Peter Flax article for Bicycling.com about the challenges presented by DTC ebikes

[Mr. Coffee]

Just saying. This is a web site with plenty of technically and mechanically adept people here and a pretty large percentage of folks on this board can't fix a flat tire. Expecting folks to adjust their brakes, much less replace brake pads, is probably not reasonable. As bizarre as that sounds to me.

Most e-bikes, and even some very high-end ones, have awful brakes. Even a lot of the hydraulic brake-equipped bikes have seriously inadequate brakes and rotors for the stoutness of the bike and likely stout riders.

 

[linklemming]

I used to have an Opal GT, which was the same as or close to a Ferrari model.

Not even close to a ferrari, more like a vette

I owned an Opal GT as my first car, best steering feedback of any car I have ever owned.

 

[mschwett]

You must be talking about some Chinese cr*p. The front brake pads on my heavy Vado 6.0 are routinely replaced each 4,000 km (2,500 mi) and the rear ones last for 8,000 km (5,000 mi) and do not require any adjustment. The brake pads on my lightweight Vado SL 4.0 have been used for 7,700 km (4,780 mi) and still need no replacement.

you live in a pretty flat place! anyone who frequently goes up and down hills will eat through brake pads at a much much much higher rate. even on my very light bike they don’t last me more than a few thousand miles. a heavier rider on a heavier bike with lots of hills… i could easily see pads lasting 1,000 miles or so.

we live on a 20% ish grade hill. no way in a million years would i allow my children to ride down it on a bike with QR skewers and mechanical disk brakes. i also lock up all our bikes and scooters and only i have the key. when my daughter and i ride, i always ask her to check her brakes on the flats before going downhill, just as i always do before a very big descent, especially if it’s after a very long climb in which the brakes haven’t been used.

so many things could have prevented this tragedy, some by rad, some by the parents.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

you live in a pretty flat place! anyone who frequently goes up and down hills will eat through brake pads at a much much much higher rate. even on my very light bike they don’t last me more than a few thousand miles. a heavier rider on a heavier bike with lots of hills… i could easily see pads lasting 1,000 miles or so.

we live on a 20% ish grade hill. no way in a million years would i allow my children to ride down it on a bike with QR skewers and mechanical disk brakes. i also lock up all our bikes and scooters and only i have the key. when my daughter and i ride, i always ask her to check her brakes on the flats before going downhill, just as i always do before a very big descent, especially if it’s after a very long climb in which the brakes haven’t been used.

Fair enough! Indeed, I could notice more extensive brake pads wear on my mountain trips. Indeed, I used to ride my QR e-bike (with hydraulic brakes) in a pretty flat area only and even would not think to take that e-bike in the mountains.

so many things could have prevented this tragedy, some by rad, some by the parents.

So true.

 

[PDoz]

Just saying. This is a web site with plenty of technically and mechanically adept people here and a pretty large percentage of folks on this board can't fix a flat tire. Expecting folks to adjust their brakes, much less replace brake pads, is probably not reasonable. As bizarre as that sounds to me.

Most e-bikes, and even some very high-end ones, have awful brakes. Even a lot of the hydraulic brake-equipped bikes have seriously inadequate brakes and rotors for the stoutness of the bike and likely stout riders.

I suspect this is a cultural difference - most of the people in the (rural ) Australian town I live in are, er, fiercely independent ( too cheap to pay proffesionals) +/- too lazy to do things when the kids could be doing them....

Fixing flats....I've tried teaching the kids....my theory is they are pretending to struggle

 

[m@Robertson]

my theory is they are pretending to struggle

hah! One of my chores at home was to dry the dishes after dinner, when one of my parents did the washing. At some point they decided I should do the washing as well. For some reason I was incapable of doing a good washing job, and soon after I was only doing the drying again.

 

[PDoz]

hah! One of my chores at home was to dry the dishes after dinner, when one of my parents did the washing. At some point they decided I should do the washing as well. For some reason I was incapable of doing a good washing job, and soon after I was only doing the drying again.

My wife calls it weaponized incompetence

 

[PDoz]

so many things could have prevented this tragedy, some by rad, some by the parents.

I've been thinking about this - do your schools provide bike education? Eg https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/saf...afety-education/primary-schools/about-bike-ed

We saw a flow on effect of the compulsory helmet laws introduced in the 1980's , with a demographic of parents who grew up without cycling being popular. Ie Their children missed out on having parents who could teach the basics like road craft, mechanical skills etc. Then they hit the roads without the traffic skills developed as a cyclist..... Two generations later, the education system is playing catchup - and both cycling rates as well of accident rates are tracking down, bikes are back.

I sometimes forget that I was lucky enough to get hooked before helmet laws kicked in, and as an older parent I had different childhood opportunities to the other parents .

I'm getting dangerously close to blaming the goverment / schools here, when whatI'm really doing is pondering opportunities for helping our future cyclists

 

[Tars Tarkas]

Suppose this had been a $20,000 top of the line e-bike with all of the finest components and had just been fully inspected and maintained by a trained professional e-bike mechanic. From what I've been able to understand about Enchanted Way I don't think, if the parents were paying attention, that they would have told their 11 year old kids, "Go for it! Have fun!!" A highly experienced adult rider would use an abundance of caution riding down that street. 11 year old kids don't understand the risks and/or don't care, not to mention that they don't have the skill set required. A bike could easily hit 40+ mph on that slope and the kids would be screaming with excitement until the last instant.

In that neighborhood especially, one could make a good case that all bikes should be locked up with the parents holding the keys.

I don't mean to say that it isn't possible that Rad has some liability in this, but I don't think parents should assume that the world is their babysitter and that anything and eveything their kids come in contact with when they are out of sight is going to be safe for them to play with. I really think most of Rad's liability comes from their relatively deep pockets.

The bike and e-bike industry should look to this tragedy for ways to improve safety, for sure. Better bikes, yes, but better manuals, better education, including mechanics and riding classes available in schools or out, perhaps with some kind of certification and maybe age limits. Parents should really pay attention to this tragedy too and realize that kids need guidance.

TT

 

[PDoz]

. 11 year old kids don't understand the risks and/or don't care, not to mention that they don't have the skill set required. A bike could easily hit 40+ mph on that slope and the kids would be screaming with excitement until the last instant.

Parents should really pay attention to this tragedy too and realize that kids need guidance.

TT

In my experience, an 11 yo CAN understand and care about both the risks involved and the skill required, and yes they go produce happy noises.

Daughter 1 , I think she was 11 but approaching 12 - this rocky trail drops 560 m in 3 km ( ski lift back up) . Somewhere between 11 and 12 yo , 2/3 of my kids had developed skills above mine and a reasonable understanding of risk. The other child is lucky enough to avoid the adrenaline gene. But we talk about it, and very much encourage them to take responsibility - Including THEM checking what the pro at the bike shop did.

PS , someone earlier mentioned a " golden rule" about not using the front brake? Good luck with that!

 

[JedidiahStolzfus]

PS , someone earlier mentioned a " golden rule" about not using the front brake? Good luck with that!

I don't know if that's referencing me or not, but I did mention it, but not in the way you stated. I never said about not using it, but that many people, when they get into trouble, panic, and grab and squeeze hard. It can and should be used, but I believe that many new riders aren't aware that you can't just grab it the same way you can grab the rear brake.

Judging from what you can find in youtube and tiktok videos, many don't understand physics.

 

[tomjasz]

I don't know if that's referencing me or not, but I did mention it, but not in the way you stated. I never said about not using it, but that many people, when they get into trouble, panic, and grab and squeeze hard. It can and should be used, but I believe that many new riders aren't aware that you can't just grab it the same way you can grab the rear brake.

Judging from what you can find in youtube and tiktok videos, many don't understand physics.

Ask in any thread how many eBike riders have ever done braking and avoidance drills as one would in a motorcycle training class, with their eBike. Does anyone know their panic braking distance? Ever practice panic stops?
And then the n00bs come here and are told to "plug your pack in overnight to balance the cells..."

Bad information is all too common. Early on kit builds had NO MANUALS!!! NADA! Thanks to some great early adopters we survived. And best practices became more common.

 

[mschwett]

Ask in any thread how many eBike riders have ever done braking and avoidance drills as one would in a motorcycle training class, with their eBike. Does anyone know their panic braking distance? Ever practice panic stops?
And then the n00bs come here and are told to "plug your pack in overnight to balance the sells..."

Bad information is all too common. Early on kit builds had NO MANUALS!!! NADA! Thanks to some great early adopters we survived. And best practices became more common.

the frustrating thing is that there really isn’t anything “new” about eBikes. the same best practices and pitfalls that apply to every use of large lithium base batteries apply here. the same best practices of road safety that have applied for decades. the same bike handling and basic maintenance needs.

it’s just a new-ish combination of things, attracting a new crop of users (this is good!) who are either not aware of or ignore all the old knowledge (this is bad!)

 

[Asher]

so many things could have prevented this tragedy, some by rad, some by the parents.

(Not an argument with you We have a long standing convention of prosecuting makers of cribs that lead to babies dying - even if the death was caused by someone absentmindedly misusing the crib. Because ultimately we hold crib makers to a high standard or we get dead babies. And also why we mandate backup cameras.

So it doesn't necessarily matter that the parents or the child may have done some things wrong, it's if Rad did anything to contribute to it.

I think it's difficult to say in this specific instance, BUT: even if Steinsapir's crash had never happened, there is simply too much smoke to assume there are no Rad Powered-fires.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1622616109676662785

 

[Gordon71]

So basically kids doing something stupid on a poorly maintained bike. Doing stupid things is a pretty big part of their job description.

 

[Rossterman]

The parents are lawyers, so they are doing what they do best. And since it's personal to them, of course they threw everything they could think of into the effort. Their pain is real. They are naturally very angry, upset, and zealous. I don't blame them a bit. And most likely this case will settle before trial, with a payout that makes the parents feel somewhat vindicated and that makes Rad's liability insurance rate go up. But the hole in their lives will still be there, no getting around that.

Standing back from this, my thought is that kids are kids: they lack the good judgment that comes with experience. Who doesn't love sailing down a big hill, whether it be on a sled or a wheeled contraption? For a kid, the faster the better. Like an amusement park ride. Only, they don't know how fast is too fast. So I'm thinking they were getting their giggles: let's see how fast we can go! Until suddenly the 'driver' realized they had to slow down, but couldn't maintain control while trying. That's my guess. I could be wrong.

Plenty of good pieces of equipment can fail to do what you want them to, given the right (actually the wrong) set of circumstances. And even barring an equipment failure, people make errors in judgment all the blinkin' time. Even adults. But especially kids. Last winter a kid got killed on a city street when his sled came down the hill and went onto the street, right in front of a pickup. Accidents happen too fast to do anything about it. That's why they call them 'accidents.'

For all we know, this ebike accident could have happened on any brand of ebike, or on any regular bike. Who can say?

It’s terrible to lose a child but I can’t help but see the parents share some culpability in this. Typical lawyers stuff where they want to blame everyone but the person responsible.

 

[Rossterman]

In my experience, an 11 yo CAN understand and care about both the risks involved and the skill required, and yes they go produce happy noises.

Daughter 1 , I think she was 11 but approaching 12 - this rocky trail drops 560 m in 3 km ( ski lift back up) . Somewhere between 11 and 12 yo , 2/3 of my kids had developed skills above mine and a reasonable understanding of risk. The other child is lucky enough to avoid the adrenaline gene. But we talk about it, and very much encourage them to take responsibility - Including THEM checking what the pro at the bike shop did.View attachment 146312


PS , someone earlier mentioned a " golden rule" about not using the front brake? Good luck with that!

I think the difference is you took the time to teach and observe them vs. just turning them loose and hoping for the best. That will Always result in 2 different outcomes.

 

[Asher]

It’s terrible to lose a child but I can’t help but see the parents share some culpability in this. Typical lawyers stuff where they want to blame everyone but the person responsible.

If you blame the parents, nothing will change. If you blame Rad, Rad will be pressured to make better bikes, and reduce the risk.

So is blaming "a company that took in $300 million in institutional capital and put $40 brakes on a 65-pound bike" worse than losing a child?

 

[mschwett]

It’s terrible to lose a child but I can’t help but see the parents share some culpability in this. Typical lawyers stuff where they want to blame everyone but the person responsible.

of course they do, and as a parent you can never escape the feeling of responsibility for literally everything that happens to your child. but mostly likely SOME of the responsibility is on rad, and as @Asher noted above, that’s actually the question. not “is this entirely rad’s fault.”

if one of my kids got hit by a car that sped through a stop sign because it’s brakes failed, i would feel responsible because they should have looked both ways, seen a car that wasn’t decelerating, and not crossed. the driver would be far more responsible, and depending on the cause of the brake failure, the manufacturer, mechanic, dealer, etc would be most responsible.

unfortunately we don’t know enough about the crash here to apportion that responsibility. the courts will have to decide that. at least on the surface, it doesn’t seem like the QR-disc combo is the smoking gun.

“The complaint’s description of the quick release loosening due to interaction with the disc brake use is novel, and probably wrong—I can’t think of how that would happen in normal use,” says legendary bike engineer Keith Bontrager, who read the document. “It is not clear what specific chain of events led to the loss of control, whether it was a mechanical failure or rider error. From the limited information available, it does not seem like the front wheel separated from the fork.”

 

[PDoz]

If you blame the parents, nothing will change. If you blame Rad, Rad will be pressured to make better bikes, and reduce the risk.

So is blaming "a company that took in $300 million in institutional capital and put $40 brakes on a 65-pound bike" worse than losing a child?

The patents have already blamed another parent and cashed in.

Imagine a world where RAD could stand up in court and cross examine the parents, then perhaps even seek compensation for the bullying / public shaming / stress of this process. Sadly, our insurance companies decide it's less risky to settle out of court