keep track. I think it looks good so far.

Or, Agency 2.0 and/or IGG could have run a credit report on Sondors! before entrusting him with $850,000 and $6,000,000 respectively.

 

[DWEBiker]

no way i would order a bike from Indiegaga , but thats just me personally

 

[Ann M.]

@FTC Complaint and for all of us who do the math; please check out this related post from the 'Wave campaign' This is from someone who does business with vendors in China regularly--its interesting. http://electricbikereview.com/commu...nother-storm-indiegogo.1607/page-6#post-23939

 

[Credible Hulk]

Folks, @Credible Hulk has resolved his angst and is keeping on the refund track. We need to keep on the Due Diligence track, please, rather than veering off on this tangent.

Thank you! Message received; I won't talk about my "refund track" on this thread anymore. I don't have much more to say about refunds at this time anyway.

I did create a separate thread to discuss refunds a while ago, I guess that would be the place to go if you want to discuss refunds?

On another topic - the UPS charges for Canadians. I'm researching ways to avoid these illegal "brokerage" and other fees, and I've asked GoSondors to see if they'd be able to use another courier for shipments to Canada. If I receive any useful information I'll post it here, unless it's outside the scope of this thread.

 

[Chas]

20-25% of the gross sales go to marketing (5% IGG, 3% paypal, 5% Google, 10% Agency 2.0, x% litigation), with 75% to 80% remaining. What remains is about $480 a bike shipping and all. That is why you are not going to get (as was contracted for) the lesser of the shipping amount paid, versus actual shipping costs. That is also why Storm stated that if he pays Agency 2.0 he does not know if he has enough money to fulfill the project. Storm is playing fast and loose with your money, and your safety.

I'm not sure Sondors calculated these costs - his margins look kinda skinny to cover those. If you have any specific numbers, please share.

Here is what I have seen:
$200,000 for marketing costs (per Agency 2.0). paid
$220,000 to IGG (assuming their typical 4% cost on $5.5M sales)
$524,000 to Agency 2.0 for their services (not paid)

those numbers are basically from the court filing. That is about 15% of the sales costs

 

[Chas]

One of my biggest educations is learning the low level of journalism in the internet age. This is like seeing behind the curtain; rarely have I know the back story in such detail while reading articles like these

Here is an article from last week:
http://www.psfk.com/2015/05/ebike-sondors-affordable-electric-bike.html

What I learned from this “article”

Bike was created by Agency 2.0!
- Wow, that is NEW NEWS!!!

Battery: Waterproof lithium Ion battery
- Waterproof battery? Maybe someone should give the battery an IPX7 WATERPROOF rating test to see if it passes. ;-)

30-50 mile range and 90 minute charging time
- need we say more on this?

Hydraulic disc brakes.
- I'm starting to think that no journalist knows what hydraulic means

The Sondors is now "heavier than commuting bikes" so that it can handle snow, sand, and wet surfaces, and "off road conditions like mountain paths."
- I have tried these things on a light 350 watt single speed bike, and let’s just say it doesn't work well. In fact, if you force the issue for long enough (5-10 minutes) you will burn out the motor and/or controller).


"but readers and potential buyers should be extremely wearisome."
Is English the primary language of the writer? Should this say "buyers should be wary"? Maybe wearisome is a Freudian slip. ;-)


I am surprised that articles like this are still coming out with such false information, but it is the plethora of these articles that prompted people to purchase the bike in the first place (I was sucked in originally by the Yahoo article).

 

[FTC Complaint]

I'm not sure Sondors calculated these costs - his margins look kinda skinny to cover those. If you have any specific numbers, please share.

Here is what I have seen:
$200,000 for marketing costs (per Agency 2.0). paid
$220,000 to IGG (assuming their typical 4% cost on $5.5M sales)
$524,000 to Agency 2.0 for their services (not paid)

those numbers are basically from the court filing. That is about 15% of the sales costs

I read the contract, which is an addendum to the Agency 2.0 lawsuit; I think it would be interpreted to mean 15% of gross; the lower of actual to 5% of gross for media placement and 10% for agency commissions. IGG would be 4% plus 3% to 5% for paypal and credit card processing.

 

[wa5]

QUOTE FROM IGG PAGE.

Cary McHugh
1 hour ago
The bikes are being loaded in containers. On their way to port.

END QUOTE.

IF this is true, they must have upped their production speed drastically. as their "production" seemed glacial.

 

[Brambor]

based on what did you think their production seemed glacial?

 

[Anomander Rake]

well at least the pics show good faith partially. Better to show something rather than nothing. Good for you Mr.Sondors. I bet your very proud of your achievement....Nice to see you with so many of your babies about you.

 

[wa5]

I based my thoughts on the vision from the production video, also from Biknut / Theodore Voltaires' comments on Endless sphere in which he claims that the facility building these bikes can make 1 million per annum.
The production Video. seemed to be moving far more slowly than I felt it should, Of course it may have been during "ramp up" phase, this weeks production speed may be far faster.

looking at the latest update on Go Sondors they would appear to be shipping something

http://gosondors.com

The cynic in me sees hundreds of Boxes, not hundreds of Ebikes, Given that we have already seen most parts for the Bike. I'd take it on faith that they aren't full of hot air

 

[Brambor]

clicked on the link you gave ... amazing. not sure what the reality is but from the postings the dude seems to be doing it all singlehandedly.

 

[wa5]

Interesting that Sondors continues to make reference to "Buying" bikes. I wonder if such references could come back to bite them IF this whole thing ends up in court. could these be used to argue against crowd funding and for out right sales, and the consumer protection that offers?