Say Hello To Storm

[biknut]

I've been studying the componentry on this bike and man, it's really pretty impressive if true. This bike probably has better accessory's than your bike in a lot of cases. It's far from the cheapest stuff. It's too late for me to get into it now, but I'll tell you about it tomorrow for sure.

 

[Clark]

So the idea here is to dump junk on folks and walk away with $$ and that's ok for the E Bike industry? Get some balanced perspective, that's what Court's working to do on Electricbikereview.com. So@Ravi Kempaiah , what's your point? We can all see that normal waterbottle cage mounts were covered by the battery pack. That's not the issue, its what's going to happen when all the fake hype is gone since there's no legal protection for investors on Indiegogo. That's a serious differentiation from Kickstarter, where money is held until items are actually ready to ship. I saw nothing on the Indiegogo site viewed a few days ago indicating that there was a long term support or 'dealer's network'; this is an after the fact add-on.

Do due diligence, folks, that bike is not 'Storm's personal bike' that he created. His own investor buddies have images of the same bike with totally different labels. Show me where he 'created the McDonald's kiddie treats' but he's not into computers? Look at what was posted as updates on the Storm funding site. Of course he's going to have some demo unit. We can all order a Demo Unit of almost any ebike from Alibaba.com and then call it our 'own'. Here's where I have more questions: Storm's recent claims concerning owner's support does not match what is on the Indiegogo site-- Show everyone the preplanned structure in place to support individual buyers or dealers when there's 5000+ of your bikes on the street on the same day. These latest updates Storm added on their Indiegogo campaign are a result of pushback from the public by all of you who are aware and interested in EBikes.

Manufacturer's support, at least this round, most likely will amount to the typical container load '10% of a purchase add-on in spare parts; generally nothing major. Even one of the major US EBike manufacturers I spoke with this afternoon had serious doubts about the production schedule of 5000 units, shipped and delivered from China in 2 months. This company's annual production gives them a perspective of what was rational. Again, it is easy to underestimate the time to go through US Customs and the cost of import taxes when calculating the real cost for importing a whole item, not separate parts.

Ann - just so you know - that's Ravi making a Joke - an ebike without waterbottle cage mounts happens to be Court's kryptonite - his main pet-peeve, you must be newish here not to know that, which is fine, but you won't find a more knowledgeable, diligent person on EBR who cares about the future of the ebike industry than Ravi.

Clark

 

[Ann M.]

Thank you for that perspective on the water bottle; however, @bikenut , what if this guy is scamming? This is not thinking as a consumer, but highlighting that there is more than just one side to examine with regards to how the Indiegogo system works.

 

[Admin]

Video number two for the day/night... Heading to bed, hope you guys enjoy it

 

[Clark]

Court,
A while back you sought feedback from the EBR community on maybe allowing others (well known members) to help you on different areas of the site. I argued against that, at least in any major type of input, because people like me come here to get YOUR perspective, because over time I've come to trust your judgement (obviously with the knowledge that the site couldn't exist without some sort of sponsorship) your "voice" if you will. This Storm kerfuffle is exactly the type of thing I was talking about. It's great to get everyone else's perspective here as well, keep up the good work.

Clark

 

[Gus]

My point is it's hard to nail down an exact range claim on an eBike, because no matter what you claim I could probably get it, but for this bike if you say 15 miles average I could believe that.

OK, let's just run with that statement. That is a 70% degradation in expected range. How many people bought this thing are fully expecting to get a bike that goes 50 miles at full speed like the people shown in the promo video?

People that know eBikes know that a 36V 9ah battery is NEVER going to get 50 miles out of real world usage. Real world, you can expect on average about 15-20 watt-hours per mile on a non-fat bike. The Storm only has 324 watt hours, so people will be lucky to get 20 miles. Being a fat single speed, that number is only going to go down.

The more I read from this campaign, the more obvious its getting that they know little to nothing about eBikes and bikes in general. I bet they have some Chinese vendor buzzing in their ear about all these false or exaggerated claims and they are posting it as fact because they don't know any better. Now that's its viral, there is no going back. People will be expecting 50 miles and 90 minute charge time - both of which are flat out lies or they are purposely being deceptive by what that means.

That is, "sure it goes 50 miles on a 50 mile downhill" or "sure it charges to 100% from 80% in 90 minutes"

 

[George S.]

Ah, when I was a young buck the Storm weighed 45 pounds and came with a direct drive hub.

Storm now lists two weights for the bike, depending on where you look. You have to be able to add to get the new weight:

How much does the bike weigh?

The bike weighs approximately 49lbs without the battery.

How much does the battery weigh?
The battery weighs approximately 6lbs.

Score one for Court.

We've lost a little battery capacity as well:

Description: 36V 8.8Ah Lithium Ion Bottle.

 

[biknut]

Ah, when I was a young buck the Storm weighed 45 pounds and came with a direct drive hub.

Storm now lists two weights for the bike, depending on where you look. You have to be able to add to get the new weight:

How much does the bike weigh?

The bike weighs approximately 49lbs without the battery.

How much does the battery weigh?
The battery weighs approximately 6lbs.

Score one for Court.

We've lost a little battery capacity as well:

Description: 36V 8.8Ah Lithium Ion Bottle.

I hope it has the same motor as comes on my sons Neo Carbon. Looks a lot like it what little I can see. It's 350w 36v too. His bike seems to have really decent power, and is very quiet.

The battery is about that size too. I'm pretty sure that's what you get with 10s 4p 18650

18650 come in different mah sizes. that could be a reason why the exact size is a little uncertain.

 

[George S.]

What's wild is that they can change anything they want. I figure they'll buy a bunch of those Dillenger folding bikes, the clown bike (now that was funny) and just send those out.

 

[biknut]

What's wild is that they can change anything they want. I figure they'll buy a bunch of those Dillenger folding bikes, the clown bike (now that was funny) and just send those out.

I sort of doubt they've actually changed anything except the description. It seems like their descriptions weren't very accurate. The only thing they've done, as far as I can tell is more accurately describe what we've been looking at all along.

Someone on es fingered the hub motor as geared motor early on. I myself was already thinking the same thing, because the motor looks suspiciously like the one on the Neo Carbon. If that's the case, that's a good motor.

The battery isn't a big deal to me because it's too small no matter what size it is.

Has anyone taken note of

sealed cartridge bb
3 piece alloy crank set
Alloy seat post
1 1/8 steering head
sealed bearing head set
Alloy chain ring
Alloy handle bars
Alloy stem
locking hand grips
adjustable alloy seat post clamp

these are not the kind of accessory's you find on a cheap bicycle. Typically you could pay $1000 or more for a bicycle with this stuff and no motor

 

[Matthew Kreger]

Moving a little off topic, but seems appropriate to stay in this thread. I just got an email newsletter from a Baltimore LBS. Headline is "Alex Says: Get Fat This Winter!" It goes on to talk about how cool fat bikes are and provides a link to the fat bikes they sell. Thing is, the cheapest one is a $1500 Surly Pugsly SS. Never heard of it. It's a single speed bike with Surly's "proprietary 4130 chromoly steel frame", Shimano rear hub, Knard 3.8" tires, Surly crankset, Avid BB7 mechanical disk brakes, "sturdy Salsa components", and a "sleek WTB saddle."

Now I just started looking at and reading about e-bikes a few weeks ago after 15 years of completely ignoring everything about bikes. I had several road bikes in the good old days and in 1997 rode self-supported from Virginia to Florida on a Linear recumbent and in 2001 did the Raleigh to DC AIDS ride on a Giant hybrid. So while compared to most of the folks on this forum I'm still pretty much a clueless newbie when it comes to bikes, components, brands, etc., I probably know more about bikes than 98% of people. Of the brands/components listed on that Surly the only ones I recognize are Shimano and Avid. Without actually researching it, my tired old brain cells tell me Avid makes a decent low-end brake set and Shimano makes a huge range of bike parts that are on just about every level and quality of bike there is.

So here I am, thinking about buying a bike. Like most people, I don't have a relationship with anyone at a LBS and don't have a reason to trust them in particular. So if all I have to go on is "the professionals" at my LBS telling me this stuff is superior why should I believe it's worth 3x the price of the Storm even without a battery and motor? Why should I believe the components are any different or better quality? In fact these serious biker guys are a little intimidating with their shaved legs and strange lingo and the more questions I ask the stupider I feel. It might be more comfortable to just order something from Amazon where I get 90% of the rest of the stuff I buy. And free 2-day shipping with Prime!

I agree it feels like e-bike manufacturers are price gouging. But it's not just them. It's the bike business in general. Try to find any bike for under $400 at your LBS. Who is ripping off whom? The manufacturers ripping off the LBS's? LBS's ripping me off? Walmart ripping everyone off? Is China ripping us all off by making it so we can't afford to employ people to do anything but flip burgers and change diapers? I don't know but as an average consumer who doesn't feel compelled to drive social justice issues by his purchases why take a chance? If I had any interest in a fat bike I'd buy a Storm. Probably two if I had the garage space to keep them. I hate to say it, but it looks like bike shops may be the next thing to fall to our culture of disposable products. Why should I spend $5K to buy a bike and a few hundred every year getting tuneups and replacing worn out parts when I can spend $500 on one that's just as fun out of the box and toss it out and buy a replacement when it breaks?

The Storm isn't the Tesla of e-bikes. I have a Tesla Model S. It's awesome. There is nothing else like it. That said, I plunked down $40k on a deposit a year and a half before anyone ever saw a real production car. The deposit alone was 30% more than I'd ever spent on a car. I worried daily that I'd just sunk a fortune into the new DeLorean. But they pulled it off. In fact, I wish I'd bought the stock instead of the 209th car off the line. I could have two Model S's and double my money back.

You can't yet buy a cheap knock-off of a Tesla for $30K on Alibaba. But you can buy some pretty impressive looking e-bikes for 1/3 or 1/5 the price of well known brands with what look like similar specs. The Storm guys don't have to invent a new segment. They're just repackaging commodity stuff at this point. This a WAY safer investment. I bought the Tesla, but I didn't buy a $15K 42" Plasma HDTV, I didn't buy an $8K e-bike. I have a fantastic 56" LCD TV I got on Black Friday for $500. I doubt I could even find a shop to get it fixed if it broke.

Rambling rant over (for now). I think I forgot to take my meds...

 

[biknut]

I think it's just that the times are changing. I like the convenience a brick and mortar shop, but it just seems like they're operating like it's still the 50s. They're operate on a low volume, high profit model, but now they're forced to compete with high volume, low profit ecommerce business models. So far we've been getting screwed by corps that buy Asian in volume, but sell to us at high mark up to support their arcane business models.

Storm is trying to change that. He's going 21 century ecommerce all the way to the consumer. It's not good for the dinosaurs. Things need to change.

We're taking all the risk, he's doing all the work. For our trouble we get a low a cost high quality product, we hope.

 

[Brambor]

Good article

 

[JoePah]

Your math is wrong.


You are also missing the large cost to get 5000 bikes shipped from China to the US. Not to mention the lithium batteries may require special handling which would be extra.

This is going to be good.

The shipping charges will cost up to $194 extra to the customer,as stated on the website. You don't think that's enough to ship 6000 bikes from China to USA to customer? That's an additional $1.2 M. ASSUMING they deliver the bikes. Not taking bets on that. Hehe

 

[George S.]

This is what I call a fair and balanced assessment.

https://electricfatbike.wordpress.c...he-most-important-crowdfunding-campaign-ever/

Beautifully put. I hope the people with a stake in crowdsource funding understand that if this turns sour, their way of doing business (contributions and perks) could be legislated out of existence.

If these are just nice guys with a dream, it's too bad they didn't just find a bike, develop it online, learn the ropes, and maybe work up to this. Too late now. Way too late, now.

They were supposed to end the $499 price last night. It still shows at that price. No explanation.

The world's most affordable eBike.
Priced under $500 for a Limited Time.
Offer Ends 2/6/2015

It was a three day offer from the 1st (Super Sunday). That would mean the 4th. And yet they said the 6th. And now it is the 7th.

 

[George S.]

We're all in the dark. I saw Storm because of your post, back on page one. I signed up for the announcement. The announcement said I was lucky or smart, that I had a chance, three days, to buy at the intro price. I have that email. But that's not what has happened. They've now extended the 'intro price' from 3 days to 5 days to, I don't know, forever. From the email I got, I assumed they were selling something. But you don't buy anything on Indiegogo. You contribute.

Storm seems like he might be a nice guy, but he's got a couple of Pit Bull types doing his marketing. And it's a very flaky setup, with 'contributions' and 'perks', not contracts and specifications.

Email sent to me Feb 1, 2015/ 10:50 AM MDT

 

[Clark]

biknut,
I read and agree with the wordpress blog. I hope these two are "dreamers", innocents if you will, who got hooked up with Agency 2.0 who took it upon themselves to embelish everything, who calls themselves a manufacturing fulfillment genius? Or manufacturing design genius, when as stated Jon is a video production something, what does that have to do with manufacturing design? I hope Agency 2.0 went way over the top to push some ebikes - overstated everything - not realizing the Yahoo thing would explode - which in turn would lead to such scrutiny from a larger than expected ebike community.
I hope they do the right thing. BTW I bet Walmart pays less than a dollar per filter.

Clark

 

[biknut]

biknut,
I read and agree with the wordpress blog. I hope these two are "dreamers", innocents if you will, who got hooked up with Agency 2.0 who took it upon themselves to embelish everything, who calls themselves a manufacturing fulfillment genius? Or manufacturing design genius, when as stated Jon is a video production something, what does that have to do with manufacturing design? I hope Agency 2.0 went way over the top to push some ebikes - overstated everything - not realizing the Yahoo thing would explode - which in turn would lead to such scrutiny from a larger than expected ebike community.
I hope they do the right thing. BTW I bet Walmart pays less than a dollar per filter.

Clark

Considering we're talking about eBikes here, and looking at the previous history of eBikes being sold in this way, and the general slow sales of them, I think it's a pretty safe assumption that no one in their wildest imagination could have possibly expected this to happen

When I got in they had about $55,000 of the $75,000 funding goal, and I myself was thinking they would only be lucky to make the goal before the 30 days were up. After they got over $50,000 I decided maybe they'd make it. That was at about 100 bike out of 150 if they reached the goal. Now they're way past 5000 bikes.

I'm pretty sure you're right about the filters.

 

[JoePah]

I was in the bike store order a CF Cervelo (p.s. it was more than $499) road bike and they had a Fat bike with 4.7"x26" tires.. Holy Crap! The rim was massive even with the drill outs like the Storm and those tires look like something that should be on a large motorcycle.

This Storm will ride smooth that's for sure.. Potholes, curbs, small deer no problem!

 

[George S.]

I was in the bike store order a CF Cervelo (p.s. it was more than $499) road bike and they had a Fat bike with 4.7"x26" tires.. Holy Crap! The rim was massive even with the drill outs like the Storm and those tires look like something that should be on a large motorcycle.

This Storm will ride smooth that's for sure.. Potholes, curbs, small deer no problem!

Congrats on the Cervelo. Anything more than my basic cf Fezzari would be wasted on me. Nothing like a road bike to make you really appreciate cycling, the incredible efficiency, simplicity, all that. Get a nice ebike, get a nice regular bike. They are both great experiences. All the other variations are OK, but road bikes are still pretty special.