Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.

Why aren't more members this forum asking these same questions? There's a number of posters saying "enough already, be quiet".

Why do they label those who are just pointing out the large number of pitfalls as "negative". I say trying to enlighten people of all the problems they are very likely getting into if they support crowdsourced ebikes .... That's providing positive information.
 
There are provisions in the import laws that allow for single 'test/demo' product or an item that is not for re-sale, thus sliding past some of the protective limiters that you both mention. @Credible Hulk and @FTC Complaint , it might be that our Chinese import savvy Sonders is utilizing this loophole given that every bike represents an individual sale and supposedly involves only the manufacturing plant and the investor.

However that's not going to help our Canadian friends if I understand it correctly. The various international regulations are what's crashing the Wave also, aren't they?
 
The Canadians may have more stringent laws in place than in the US concerning importing 'onesies' so I will make no assumptions about their regulations. My knowledge is based on experience with US law.
 
There are provisions in the import laws that allow for single 'test/demo' product or an item that is not for re-sale, thus sliding past some of the protective limiters that you both mention. @Credible Hulk and @FTC Complaint , it might be that our Chinese import savvy Sonders is utilizing this loophole given that every bike represents an individual sale and supposedly involves only the manufacturing plant and the investor.

I not familiar with that area of the law; but I think it has to do with the requirement for having a "certificate of conformity" that has a series of specific elements.

Elements Required in a GCC

  1. Identification of the product covered by this certificate:
    Describe the product(s) covered by this certification in enough detail to match the certificate to each product it covers and no others.
  2. Citation to each consumer product safety regulation to which this product is being certified:
    The certificate must identify separately each consumer product safety rule administered by the Commission that is applicable to the product.
  3. Identification of the U.S. importer or domestic manufacturer certifying compliance of the product:
    Provide the name, full mailing address, and telephone number of the importer or U.S. domestic manufacturer certifying the product.
  4. Contact information for the individual maintaining records of test results:
    Provide the name, full mailing address, e-mail address, and telephone number of the person maintaining test records in support of the certification.
  5. Date and place where this product was manufactured:
    For the date(s) when the product was manufactured, provide at least the month and year. For the place of manufacture provide at least the city (or administrative region) and country where the product was manufactured or finally assembled. If the same manufacturer operates more than one location in the same city, provide the street address of the factory.
  6. Provide the date(s) and place when the product was tested for compliance with the consumer product safety rule(s) cited above:
    Provide the location(s) of the testing and the date(s) of the test(s) or test report(s) on which certification is being based.
  7. Identification of any third party laboratory on whose testing the certificate depends:

The set of rules would be here;

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=9d93c2f8204ee9bfa29b7750f0ad3ddf&node=pt16.2.1512&rgn=div5
 
I think this is the exact regulation Sondors would be subject to;

16 CFR § 1110.7 Who must certify and provide a certificate.
(a) Imports. Except as otherwise provided in a specific standard, in the case of a product manufactured outside the United States, only the importer must certify in accordance with, and provide the certificate required by, CPSA section 14(a) as applicable, that the product or shipment in question complies with all applicable CPSA rules and all similar rules, bans, standards, and regulations applicable to the product or shipment under any other Act enforced by the Commission.
(b) Domestic products. Except as otherwise provided in a specific standard, in the case of a product manufactured in the United States, only the manufacturer must certify in accordance with, and provide the certificate required by, CPSA section 14(a) as applicable, that the product or shipment in question complies with all applicable CPSA rules and all similar rules, bans, standards, and regulations applicable to the product or shipment under any other Act enforced by the Commission.
(c) Availability of certificates
(1) Imports. In the case of imports, the certificate required by CPSA section 14(a) must be available to the Commission from the importer as soon as the product or shipment itself is available for inspection in the United States.
(2) Domestic products. In the case of domestic products, the certificate required by CPSA section 14(a) must be available to the Commission from the manufacturer prior to introduction of the product or shipment in question into domestic commerce.

The process makes an identifiable party responsible for holding the testing information, and it provides a trail for later accountability, post sales. I am sure a good number of Chinese firms dummy this type of documentation. Although I have seen (and are more aware) of FDA regulatory filings from Chinese companies for medical devices such as battery operated wheelchairs. Its interesting to note that a company I know of sells about $500,000 of illegal electric wheelchairs into the US market that are direct shipped on a one by one basis from China to the destination; but I also know of another company with good documentation that had a series of FDA action letters.

Chinese electric wheelchair with FDA medical device papers FDA 510 (they had some issues with the FDA after they had an inspection in China if I remember);

https://www.medline.com/product/K2-Basic-Wheelchairs/Standard/Z05-PF78356


Chinese electric wheelchair w/o FDA certification - gray market!

http://www.ezlitecruiser.com/
 
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I hope Sondors and crew will be legally compelled to ensure that their products (ebike and batteries) meet the regulatory requirements of all of the countries they're being shipped to. If not, this will create a new headache for customers, assuming non-compliant products are allowed in by Customs. It will cost money for people to bring their ebike up to standard, or when they are stopped by the cops for riding an illegal ebike. If they don't clear the border? Don't hold your breath waiting for Sondors to return your money.

I'm wondering what motivated the decision to courier all of these ebikes from the US instead of shipping them directly to ports in different countries. I'm guessing that items shipped out of the US instead of China may not receive as much scrutiny from Customs.

Most people believe they're getting a better deal on the Sondors than they actually are. Once all extra fees and costs are factored in - shipping, brokerage and customs fees, taxes, and any cost to bring the ebike up to regulatory standards - you might end up paying the same as what you'd have paid to a local shop, for a better quality product with warranty and post-sales support. And a fraction of the drama and hassles.
 
Read a Trek manual and you will find instructions on how to use the product, inspect the frame, and how the product must not be used. On a fat ebike these considerations would even be more important.

I am guessing that they will include the instructions that come with the components, like the motor, battery etc. Not sure if they'll bother creating a dedicated manual for the Sondors as a whole. Many Sondors clients are new to ebikes, so I can foresee a lot of frustration if there's no proper manual.

Why has the press, failed to ask any questions?

Today's yellow tabloid media doesn't touch a story unless it generates sensationalistic headlines. In other words, no celebrities, disaster or death = no coverage.
 
In addition there's the element that Ebikes are generally seen as a fancy toy here in the US instead of regular transportation. Bikes as a whole are viewed as a recreational item here. Thus limited interest from the press except for the novelty aspect. Sad.
 
bikes = recreation

ebikes = cheating at that type of recreation

Automobile is still king in the U.S.

Infrastructure supports automobiles first.

Those are some established opinions and realities that must be overcome for greater adoption, as Ann wisely posted.
 
See if I get all 47 pages correctly. Buying and crowding at the same time confuses me.

Sometime ago I went to gosondors and wanted to buy a bike and got sent to Indiegogo as there was no provision for actually buying my future bike. So I bought one and now look at this mess, maybe should have done it the other way around.

I will not bore you with a repeat of all the problems in the sondors campaign.

I see Sondors has incorporated his company Pacific Storm Inc in Delaware but no way to contact him except through his lawyer. His company and or Ivars has no contact address or phone again except his lawyer. His support is 2 sources, Through Zendesk and or his Public relations outfit Spec pr and their rep Greg Dawson. Again hard to contact those people except through email. Greg Dawson does not accept phones calls and all calls goes to voice mail.

So if things so wrong, what then. Say the battery blows up and I am injured...Want a refund, the motor breaks down.
 
That's the whole sheebang, Neone! There are no guarantees and definitely no refund. Although Sonders posts on the IGG site that he is shipping, none of the boxes on that truck in the picture have any binding straps like the one that he's standing next to. There's no clear statement about any warranty either. One does not buy from a crowdfunded campaign, you donate and 'hopefully' get a perk/thank you for donating. Thus, backed by the statement on the gosonders.com website and IGG's explanation of the terms of a campaign, there are no refunds. That's created a lot of anxiety or angst depending upon your state of mind among the folks posting on this thread :).
 
That's the whole sheebang, Neone! There are no guarantees and definitely no refund. Although Sonders posts on the IGG site that he is shipping, none of the boxes on that truck in the picture have any binding straps like the one that he's standing next to. There's no clear statement about any warranty either. One does not buy from a crowdfunded campaign, you donate and 'hopefully' get a perk/thank you for donating. Thus, backed by the statement on the gosonders.com website and IGG's explanation of the terms of a campaign, there are no refunds. That's created a lot of anxiety or angst depending upon your state of mind among the folks posting on this thread :).

I said I would not post again on this thread but since it is still going strong let me say this...
I believe the binding straps were for "loading" only. Afterwards they were cut off. Also, it was obviously a quick and sloppy job of putting on the binding straps which may point to temporary.
One might ask "why not leave them on"? There lies the question??? Maybe there is a good reason for this. I can't think of one, can you?
 
Sometime ago I went to gosondors and wanted to buy a bike and got sent to Indiegogo as there was no provision for actually buying my future bike. So I bought one and now look at this mess, maybe should have done it the other way around.

You have hit on one of the key problems that snagged so many people, and so many web sites like Yahoo.

The web page makes it look like you are “purchasing” a bike, when in fact you are “funding” a campaign. Very different usages of your money.

Yahoo later had several retractions, one of which said:
“The Sondors eBike Indiegogo campaign may look like a product catalog page, but it’s not... Don’t think of it as shopping; it’s really more like gambling.”

Hopefully your gamble will pay off. Certainly in February it was unclear what we were buying (certainly not the bike advertised in the video). Assuming all of his updates are truthful you could end up with a fun bike (assuming you only ride it on hard flat surfaces).
 
FYI, the stuff I have bought from China had no warranty, no directions (other than a wiring diagram), no product support, no liability, no nothin. I am an Engineer and tinkerer, and with help of an online community I was able to figure it out. I really don’t see Sondors providing more product support in the future than he has in the past. None of his contacts in China are going to support what they manufacture. You get the box delivered and you are mostly on your own. Maybe people can help each other on a Sondors discussion group – that is your best bet. Anything is possible, but in this case past performance is an indication of probable future results.
 
I said I would not post again on this thread but since it is still going strong let me say this...
I believe the binding straps were for "loading" only. Afterwards they were cut off. Also, it was obviously a quick and sloppy job of putting on the binding straps which may point to temporary.
One might ask "why not leave them on"? There lies the question??? Maybe there is a good reason for this. I can't think of one, can you?
Yes I can think of a reason: the boxes appeared to be bound together with 3 boxes in each binding. If you look at a picture of the container, 8 boxes fit across. Perhaps that's the reason why they removed the bindings. This is just a guess.

One other guess - maybe there will be checking of each box at port (like for contraband items).
 
That's the whole sheebang, Neone! There are no guarantees and definitely no refund. Although Sonders posts on the IGG site that he is shipping, none of the boxes on that truck in the picture have any binding straps like the one that he's standing next to. There's no clear statement about any warranty either. One does not buy from a crowdfunded campaign, you donate and 'hopefully' get a perk/thank you for donating. Thus, backed by the statement on the gosonders.com website and IGG's explanation of the terms of a campaign, there are no refunds. That's created a lot of anxiety or angst depending upon your state of mind among the folks posting on this thread :).

Thank you very much Ann for your reply. I thought I was buying my bike when they sent me to Indiegogo. I am afraid I was very naive about indiegogo and up until now never heard of it. It was on the phone the next day after submitting my payment data that I found out about the non-refund and immediately phoned My credit card provider. They refused to block my payment from Indiegogo even though they had not charged me yet. They told me I would have to wait 30 days before I could dispute the charge. And Indiegogo only confirmed I had an account and my account was billable. So prior to the transaction going through I was stuck right from the get go.

Re those Banding straps. Usually cargo is placed on pallets, the boxes are strapped together and then loaded onto a truck. Very few companies would band 3 bikes, cut the bands and then hand bomb them onto the back of a Shipping container. That would be extremely weird to say the least, why band them only to remove them?
 
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FYI, the stuff I have bought from China had no warranty, no directions (other than a wiring diagram), no product support, no liability, no nothin. I am an Engineer and tinkerer, and with help of an online community I was able to figure it out. I really don’t see Sondors providing more product support in the future than he has in the past. None of his contacts in China are going to support what they manufacture. You get the box delivered and you are mostly on your own. Maybe people can help each other on a Sondors discussion group – that is your best bet. Anything is possible, but in this case past performance is an indication of probable future results.
Good point! One of the best reasons to belong to EBR is helping each other. The information found here is wide and varied. A great many e-bikers are helped here, far more than just the membership. I would suggest it's far better to get answers to your questions here than to ask the many newbies on FB. There's nothing proprietary about the sondors, it's just a bike with e.
 
You have hit on one of the key problems that snagged so many people, and so many web sites like Yahoo.

The web page makes it look like you are “purchasing” a bike, when in fact you are “funding” a campaign. Very different usages of your money.

Yahoo later had several retractions, one of which said:
“The Sondors eBike Indiegogo campaign may look like a product catalog page, but it’s not... Don’t think of it as shopping; it’s really more like gambling.”

Hopefully your gamble will pay off. Certainly in February it was unclear what we were buying (certainly not the bike advertised in the video). Assuming all of his updates are truthful you could end up with a fun bike (assuming you only ride it on hard flat surfaces).

I would argue that it is a purchase.. intentionally 'clouding' the purchase with the term "perk" as to disenfranchise consumers from their rights is unconscionable. It might be held that, they are intentionally trying to "steal" your right to recourse and that is so blatantly unfair that that position would be unjustified and thus held to be an invalid contractual term and condition.

2-302. Unconscionable contract or Clause.
contractor any clause of the contract to have been unconscionable at the time it was made the court may refuse to enforce the contract, or it may enforce the remainder of the contract without the unconscionable clause, or it may so limit the application of any unconscionable clause as to avoid any unconscionable result.

contractor any clause thereof may be unconscionable the parties shall be afforded a reasonable opportunity to present evidence as to its commercial setting, purpose and effect to aid the court in making the determination.
 
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FYI, the stuff I have bought from China had no warranty, no directions (other than a wiring diagram), no product support, no liability, no nothin. I am an Engineer and tinkerer, and with help of an online community I was able to figure it out. I really don’t see Sondors providing more product support in the future than he has in the past. None of his contacts in China are going to support what they manufacture. You get the box delivered and you are mostly on your own. Maybe people can help each other on a Sondors discussion group – that is your best bet. Anything is possible, but in this case past performance is an indication of probable future results.

To provide a consumer product, in volume, an in such a incomplete manner would be both dangerous and illegal.
 
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I think the bands are a non issue, the opaque band is just there to keep the 3 boxes on the pallet..then removed as the boxes must be hand stacked in the 40' container to fit what looks like 168 boxes. The yellow bands weren't removed. Getting the boxes off won't be a picnic though ...
 
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