Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.

[FTC Complaint]

FTC,
What are the repercussions... if it turns out Sondors has shipped the batter packs within the bike boxes?

My guess is he is going to ship the batteries with the bikes, in the same package. The packages are so heavy they are going to be by sea and land only. I just looked it up, most of the fines are slap on the wrist.

Sondors operates without concern for regulations, ramifications, or judgment, he is judgment proof.

 

[pxpaulx]

FTC,
What are the repercussions... if it turns out Sondors has shipped the batter packs within the bike boxes?

That is a good question - I searched for 'maximum watt hours you can ship' and it appears via groun UPS allows up to 300 watt hours. The campaign lists a 36v 9ah (approximately!) battery - perhaps the approximately will come into play in this area and the actual battery ends up being 8.3ah which would put it right under their regulations. Alternately they may have discussed with UPS and revealed they all wiggle room within a margin of error on bulk shipments. (I would guess they are either doing the former, or are simply going to send them without proper labeling).

 

[George S.]

Sondors operates without concern for regulations, ramifications, or judgment, he is judgment proof.

I would respectfully point out that around five days into the launch, February, people in the thread "Say Hello to Sondors" had figured out almost every legal dodge they would use. Sondors will never own the bikes. There will be thousands of owners and they own the bikes as they sit in the shipping containers at this very moment. Whatever gripe you have is with those thousands of owners.

Of the four recent campaigns, two have chosen not to use the drop ship model, and two have. The cheapest bikes have chosen that model. They are drop shipping.

 

[wa5]

George, are you saying that any fines that may arise from batteries shipping inappropriately / illegally might be levied upon the customer?

 

[George S.]

George, are you saying that any fines that may arise from batteries shipping inappropriately / illegally might be levied upon the customer?

I'm not sure UPS much cares, or what they would do. UPS could not levy a fine. It's just pure speculation. There are things that could go wrong, and they increase exponentially shipping into Canada and the EU.

We don't know where the batteries are. I wonder how hot it gets inside one of those containers? Might depend on where it was, how exposed to the sun. I guess I'd be hoping I didn't get one of the Easy Bake batteries.

http://www.toysrus.com/buy/cooking-baking/easy-bake-ultimate-oven-purple-a5742-28523176

 

[FTC Complaint]

That is a good question - I searched for 'maximum watt hours you can ship' and it appears via groun UPS allows up to 300 watt hours. The campaign lists a 36v 9ah (approximately!) battery - perhaps the approximately will come into play in this area and the actual battery ends up being 8.3ah which would put it right under their regulations. Alternately they may have discussed with UPS and revealed they all wiggle room within a margin of error on bulk shipments. (I would guess they are either doing the former, or are simply going to send them without proper labeling).

Yep, they are going to squeak into sending them "as a battery with the product" much the same way that cell phone batteries slip in. That is why airliners have unilaterally closed that loophole of their own volition (which was the major change, as opposed to regulation changes). Airliners realize the huge fire risk in transporting these batteries.

UPS Has advice for keeping each individual shipment smaller than 24 cells and 5KG


http://www.ups.com/media/news/en/shipping_batteries.pdf

Lithium Batteries Packed with or Contained in Equipment If you wish to ship a package containing a device that either has lithium batteries installed in it, or has its batteries packaged separately, there are similar safety regulations covering these types of shipments. By keeping the number of devices and batteries to a minimum, you will simplify your compliance requirements. U.S. rules become more complex when packages contain over 5 kg net weight of batteries or exceed a total of 24 cells or 12 batteries. (Guidance in this document is restricted to smaller shipments. For packages that exceed 5 kg net weight of batteries, or quantities over 24 cells or 12 batteries, you must consult the U.S. DOT Hazardous Materials Regulations, 49 CFR 172.102, Special Provision 188.)

 

[Brambor]

good

 

[wa5]

are we sure that the batteries aren't shipping separately?

 

[Brambor]

Yes

 

[Ann M.]

I'm not sure UPS much cares, or what they would do. UPS could not levy a fine. It's just pure speculation. There are things that could go wrong, and they increase exponentially shipping into Canada and the EU.

FYI, at customs in California when the product is coming off of the ships, if docs and product don't match or if there is incorrect packaging or labeling it is not allowed forward and is either returned to the originator, in this case, in China or destroyed. I've run into this when buying Li powered light kits that took double the amount of time to get to the shop. So NO, there is no fine levied on the buyer. They are not responsible for the proper packaging and docs, that's the shipper's realm.

 

[Ann M.]

For Ebikes that come with a lithium battery, not a kit setup, the battery is shipped with the bike, but must have its own special packaging within the ebike box and proper docs. That is how every ebike our shop has received is packaged. Kits that I've ordered direct from say, Golden Motor, in China ships the motor & wiring harness in one box and the battery arrives separately with its own docs.

 

[scmike]

That is a good question - I searched for 'maximum watt hours you can ship' and it appears via groun UPS allows up to 300 watt hours. The campaign lists a 36v 9ah (approximately!) battery - perhaps the approximately will come into play in this area and the actual battery ends up being 8.3ah which would put it right under their regulations. Alternately they may have discussed with UPS and revealed they all wiggle room within a margin of error on bulk shipments. (I would guess they are either doing the former, or are simply going to send them without proper labeling).

Over on gosondors, they mention 350WH, 360WH and 8.8AH (316.8 WH) in regards to their battery... which is it? All, still over the 300W limit... Seems like UPS has a higher limit than FedEx (100WH)... although I couldn't find the specific UPS guideline... for ground shipping... By air is much stricter/lower WHs ..

 

[pxpaulx]

Over on gosondors, they mention 350WH, 360WH and 8.8AH (316.8 WH) in regards to their battery... which is it? All, still over the 300W limit... Seems like UPS has a higher limit than FedEx (100WH)... although I couldn't find the specific UPS guideline... for ground shipping... By air is much stricter/lower WHs ..

Is that really what they say in their official specs? That is pretty sad! It should read 350 watt motor, 36v battery and 8.8ah (the 316.8 WH would be correct - 36v X 8.8ah).

 

[Ann M.]

The battery label I've seen that makes me giggle is the 350w one, that's motor labeling. So it should read 350WH for watt hour output. We won't really know will we what the truth is until we all have that darn battery & bike in our hands! You can't ship ebike batteries by air.

 

[FTC Complaint]

FYI, at customs in California when the product is coming off of the ships, if docs and product don't match or if there is incorrect packaging or labeling it is not allowed forward and is either returned to the originator, in this case, in China or destroyed. I've run into this when buying Li powered light kits that took double the amount of time to get to the shop. So NO, there is no fine levied on the buyer. They are not responsible for the proper packaging and docs, that's the shipper's realm.

I wonder how vigilant they are; what percentage of non-conforming good slip in.

 

[George S.]

So customs will take the drop shipping at face value and probably just treat it as an individual buying something? The battery can be inside the box as long as it is documented, that is, the size/type of the battery is not their concern? And UPS may not care much if the battery capacity is 5% over their limit?

Apple recalled a bunch of Beats Bluetooth speakers. Battery issue. You just never know with lithium.

I did some research on temperatures in shipping containers in the summer. It's generally pretty decent, unless you get directly in the sun on some side or on top. The container can sit around, waiting to load, but same deal on the temps. Useful to know, at least to me.

 

[Chas]

Over on gosondors, they mention 350WH, 360WH and 8.8AH (316.8 WH) in regards to their battery... which is it? All, still over the 300W limit... Seems like UPS has a higher limit than FedEx (100WH)... although I couldn't find the specific UPS guideline... for ground shipping... By air is much stricter/lower WHs ..

I'm not sure why the fuss over the battery shipping. Larger lithium batteries are shipped from china all the time. Yes, they need special handling and have a higher shipping price tag.

As for Sondor's specs, He is pretty clear: It is a 8.8AH 36volt battery with 10 amp hours and Samsung cells for approximately 9ah that can be charged at a maxim of 4.4 amps, but will be charged at 5 amps to get the 90 minute charge time. What is confusing about that????

(no you don't need to answer that question)

FYI. 10s4p is typically going to be 316.8 WH

 

[stevenast]

Let's talk about your cycling expectations for your first ride on your new ebike. Will you provide video or pictures to us of your unboxing? Are your plans for ebiking to commute or just the average weekend putt-putt around the neighborhood? There's plenty of cycling topics to talk about for this thread.

Sondors fact finding, due diligence, scrutiny.

 

[wa5]

J.R. said: Link Removed
Let's talk about your cycling expectations for your first ride on your new ebike. Will you provide video or pictures to us of your unboxing? Are your plans for ebiking to commute or just the average weekend putt-putt around the neighborhood? There's plenty of cycling topics to talk about for this thread. END QUOTE.

Actually, there aren't. this is a thread about fact finding on the Sondors Ebike. and on Sondors himself, as it relates to the bike. there really is no room on this thread for talking about other subjects. Court and Ann have already wasted enough time cleaning it up.

(tried deleting this, as Stevenast already said the same thing, but sometimes I cant get such things to work as they should on this site )

 

[JoePah]

The naysayers will have to look for for some new mud to throw.

Their bias is exposed:

1. Storm shipped the bikes on by the promised day of May 2015.. Amazing feat for any cf eBike product.. And to ship around 5000 eBikes on time is quite an accomplishment.

2. Storm made some nice upgrades during production, including Pedal Assist.. That should increase range by 50%, and give the bike around 20 miles or more.

Any snarking comments on range? The $6000 Felt Fat bike claims a 60 mile range and I don't see anyone validating than nonsense... The tax alone on that Felt is more than the Storm bike.

Guess the critics now will pick on orange peel in the paint and underinflated tires.