Radrover Controller & Display Upgrade Kit

[BKing]

Yes, you have a geared motor.

 

[BKing]

Do you have a sensor with the red LED on the bottom? Make sure it flashes evenly when pedaling. And solid on when pedaling backwards. You can set PAS to zero for this test.

 

[trx123]

I will check it later. Thanks

 

[trx123]

My sensor does not have an led. Here is a video of what my bike does. I suspect the sensor is faulty but I'm not sure. I will reinstall the stock controller to see if the problem persists with the new sensor.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/B3caYoozCFC1tRR97

 

[AHicks]

My bet is controller. The trick will be getting Electrobike world to admit that 1st, then actually doing something about it 2nd. If you're picking up on the idea I really don't care for these folks, you'd be spot on.

That spool up time is called soft start. It's to prevent little old ladies from becoming alarmed with the sudden power or having the bike scoot out from under them because they're only hanging on with one hand. There's no way in the world the PAS sensor is doing that. Soft start, or anything like it, has no business being part of a performance upgrade package.

The Bolton kits won't be like that, and KT controllers purchased at a component level (not part of a kit) aren't like that.

 

[trx123]

I changed the pass sensor to a KT model and the bike now behaves much better. Now I get immediate pedal assist. The sensor is available in Amazon for 13 dollars. Check it out here: Amazon
The sensor is installed on the left side and I set C1=5, the highest assist sensitivity. But the assist behavior is different than the stock controller. There are three different pas control schemes as explained in the article below from Grin technologies. I believe the stock controller uses cadence pas and the upgrade controller uses constant power pas, but I am not sure. I am still researching this.

Basic PAS, constant power​

This was the pedal assist approach used in the original "autoPAS" mode of the V3 CA device. Whenever the rider pedaled, a given amount of power was supplied to the motor. This power remained constant up to the speed limit of the system. With autoPAS set to 200watts, you would have receive the same 200 watts of boost even as you sped up or slowed down due to changing terrain or pedal power. When you adjusted the pedal assist level from the handlebar control, you would be directly increasing or decreasing this power setpoint.

Basic PAS, constant throttle​

This is a common approach by many turn-key ebikes since it doesn't require any internal control loop. The PAS assist setting is basically like the throttle setpoint, so when you pedal the bike at the 50% assist level it would be like riding with 50% throttle. This generally has the effect of changing the speed limit of the bike, with 50% assist the motor will only spin up to half the speed. At lower speeds than this the motor will be able to output full power, while at higher speed there wouldn't be any assist at all. This mode can be preferable to constant power PAS for people who want their assist level to effectively regulate the cruising speed of the bike, rather than the power drawn from the battery. It is available as an option in the V3.1 CA firmware.

Cadence PAS​

In a cadence controlled PAS mode, the power delivered to the motor also varies with the speed of the pedal cranks. In a normal bike with multiple gears, it is common to downshift and spin the cranks faster whenever the rider wants to put more human power into the bike, and the PAS system will respond in kind and apply more motor power as well. Setup properly, it is possible to have the ebike feel like it is responding to your pedaling effort just like it would with a torque sensor, based only on the pedal cadence.

In the case of a bike with a single speed gear, you might want the very opposite behavior, where the power is highest at low pedal RPMs when you are just starting off from a standstill or slowing down as a result of encountering a hill, and then decrease when you are pedaling fast and up to speed.

 

[BKing]

Glad you made progress. I prefer to know the power level given and don’t want to change gears for higher cadence or press harder on the pedals for power. Younger people might like all that but it’s not what I bought an ebike for. I primarily ride at 18-23 and hang curves at 18 for fun. Can’t break the old mtn bike racing habits.

 

[AHicks]

Glad to hear you found the slow assist issue. Makes absolutely no sense, but if it's working for you who cares?

The KT controller has 2 of those assist levels available. You can switch back and forth between them to see which you like best. One is based on speed, the other, described in the KT manual as "imitation torque control", is close to what Grin describes as "constant throttle". See P3 for your choices.

 

[BKing]

Glad to hear you found the slow assist issue. Makes absolutely no sense, but if it's working for you who cares?

The KT controller has 2 of those assist levels available. You can switch back and forth between them to see which you like best. One is based on speed, the other, described in the KT manual as "imitation torque control", is close to what Grin describes as "constant throttle". See P3 for your choices.

Are you in FL? Evacuate?

 

[AHicks]

Are you in FL? Evacuate?

It was looking pretty dicey early on with the early forecasts showing it going right up the West coast into the pan handle. Thankfully (for us!) we are far enough north where we were not affected - this time.....

Thanks for asking! -Al

 

[BKing]

It was looking pretty dicey early on with the early forecasts showing it going right up the West coast into the pan handle. Thankfully (for us!) we are far enough north where we were not affected - this time.....

Thanks for asking! -Al

We were in the bullseye in SC then it went a little NE. Yard is trashed. Neighbor had one big tree down.

 

[trx123]

I don't believe P3 sets different pedal assist methods. P3 sets the behavior of the throttle. When set to 1 you get full power when advancing the throttle. When set to 0 the throttle power is limited by the pass level you are on.
P3 does not change the pedal assist method. That is determined by the controller firmware

 

[AHicks]

I don't believe P3 sets different pedal assist methods. P3 sets the behavior of the throttle. When set to 1 you get full power when advancing the throttle. When set to 0 the throttle power is limited by the pass level you are on.
P3 does not change the pedal assist method. That is determined by the controller firmware

I don't know what manual you are looking at, but mine shows:

"P3 is for power assist control mode, when P3 parameter setting is1, power assist control mode is gear 5 of "imitation torque control" mode, when P3 parameter setting is 0, power assist control mode is gear 5 of "speed control" mode. P3 parameter needs to be determined according to the distributed function of the controller, its setting range is 0 or 1"

P3=1 is by far and away the more popular setting, but clearly it will work fine either way....

 

[trx123]

I have the same manual and it reads the same. But the paragraph is a poor translation from Chinese that doesn't make sense. What is "the distributed function of the controller"? And what is "gear 5"? Look at this video from Bolton and listen to the P3 setting:

Finally, you can test P3 easily yourself. Set it to 0 and observe the power under full throttle with different pas levels (do not pedal). The power will be limited by the pas level.Then set P3 to 1 and observe the power under full throttle, ,again without pedaling. No matter what pas level you set, you get max power under full throttle. Of course what max power you get depends on C14.
See also this pdf file attached

 

[AHicks]

@trx123, You're preaching to the choir. I had been riding/messing with these for over a year when Bolton first started selling his "kits". I've been "testing" different ideas since 2015 when I installed my first 35a KT controller on my first e-bike.

As I've mentioned a few times, "imitation torque control" is chinglish for power based PAS.

Gear 5 = max available power (depending on your C5 and C14 settings). It means that these settings are not/will not change available throttle power, no matter what PAS level you've chosen. If yours is changing with different PAS levels, it's NOT because of how your P3 is set. Look somewhere else....

If you are struggling with all this, maybe try using ALL of Bolton's suggested settings, then go ride for a while. Not to the end of your driveway and back. Put a couple of miles on it - and do that with any changes you make. Some of this stuff is pretty subtle. It's going to take you a bit to see what's going on. And I'm sure you're starting to see how a lot of these settings are cross dependent. There's no shame in doing a C10 "reset" and starting over again if/when you get stumped....

 

[JTK77]

Short course for settings. Good starting point.

 

[trx123]

Just do the test and see for yourself. It's very simple. P3 does not affect pedal assist in any way. P3 only affects the throttle. Sorry, but it doesn't matter how many years you've been doing this.

 

[AHicks]

Just do the test and see for yourself. It's very simple. P3 does not affect pedal assist in any way. P3 only affects the throttle. Sorry, but it doesn't matter how many years you've been doing this.

You have some learning to do. I'll leave it at that. So long....

 

[trx123]

AHicks, my sincere apologies, especially for my snark remark. P3 does indeed change pedal behavior. Set to 1 you get you get power regardless of speed. Even when you are coasting downhill, if you pedal you get power. Set to 0, you get power until you reach the speed limit of the pas you're on. Then power gradually diminishes depending on weather you're climbing or not. I'm not sure why most people prefer P3 set to 1 because it gives you power when you don't need it, and on level ground your speed will keep increasing until it reaches the bike's max speed unless you stop pedaling.
Also, I believe I now understand C1. It determines the crank start sensitivity, that is how much of the crank you have to turn for power to come on. I have set it to 5 and I get power with about a quarter of a turn.

 

[AHicks]

Progress at last.
Yes, with P3=1 you will have power if the crank is turning. If the crank stops, the power goes to -0-. The beauty of that is that you set PAS 1 up so that the voltage/power being supplied to the motor is at a level YOU select! Use C=5 to get it close, then C-14 for fine tuning. Takes some messing around to get it perfect for sure. You'll need to go on several rides to get this right. Have fun. Try it a few ways! I've found something in the range of 75-125 watts when in PAS 1 works pretty good for me. Suggest you try that and go from there. You are setting up your low speed here. Some are going to want to be crawling (5-6mph), some like 8-10mph. Suit yourself. THEN, if you want more assistance/power for a hill or going into the wind, just set to a higher PAS level. The higher levels follow an algorithm, are not adjustable. My experience has been once the low speed is set, you won't care about setting the higher levels. -Al