Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.
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Anomander Rake
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This campaign Storm clouds will never go away. I can see a class action suit launched against not only Storm Sondors but both advertising Agencies. Especially the current one run by Greg Dawson. Mr Dawson has been stone walling many people in this campaign. His utter lack of accountability is huge. He is the go to guy it seems, when people mail gosondors.com he is the man most likely to reply as he has numerous times with me. In California there is such a thing called the California Consumer Legal remedies act which states:
The California Consumers Legal Remedies Act ("CLRA") is the name for California Civil Code §§ 1750 et seq.[1] The CLRA declare unlawful several "methods of competition and unfair or deceptive acts or practices undertaken by any person in a transaction intended to result or which results in the sale or lease of goods or services to any consumer".[2] Forbidden practices include misrepresenting the source of the good and services, representing reconditioned goods as new, advertising goods without having the expected demand in stock, representing a repair is needed when it is not, representing rebates that have hidden conditions, and misrepresenting the authority of a salesman to close a deal.
California Department of Consumer Affairs is very explicit about the rights of consumers within their state.
http://www.dca.ca.gov
Of course there is a federal Consumer protection department:
https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/#crnt&panel1-1
Indiegogo has many reports at the Better Business Bureau....Refunds are available but the consumer has to undergo a dispute resolution process in case the customer does not get what was promised as a perk.
Here is a message from indiegogo outlining their policy of disputes:
Contributions made through Indiegogo are transactions that take place between the campaign owner, contributor, and payment processor, and are non-refundable by Indiegogo, as stated in our Terms of Use (www.indiegogo.com/about/terms.) Therefore, we recommend the contributor reach out directly to the campaign owner if they are interested in receiving a refund.
By creating a campaign on Indiegogo, the campaign owner agrees to use funds and fulfill all perks as stated in their campaign. If, for any reason, they are unable to use Contributions as described in their Campaign, they agree to work with the Contributors to reach a mutually satisfactory resolution, which may include refunding their Contributions.
Now it gets technically tricky because of the GOSONDORS buy me page and then indicates that the customer MUST go to indiegogo. Gosondors does indicate they will refund moneys but general they will quote indiegogo refund policy.
So there you go....Find your local Consumer protection branch and begin the process if you suspect anything is wrong. It is your risk and your monies involved. No one can take away your Rights as a consumer, especially not indiegogo.
The California Consumers Legal Remedies Act ("CLRA") is the name for California Civil Code §§ 1750 et seq.[1] The CLRA declare unlawful several "methods of competition and unfair or deceptive acts or practices undertaken by any person in a transaction intended to result or which results in the sale or lease of goods or services to any consumer".[2] Forbidden practices include misrepresenting the source of the good and services, representing reconditioned goods as new, advertising goods without having the expected demand in stock, representing a repair is needed when it is not, representing rebates that have hidden conditions, and misrepresenting the authority of a salesman to close a deal.
California Department of Consumer Affairs is very explicit about the rights of consumers within their state.
http://www.dca.ca.gov
Of course there is a federal Consumer protection department:
https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/#crnt&panel1-1
Indiegogo has many reports at the Better Business Bureau....Refunds are available but the consumer has to undergo a dispute resolution process in case the customer does not get what was promised as a perk.
Here is a message from indiegogo outlining their policy of disputes:
Contributions made through Indiegogo are transactions that take place between the campaign owner, contributor, and payment processor, and are non-refundable by Indiegogo, as stated in our Terms of Use (www.indiegogo.com/about/terms.) Therefore, we recommend the contributor reach out directly to the campaign owner if they are interested in receiving a refund.
By creating a campaign on Indiegogo, the campaign owner agrees to use funds and fulfill all perks as stated in their campaign. If, for any reason, they are unable to use Contributions as described in their Campaign, they agree to work with the Contributors to reach a mutually satisfactory resolution, which may include refunding their Contributions.
Now it gets technically tricky because of the GOSONDORS buy me page and then indicates that the customer MUST go to indiegogo. Gosondors does indicate they will refund moneys but general they will quote indiegogo refund policy.
So there you go....Find your local Consumer protection branch and begin the process if you suspect anything is wrong. It is your risk and your monies involved. No one can take away your Rights as a consumer, especially not indiegogo.
California consumer laws may not apply in this situation since these bikes are "perks" and are not a product a consumer purchased. People "donated" to this campaign for the "perk" as opposed to "sale" of a electric bike.
This situation will most likely apply to the early donors and may not apply to individuals who "donated" after the campaign switched to "InDemand" funding or when the campaign started providing the "reserve now pay later" option. This appears to become a gray area.
This situation will most likely apply to the early donors and may not apply to individuals who "donated" after the campaign switched to "InDemand" funding or when the campaign started providing the "reserve now pay later" option. This appears to become a gray area.
wa5
Well-Known Member
The Videos uploaded today are very encouraging, Something is definitely happening. cant understand why they wouldn't have been providing updates like this months ago..
Glad to see that funders will be getting their bikes. to my way of thinking, there are still some issues with this endeavour, but pleasing to see that Stormco are sending bikes down the line.
Glad to see that funders will be getting their bikes. to my way of thinking, there are still some issues with this endeavour, but pleasing to see that Stormco are sending bikes down the line.
Ann M.
Well-Known Member
If its a Bafang/8Fun motor, then that information should be clearly stated on the IGG Sonders description, but it isn't. @George S., Would you provide a link to show where BC not only says that but provides proof thereof, its tiresome to search for these 'he said/she said' stuff. Motor quality can vary wildly, so just saying its that brand is not proof, just an implication. Do the due diligence for this community
since that's the title of this thread.
George S.
Well-Known Member
If its a Bafang/8Fun motor, then that information should be clearly stated on the IGG Sonders description, but it isn't. @George S., Would you provide a link to show where BC not only says that but provides proof thereof, its tiresome to search for these 'he said/she said' stuff. Motor quality can vary wildly, so just saying its that brand is not proof, just an implication. Do the due diligence for this community
I just think it is going to be a he said/she said on some of this stuff, and that's all I'm suggesting. But I don't know what good it does, right now, to track this stuff down. Since Court will get one and it will probably be possible to determine all this stuff, soon enough, what are people doing now? Note that Bruce said it is Bafang and then point it out later on, if it isn't.
It's like the Samsung cells. A lot of people list those cells, from Paul at EM3ev to Dillenger, to Prodeco to RadRover to Wave. How can we determine if the battery is made into a pack with great care?
You really can't have 200 pages of due diligence for this bike and maybe 10 total pages of whatever for Prodeco.
I'm going on the assumption they will produce a decent bike that will work for some people. I'm going on the assumption the corners they cut in providing the low price will have to be worked out.
This thread is way too long, and has outlived its usefulness. If Court wants to chop out everything that does not contribute to the original post, great. You'll find more than enough of my posts early on. But I have battle fatigue.
No bike has ever been looked at with this microscope, or ever will be again. You have to do a reset, say it will be an actual production bike, and proceed from there with no prejudices, right?
Two other CF managers have complained they can't get the attention of EBR. What's that about? Aren't there real CF issues here? A lot of these campaigns get mired in their lack of knowledge about certain things. I don't know how adversarial EBR wants to be. How adversarial do you think this thread is? Is there another bike you have an adversarial relationship with, as an admin here?
There are tons of regulatory and legal issues that grow out of CF. There are problems with the bikes, the way the campaigns are structured, and so on. None of the review/information sites are doing much. It's not my decision to make. The sites make money from advertisers, and the CF's are not in that world.
When Court gets the bike is he really going to go down the list of everything in this thread, anyway? Is someone doing an accounting? I don't really know what the original purpose of this thread was, what it is now, and whether it has helped or hurt anything in particular.
Even with this bike, there are more interesting issues than the brand of motor.
Why not just shut this thread down, declare a moratorium on Sondo stuff, and wait for the bikes? If the ebike industry, in which I play no role, wants to continue the high drama and high tension of this bike (look at the early Prodeco stuff) fine. It's your industry. I am an observer. I come over here, I take what I get.
Hurley
Active Member
This thread has been valuable for I'm concerned. I learned a lot. The last 3 pages have George posting 8 times so far with the last requesting the thread be locked due to over posting. kinda ironic. I want to personally thank the moderators and sincerely hope everyone gets their bikes. This will most certainly be my last post. Good luck folks.
FTC Complaint
Active Member
This thread is in a position to "force transparency" and hence the "microscope" on the technical and business issues and concerns.
The bike could have a glowing review, be delivered to all who purchased it; and unfortunately (from a business perspective) it would still be incomplete.
The Bafang issues would be important because it afford buyers the ability, to buy parts independently (e.g. gears) , and thus to do basic service on the bike. The Bafang motors have good fit and finish and relatively good quality. I have not seen MAC but I hear they are good as well.
The 5amp charger is another issue, credibility of, and fire-explosion risk
The gauge of the spokes, so they don't snap.
The list goes on.
Last edited:
stevenast
Well-Known Member
Why a moratorium? It is topical and interesting. No one is required to follow this thread...
I too have learned and been entertained as well! Yes, there have been issues with this thread, but there's also been thoughtful, well-written, highly informative posts.
In a greater sense, this community will grow based on factors such as relevance, appeal, involvement. By that last measure this thread is topping the charts!
stevenast
Well-Known Member
Back to the thread topic - I counted six bikes on a conveyor belt. Does that really look like "full swing production"?
Did I see one of them labeled: "to EBR"?
Credible Hulk
Active Member
I decided to step back for a couple of days as I was getting stressed out at all the drama, and the behaviour of certain operatives. I also wanted to consider the implications of the latest photos and updates.
I have mixed feelings about the latest photos and video. I'm glad to see that there's finally some evidence of manufacturing. It certainly raises hope that customers (I disagree with IGG calling us "backers" in order to evade their obligations under consumer laws) will have something to show for their faith in Sondors. Yes, faith. Despite the concerns, and the accusations from the Troll Brigade, people gave this organization their money in good faith expecting a product, and have been, and continue to be, stonewalled by IGG/Sondors.
I would really like to put my concerns aside, withdraw my request for a refund, sit back and wait in eager anticipation for my shipment to arrive. After all, I bought the $200 Efneo gearbox and some other accessories, which will be worthless without the Sondors. But there are still too many issues:
- continued lack of transparency and accountability to customers. There are a lot of posts all over the internet stating that Sondors customers have been impatient, negative, unreasonable, unfair to Sondors. Nonsense. The ones who have been, and continue to be, unreasonable, are Sondors and IGG. They've been dishonest, evasive, arrogant, and they've treated customers like crap by keeping us in the dark, hiring people to silence us, and refusing to answer questions. Pretty sad, and ungrateful, considering how much money people have handed them in good faith, reasonably expecting to get what was promised to them.
- continued online harassment by their operatives, despite IGG's assurance to me that these people had been told to stop (I refuse to pretend there's no association when there clearly is)
- their stated intention to make additional demands for already excessive shipping fees (the Lithium battery excuse)
- the certainty that UPS (the worst possible courier they could have used) will demand exorbitant fake brokerage fees at the door from customers in Canada and other countries. UPS usually charge more than the value of the item. If I refuse the shipment so I can pay the legal brokerage fee at my local customs office, I'd then have to travel to the far outskirts of my city to the UPS warehouse and pick up the box myself. Which I can't do, because I don't have a car and this box will not fit on a city bus, or a taxi. I asked IGG to either use a different courier for Canada or mark boxes to Canada "self clear" to stop UPS from charging their illegal fee. Based on their answer, it's highly unlikely. So I paid over $300 CAD in shipping fees to IGG, then it will be several hundred more to UPS if I want my package. It will add up to hundreds more than the ebike itself is worth. I won't be the only customer in that situation.
- concerns over quality, safety, and regulatory requirements. If they don't make the required changes to these ebikes, they won't be usable at their destination. They may even be stopped by customs at the border. For example, in Canada all ebikes require a federal regulatory sticker in English and French, or they're not road-legal. They have to have their motors modified so they can't exceed Canadian ebike speed limits. They have to have reflectors. If not, customers will have to spend more money to make those modifications. I asked IGG about this and got the usual non-reply.
- concerns over lack of warranty, safety and support. This isn't a clock radio, it's a potentially lethal piece of equipment which could injure or kill its rider and anyone else on the road. Most buyers are first-timers like me and will need help once they receive their product. Guess what they'll get? The same stonewall treatment as they've received since the campaign started. If cheap crappy ebikes start falling apart and batteries explode, what recourse will customers have? None.
This is why my refund request to IGG/Sondors, stands.
I have mixed feelings about the latest photos and video. I'm glad to see that there's finally some evidence of manufacturing. It certainly raises hope that customers (I disagree with IGG calling us "backers" in order to evade their obligations under consumer laws) will have something to show for their faith in Sondors. Yes, faith. Despite the concerns, and the accusations from the Troll Brigade, people gave this organization their money in good faith expecting a product, and have been, and continue to be, stonewalled by IGG/Sondors.
I would really like to put my concerns aside, withdraw my request for a refund, sit back and wait in eager anticipation for my shipment to arrive. After all, I bought the $200 Efneo gearbox and some other accessories, which will be worthless without the Sondors. But there are still too many issues:
- continued lack of transparency and accountability to customers. There are a lot of posts all over the internet stating that Sondors customers have been impatient, negative, unreasonable, unfair to Sondors. Nonsense. The ones who have been, and continue to be, unreasonable, are Sondors and IGG. They've been dishonest, evasive, arrogant, and they've treated customers like crap by keeping us in the dark, hiring people to silence us, and refusing to answer questions. Pretty sad, and ungrateful, considering how much money people have handed them in good faith, reasonably expecting to get what was promised to them.
- continued online harassment by their operatives, despite IGG's assurance to me that these people had been told to stop (I refuse to pretend there's no association when there clearly is)
- their stated intention to make additional demands for already excessive shipping fees (the Lithium battery excuse)
- the certainty that UPS (the worst possible courier they could have used) will demand exorbitant fake brokerage fees at the door from customers in Canada and other countries. UPS usually charge more than the value of the item. If I refuse the shipment so I can pay the legal brokerage fee at my local customs office, I'd then have to travel to the far outskirts of my city to the UPS warehouse and pick up the box myself. Which I can't do, because I don't have a car and this box will not fit on a city bus, or a taxi. I asked IGG to either use a different courier for Canada or mark boxes to Canada "self clear" to stop UPS from charging their illegal fee. Based on their answer, it's highly unlikely. So I paid over $300 CAD in shipping fees to IGG, then it will be several hundred more to UPS if I want my package. It will add up to hundreds more than the ebike itself is worth. I won't be the only customer in that situation.
- concerns over quality, safety, and regulatory requirements. If they don't make the required changes to these ebikes, they won't be usable at their destination. They may even be stopped by customs at the border. For example, in Canada all ebikes require a federal regulatory sticker in English and French, or they're not road-legal. They have to have their motors modified so they can't exceed Canadian ebike speed limits. They have to have reflectors. If not, customers will have to spend more money to make those modifications. I asked IGG about this and got the usual non-reply.
- concerns over lack of warranty, safety and support. This isn't a clock radio, it's a potentially lethal piece of equipment which could injure or kill its rider and anyone else on the road. Most buyers are first-timers like me and will need help once they receive their product. Guess what they'll get? The same stonewall treatment as they've received since the campaign started. If cheap crappy ebikes start falling apart and batteries explode, what recourse will customers have? None.
This is why my refund request to IGG/Sondors, stands.
wa5
Well-Known Member
This quote comes from Endless sphere, by Theodore Voltaire / Philip Hillis. (QUOTE)
Now that the cats out of the bag so to speak I can speak more freely about it. The Storm bikes are believed to be made in the TPT Cycle factory in mainland China. TPT is a OEM manufacturer that boasts 3 million bike capacity a year. The Storm bikes are all original design, and patented Pacific Storm inc. bikes. bafang, which is supplying the motors for the Storm bikes also has a factory in the same city in Tianjin, China. (END QUOTE).
If Philip is to be believed, and the factory is "TPT" and does have a capacity of three million bikes annually. That does raise a few questions. Assuming the plant runs 7 days a week, that breaks down to about 8000 bikes a day, or 5. 5 bikes per minute assuming 24 hr production? So one bike every 12 seconds or there abouts.
I'm no expert when it comes to the intricacies of electric bicycle mass production, But, the assembly line in the Video does not appear to be travelling / working at anywhere near that capacity, nor does it look like it would be capable of doing so (to me at least).
If however the factory can produce bikes at the claimed output, its great news for Storm, all of his bikes have now been produced and should be on the ship by now
Now that the cats out of the bag so to speak I can speak more freely about it. The Storm bikes are believed to be made in the TPT Cycle factory in mainland China. TPT is a OEM manufacturer that boasts 3 million bike capacity a year. The Storm bikes are all original design, and patented Pacific Storm inc. bikes. bafang, which is supplying the motors for the Storm bikes also has a factory in the same city in Tianjin, China. (END QUOTE).
If Philip is to be believed, and the factory is "TPT" and does have a capacity of three million bikes annually. That does raise a few questions. Assuming the plant runs 7 days a week, that breaks down to about 8000 bikes a day, or 5. 5 bikes per minute assuming 24 hr production? So one bike every 12 seconds or there abouts.
I'm no expert when it comes to the intricacies of electric bicycle mass production, But, the assembly line in the Video does not appear to be travelling / working at anywhere near that capacity, nor does it look like it would be capable of doing so (to me at least).
If however the factory can produce bikes at the claimed output, its great news for Storm, all of his bikes have now been produced and should be on the ship by now
George S.
Well-Known Member
This quote comes from Endless sphere, by Theodore Voltaire / Philip Hillis. (QUOTE)
Now that the cats out of the bag so to speak I can speak more freely about it. The Storm bikes are believed to be made in the TPT Cycle factory in mainland China. TPT is a OEM manufacturer that boasts 3 million bike capacity a year. The Storm bikes are all original design, and patented Pacific Storm inc. bikes. bafang, which is supplying the motors for the Storm bikes also has a factory in the same city in Tianjin, China. (END QUOTE).
If Philip is to be believed, and the factory is "TPT" and does have a capacity of three million bikes annually. That does raise a few questions. Assuming the plant runs 7 days a week, that breaks down to about 8000 bikes a day, or 5. 5 bikes per minute assuming 24 hr production? So one bike every 12 seconds or there abouts.
I'm no expert when it comes to the intricacies of electric bicycle mass production, But, the assembly line in the Video does not appear to be travelling / working at anywhere near that capacity, nor does it look like it would be capable of doing so (to me at least).
If however the factory can produce bikes at the claimed output, its great news for Storm, all of his bikes have now been produced and should be on the ship by now
http://electricbikereport.com/electric-bike-factories-china/
Pete had a long series on the Chinese factories, and clearly some of them can produce ebikes at a phenomenal rate. I'm impressed that Storm understands the market. Has anyone ever asked if he speaks Chinese?
J.R.
Well-Known Member
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The efneo for the sondors is just a fat bottom bracket gearset, there's nothing about it that makes it proprietary to the sondors. The reason a fat bb is wider is the frame chain-stays need to be farther set to accommodate the wide tires (see photo below). Even with the wider bb the chain-stays have to have a dramatic bend to accept wide tires and if I recall correctly the sondors tires are even wider than standard (4") at 4.5". If the efneo works at all it will work on the sondors, 100mm is 100mm.
The 100mm is the measurement between the chain-ring on the far side and the crank-arm on the near side. 100mm=3.9in.
The 100mm is the measurement between the chain-ring on the far side and the crank-arm on the near side. 100mm=3.9in.
Chas
Member
Anomander, I posted a lot of information on this a few weeks ago back. Just search on my name. Ivars got in a spat with Jon early on (about the $2 million mark) and kicked him out.
Jon created the bike in the original sales video that inspired $5+ million in sales. Of course, that was a $4000 72v 40a 3000 watt bike. I have a screen print of the Cycle Analyst read out from that video. Ivar’s bike has 1/10th of the power and a fraction of the cost and can’t do the thing that Jon’s bike can (speed, hill climbing, riding in sand, off road riding). Of course those abilities are what sold the bike in the first place.
I’m just totally guessing here, but I would imagine that Jon took issue with some of storm’s exaggerated claims (like we have) and Storm kicked him out. It was clear early on that Jon knows his stuff with e-bikes, and Ivars didn’t.
Jon created the bike in the original sales video that inspired $5+ million in sales. Of course, that was a $4000 72v 40a 3000 watt bike. I have a screen print of the Cycle Analyst read out from that video. Ivar’s bike has 1/10th of the power and a fraction of the cost and can’t do the thing that Jon’s bike can (speed, hill climbing, riding in sand, off road riding). Of course those abilities are what sold the bike in the first place.
I’m just totally guessing here, but I would imagine that Jon took issue with some of storm’s exaggerated claims (like we have) and Storm kicked him out. It was clear early on that Jon knows his stuff with e-bikes, and Ivars didn’t.
Where is the original designer of this idea....John H., I originally saw him prior to the campaign reaching 2 Million dollars then magically his name was removed from Igg Sondors page. Then the Agency 2.0 team has sued Sondors for Contract Fraud.
Ann M.
Well-Known Member
Exactly @George S. If you spend a bit of time on Alibaba.com all of these primary plants, not the resellers, give you production amounts/month and generally its 10K+ per model and these companies are geared up to do massive production. I've felt that there would be delays due to the fact that some design issues wouldn't get resolved until the campaign was funded, but that first round bike shipment could happen reasonably close to the listed date. Being short of individual components, like battery cells or motor units, could delay production since a plant is dependent on these outside suppliers. Whether Sonders can really make the bike for the price these 'perks' are going for is another matter, especially given the upgrades that have happened due to public feedback.
Chas
Member
@ FTC and Ann:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/8fun-snow-bike-motor-36v-350w_60218603089.html
Theo V. posted this as the motor (maybe Bruce C told him?). It could be something like this, but obviously it is not a 350rpm motor on a fat bike! This motor is about twice the weight of the original motor, putting the bike weight well over 60 lbs (vs the 45lbs originally claimed). Personally, I think a bigger motor is a good thing, as that little $80 Bafang X02 motor he originally had is not a good match for a 60lb fat bike.
All in all it seems that Ivars is making some interesting changes to the bike. I am pleasantly surprised he is using Samsung Cells, and a decent motor. We are all curious to see what the final bike looks like and performs like with all of the changes.
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/8fun-snow-bike-motor-36v-350w_60218603089.html
Theo V. posted this as the motor (maybe Bruce C told him?). It could be something like this, but obviously it is not a 350rpm motor on a fat bike! This motor is about twice the weight of the original motor, putting the bike weight well over 60 lbs (vs the 45lbs originally claimed). Personally, I think a bigger motor is a good thing, as that little $80 Bafang X02 motor he originally had is not a good match for a 60lb fat bike.
All in all it seems that Ivars is making some interesting changes to the bike. I am pleasantly surprised he is using Samsung Cells, and a decent motor. We are all curious to see what the final bike looks like and performs like with all of the changes.
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