radmini pas vs radrover

[vincent]

i am anxiously awaiting that different controller to come into radpower so i can get one asap to try on my rover
will post back as soon as i can get it plugged in and get some numbers...

but very curious how the radmini pas works vs the rover
anyway have the 2 to compare?

or could someone with the mini get the watts in each level and the speed in each level so we can compare to mine

really considering picking up a mini in the next couple of months but would like to see a better pas system than what i have now- which it should be anyway
and not really wanting to have to mod with a CA etc right off the bat

 

[sanglee007]

Hi Vincent,

I did some 'testing', on the road last night and this morning during my commute. I forgot my phone so I don't have accurate GPS speeds, so I'll rerun this test next week...mostly out of curiosity, but I'm trying to collect some data on my bikes too.

Radmini with tire size set to 22" - speed set to 33kph (20mph) -- Tires: sunlite/kenda 20x4 @ 25psi (I wrote 26x4, but it's 20x4 for the RadMini)

• pas 1 = 8mph
• pas 2 = 11mph
• pas 3 = 14mph
• pas 4 = 17mph
• pas 5 = 20mph

Radrover with tires size set to 28" - speed set to 33kph (20mph) -- Tires: Maxxis Hookworms 26x2.5 @ 25psi

• pas 1 = 10mph (adjusted speed -1mph, when compared to GPS for PAS1-4 on RR2016)
• pas 2 = 14mph
• pas 3 = 16mph
• pas 4 = 18mph
• pas 5 = 20mph +- (right around 20mph)

I find the Mini a bit easier to use on multi-use trails as 8mph is a bit more civilized especially with runners, joggers, meanderers and dogs all around. Plus the throttle will get give me a boost around things if I need to pass someone/thing quickly.



Sang

 

[vincent]

Sang is your radrover a 2016? Those are different numbers than mine

Do me a favor and try to get your watts in each pas level also, on both bikes if possible

Below is the numbers in my post about radrover pas
Mine is a 2015
Still waiting on radpower to get the other controller in so i can try it, hopefully it will help

but if the radmini acts like this watts wise that alone would rule it out for me

Below is watts and top speed in each level
Right now i can pretty much only use throttle, pas is so fast in level 2 and up

Thanks for getting these numbers on both bikes, they look like the controllers are different




------Level 1 looks like i get 50-150 watts under 5-6 mph and then as soon as i hit 5-6mph watts go to zero and stay there

So can barely use this, it is rarely on at all- is it only walk mode?


------Level 2 as soon as i push the up button goes to 750- 775 watts until it hits 13.5 i think
This is so fast and accelerates so quickly i can hardly get shifted up from like gear 3 to 7 , and 7 is the only gear in level 2 there is any resistance at all and not much then

It is just too much boost too fast

Hoping to get at least some exercise pedalling lol

Once about 12.5-13.5 mph level 2 holds about 200 watts

------Level 3 seems to jump to 750 watts or a little lower depending on how fast i am already going until it hits 15.5-16 mph then holds at 200 watts

Bike shop lowered the tire pressure too much for pavement and the bike was too squirrelly for me any faster than this
Did not have my pump so the other 2 levels will have to wait , although cannot see using them except in the hills


My take is looks like i am unpowered most of the time if using level 1
And then level 2 gets too much wattage i guess and takes off like a rocket

 

[sanglee007]

Hi Vincent,

I have a 2016 RadRover (bought in June), I did read on the forums that the PAS settings are different between 2015 & 2016 RadRovers, so I'll keep that in mind.

When I switched over to the Mini, I noticed the difference in speed @ PAS 1-3 compared to the Rover...

Speed @ Mini PAS v Rover PAS
11mph 2 1
17mph 4 3



I'll set up a test next week during my commute.

• On the same stretch of long road
• Select each PAS level
• Barely pedal
• Record Speed using GPS app on phone (maybe more accurate?)
• Record wattage @ top out for PAS level

I'm also wondering if gear inch is impacting the speed. For the same given wattage the gear inch should impact the overall speed if there are no differences in the controller. I wonder if wattage or speed is the limit as noted in the other thread on PAS about the changes from 2015 to 2016 Rover controllers.

• I'm not sure what each of the individual the 7 spd cassette gears are exactly, but it looks like there is some info saying that it is 11-28.
• With a 42 front chain ring, here are the high & low gear inch calculation from http://www.bikecalc.com/gear_inches

RadMini

Rim Size: 20
Tire Size: 4

Chainring 42
Cog 11-28

Gear Inches for this wheel in these gears
Ring Cog Gear Inch
42 11 91.6
.
.
42 28 36.0





RadRover

Rim Size: 26
Tire Size: 2.50

Chainring 42
Cog 11-28

Gear Inches for this wheel in these gears
Ring Cog Gear inch
42 11 103.2
.
.
42 28 40.5​

 

[vincent]

lol, i dont know anything about gears or how they work other than to switch the lever up and down

i contacted rad power over how ridiculously fast my late 2015 rover is in pas 2 and up
and they told me the controller in the 15 works only off speed

the controller in the 2016 works off power and speed....

my 2015 cannot use the 2016 controller because the plugs are different but radpower has a similar power/speed controller coming that does plug and play with my bike

i am impatiently awaiting this controller to get here so i can order it lol
hoping it is better

right now the bike is so fast even if barely touching the pedals in level 2 it shoots to 13 mph at full throttle, it is nuts
almost zero resistance in gear 7
so i can only ride it using throttle right now

will post back on how the new controller works as soon as i get it

hoping to ride possibly fri evening and definitely sat unless the rain follows me everywhere...
will get some high watt numbers then for whoever ask me about that

 

[sanglee007]

RadMini during my Monday commute, verified on Tuesday commute, same piece of road...very very slight uphill flat road

Radmini with tire size set to 22" - speed set to 33kph (20mph)

Rider: ~200lbs, sitting upright + Panniers with gear (approx 10lbs)
Tires: sunlite/kenda 20x4 @ 25psi

• PAS - Approx MPH -- Watt range that displayed
• 1 8.6mph 80-160w
• 2 11.5mph 180-260w
• 3 14.5mph 300-540w
• 4 18mph 400-750w
• 5 20.5.mph 540+-

I did not use a GPS app on a phone for the RadMini commute this week. Too much hassle to get it setup (it's on my RadRover)
I'm commuting the rest of the week on the RadRover, so I'll have more accurate numbers for those runs...maybe

When, I rode with my GPS app, the RadMini was dead on, approx 0.2mph difference between GPS on phone and the computer. RadRover was about 1mph lower than GPS app when set to tire size 28", but that was with the Kenda 26x4 knobbies...with the 26x2.5" Maxxis Hookworms, it should be pretty accurate.


Sang

 

[vincent]

awesome, thanks for this feedback

will probably order a mini this week

these pas watt numbers look way more "normal" to me

more controlled than what i have with the 2015 radrover
still waiting on the new controller to get to radpower

cannot wait to see your numbers for the 2016 radrover

 

[sanglee007]

Hi Vincent,

RadRover (2016) during my Wednesday commute, verified on Thursday commute, same piece of road...very very slight uphill flat road, you wouldn't notice unless you're riding a heavy bike (I first noticed on my REI Novara Gotham with a Barrow basket on front, and panniers during my first attempt to commute by bike to work last year, 40-50lbs bike)

RadRover (2016) with tire size set to 28" - Speed set to 33kph (20mph)

Rider: ~200lbs, sitting upright + Panniers with gear (approx 15lbs)
Tires: Maxxis Hookworms 26x2.5" @ 25psi (ish)

• PAS - Approx MPH - watt range that display
• 1 10mph 160
• 2 14mph 260-290
• 3 17mph 350-400
• 4 19mph 460-520
• 5 20.5mph 360-cuts out as it hits 20mph (with the street tires @ 25psi, the motor doesn't need to push as hard once the bike is moving at this speed)

The GPS app was approx 0.8-1.2 mph slower than what was displayed on the controller, depending on the speed. Which matches my previous rides with the GPS app on.


Sang

 

[vincent]

sang guessing you are taking those watt numbers from when you reach 10mph, 14 mph etc right?

have you noticed if the bike goes to 600-700 watts to get to 10mph, then jump to 14mph as you change the pas level upwards?

or are you getting a pretty consistent 160 watts to 10mph, 260-290 to 14 etc?

these numbers look different- better to me - than the ones i get on the 2015

but i was paying more attention to how the watts worked getting me to the top speed in each level, not what it does once it gets there
my 2015 tends to wide open the motor to get you up to speed in each level and then drop way off when you reach the speed the controller wants for that level


my level 1 is 0 watts as soon as i get close to 5mph
so this is definitely different on yours and seems much better, would be nice to have some mild help to 10mph

i am cautiously optimistic the radmini i just ordered will be much better pas wise than my rover is now

still no word on the different controller for the rover getting to seattle, will check in with them again tomorrow

 

[sanglee007]

Yup, the controller on the RR2016 will use all 750w to get to whatever speed the PAS is set to then back off to maintain the speed. The wattage I put in is 'how many watts to maintain the speed set by the PAS level'

• RR2016 seems to deliver a smoother push from standstill, but once moving, it'll give it the full beans to get you to your PAS speed level. It does make it tricky for slow speed maneuvering, but that can be controlled by turning to PAS 0 & using the throttle as some have noted.

• Throttle from standstill, will slow push up the wattage to get me moving to top speed.
• PAS, from standstill it will do the same to get me to pas 1 - 10mph then maintain 10mph with about 160wt if I "fake" pedal, the same is true for the other PAS
• PAS (lower) to PAS (higher) the motor will give you up to 750w until you get to those speeds. From say pas 1 to 2, it'll probably be closer to 500w, since it seems to know it's not such a big difference between 10 & 14mph.

• Overall, I think it works pretty well and is intuitive.

RadMini however... will kick you in the pants when you throttle! smaller wheels + all the torques @ 0.0001 rpm and it will get moving quick when you throttle.
With PAS, it seems a bit smoother, possibly because you have to pedal a little (can't fake pedal well from standstill, I'll fall over!) but it still quick off the line.

• To me at least, RMini seems smoother in delivery after the initial kick in the pants from 0 mph,

Sang

 

[vincent]

Well that is disappointing to hear about the pas on the 2016

This has me Rethinking getting another controller from radpower and may wait to see how the CA3 set up does on the cemoto and if i like it go that route

But from what i understand grin does not have a fat bike torque sensor i can install , so it has to be a beam set up on the chain

Will have to do some more research on that


This must be a bafang thing on the way the controllers are set up.....

My mini does not get to the bike shop until monday, they will need a day or 2
so thinking mid week or end of the week before i can get over to pick it up

Will post with my impressions of the differences on the mini and rover pas when it gets here


Sanglee i really appreciate all this feedback

 

[sanglee007]

NP, Vincent,

These are my first e-bikes, I was trying to get more data to keep track of for comparison to any other ebikes I may try out in the future

• Sondors Thin looks a bit more weatherproof with the triangle case and may be something I'd like to build into a rainy weather e-bike.
• My commute to work isn't particularly far, but with the slight uphill to work, I really appreciate the assist. I'd like to commute by bike as much as possible, so a rainy day e-bike is something I'm researching.

I confirmed that from standstill with very light pedaling with PAS set to 4/5, the RadRover will slowly start out with 100w to 200w, then once you get a little bit of speed (3-4mph?) it will give you 750w and get you going to the top speed set by your PAS.


Sang

 

[vincent]

Sang could you do that same test in level 1&2 when you get a chance

personally I am more worried about the lower two levels then the upper levels being fast

My 2015 gives you very little help in 1 but 775 watts in level 2

Thank you!

 

[sanglee007]

Vincent, I actually, did that too!

* Revised after testing PAS 1, 2 & 3. Found threshold to be 5mph as reported on the LCD

RadRover 2016

PAS 1 from standstill (I'll repeat this on my way home today and update this thread, this is what I remember from this morning)

• 0 - about 5 mph: ramps up to about 100-200w
• 5 mph, it will go up to 300-440w to get you to the top speed for those PAS levels

PAS 2 - 5 from standstill

• 0 - about 5 mph: ramps up to about 100-200w
• 5 mph, it will go up to 750w to get you to the top speed for those PAS levels

It's seems to be a pretty smart system overall. I'm very happy as it doesn't try to throw me off with just a little bit of pedaling from a stop.

I'll try this out on my RadMini next week too, it'll be interesting data to see compare how different/same they compared.

Sang

 

[vincent]

Aeesome, those level 1 and 2 sound more manageable than what mine is doing

Thanks for the info

 

[sanglee007]

Hi Vincent,

For the RadRover 2016, I did a couple of more tests last night on the way home for PAS 1, 2 & 3.

• The threshold is 5 mph (as reported on the computer)
• PAS 1
  • from 0-5mph, controller will give you 100w until about 2 mph or so then about 200w to 5mph, then 440ish to 10mph
• PAS 2-5 *Note below
  • From 0-5mph, controller will give you 100w until about 2 mph or so then about 200w to 5mph
  • From 5-Max mph, set by PAS, it will give you 750w!

So the computer is ramping up slowly to about 5mph, then will give you all the power it can until you reach the max for your for PAS 2-5. PAS 1 is a bit more civilized and only goes up to about 400w until 10mph.

Sang

* Revised PAS 2 test note: I'm pretty sure PAS 2 behaves this way, I tested it last night, but didn't immediately write down notes. I did specifically test PAS 1, 2 & 3... I think PAS 2 ramping up 750w to 14mph surprised me a little, so it stuck in my head, but it does make sense.

 

[vincent]

thanks for these numbers

wish pas2 was a little more controlled but pas 1 sounds much better than what i have on the 2015 now

i dont really care if the higher levels are fast, just want some more manageable numbers in the first 2, 90% of the time i only use level 1 and 2 on the easy motion

guess i will get the new rad controller if it ever gets here...
and by then hopefully my CA set up with torque will be done and i can compare

 

[sanglee007]

Hi Vincent,

The RadMini, is very different than my RadRover 2016

• PAS 1
  • From 0-8mph: will ramp @ about 2-3mph to 300w+- (it can go a bit over, but generally tries to stay in this range for all of the PAS levels except 5, which will give you all 750w)
• PAS 2
  • From 0-11mph: will ramp @ about 2-3mph to 400w+-
• PAS 3
  • From 0-15mph: will ramp @ about 2-3mph to 500w+-
• PAS 4
  • From 0-17mph: will ramp @ about 2-3mph to 600w+-
• PAS 5
  • From 0-20mph: will ramp @ about 2-3mph to 750w

So the RadMini computer will get to about 2-3mph (rolling) then get to near the top of the watt for the PAS level and maintain it until you reach the max speed for the PAS. With the smaller wheels, this is probably a good idea... When I use the throttle, it will give me 750w almost as soon as I get rolling and the bike feels like it wants to scoot away from me.


Sang

 

[vincent]

thanks sang, going to be interesting to compare

reminds me to write radpower again and see if the new controller came in too

my mini got to the shop today, but will probably be the end of the week before i pick it up

 

[wane]

Hey guys. Just wanted to thank you for this data. As a new Rover owner, I was sort of confused about the software. I have been fumbling back and forth with the pas settings, level 25-40kph, to get the most manageable speeds between pas 1-5. There really does not seem to be a way to set it up to use the full capability of the motor. At my current settings at pas level 40 kph. It is never possible to use levels 4 or 5 at all without it just being maxxed out at 750watts and me free pedalling and bouncing on my saddle trying to assist. With your data, It makes more sense to set the levels lower. Thanks! Ride safe!!!