Peter Flax article for Bicycling.com about the challenges presented by DTC ebikes

[Rexlion]

The parents are lawyers, so they are doing what they do best. And since it's personal to them, of course they threw everything they could think of into the effort. Their pain is real. They are naturally very angry, upset, and zealous. I don't blame them a bit. And most likely this case will settle before trial, with a payout that makes the parents feel somewhat vindicated and that makes Rad's liability insurance rate go up. But the hole in their lives will still be there, no getting around that.

Standing back from this, my thought is that kids are kids: they lack the good judgment that comes with experience. Who doesn't love sailing down a big hill, whether it be on a sled or a wheeled contraption? For a kid, the faster the better. Like an amusement park ride. Only, they don't know how fast is too fast. So I'm thinking they were getting their giggles: let's see how fast we can go! Until suddenly the 'driver' realized they had to slow down, but couldn't maintain control while trying. That's my guess. I could be wrong.

Plenty of good pieces of equipment can fail to do what you want them to, given the right (actually the wrong) set of circumstances. And even barring an equipment failure, people make errors in judgment all the blinkin' time. Even adults. But especially kids. Last winter a kid got killed on a city street when his sled came down the hill and went onto the street, right in front of a pickup. Accidents happen too fast to do anything about it. That's why they call them 'accidents.'

For all we know, this ebike accident could have happened on any brand of ebike, or on any regular bike. Who can say?

 

[Rexlion]

I'd like you to show me where is the speed limit or Class of RR2 listed on the RR2 webpage.

RadRunner™ 2 Electric Utility Bike

Our moped-style electric bike is designed to ride like a utility cargo ebike. 300+ accessory combinations help carry everything — even your best friend.

www.radpowerbikes.com

"Our moped style" says it all about that Chinese cr*p.

As I say, I do not want to go on a legal debate here.

What if someone mounted a Lamborghini body on a Fiat chassis? Does that make it a Lamborghini? Maybe it's "Lamborghini style" but that fact won't buy a cup of coffee.

 

[JedidiahStolzfus]

What if someone mounted a Lamborghini body on a Fiat chassis? Does that make it a Lamborghini? Maybe it's "Lamborghini style" but that fact won't buy a cup of coffee.

I used to have an Opal GT, which was the same as or close to a Ferrari model.

 

[JedidiahStolzfus]

For all we know, this ebike accident could have happened on any brand of ebike, or on any regular bike. Who can say?

If these cheap chinese pieces of crap are so dangerously designed you'd think we'd be hearing about blood on the MUPs every day. How many has RR sold, tens, hundreds of thousands, maybe a million? I don't know, but if they're so badly designed you'd think we'd be hearing about them.

 

[Nomad]

The parents are lawyers, so they are doing what they do best. And since it's personal to them, of course they threw everything they could think of into the effort. Their pain is real. They are naturally very angry, upset, and zealous. I don't blame them a bit. And most likely this case will settle before trial, with a payout that makes the parents feel somewhat vindicated and that makes Rad's liability insurance rate go up. But the hole in their lives will still be there, no getting around that.

Standing back from this, my thought is that kids are kids: they lack the good judgment that comes with experience. Who doesn't love sailing down a big hill, whether it be on a sled or a wheeled contraption? For a kid, the faster the better. Like an amusement park ride. Only, they don't know how fast is too fast. So I'm thinking they were getting their giggles: let's see how fast we can go! Until suddenly the 'driver' realized they had to slow down, but couldn't maintain control while trying. That's my guess. I could be wrong.

Plenty of good pieces of equipment can fail to do what you want them to, given the right (actually the wrong) set of circumstances. And even barring an equipment failure, people make errors in judgment all the blinkin' time. Even adults. But especially kids. Last winter a kid got killed on a city street when his sled came down the hill and went onto the street, right in front of a pickup. Accidents happen too fast to do anything about it. That's why they call them 'accidents.'

For all we know, this ebike accident could have happened on any brand of ebike, or on any regular bike. Who can say?

Isn't part of what's going on with rad is that there trying to determine if parts were a factor? I'm not saying they were or weren't but if that was the case the whole thing about happening on any brand would go right out the window.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

For all we know, this ebike accident could have happened on any brand of ebike, or on any regular bike. Who can say?

I said I wanted to avoid participating in a legal dispute here. Just speculating:

Could those girls nick the daddy's car and go on the ride? Could they operate a car without any training? Could any of them be big enough to be able to physically operate the car? Would any of them even think of driving a car? A motorcycle?

Could they mount a regular size bike or e-bike? Would the other girl be able to sit on the rear rack of a regular bike or e-bike? Would any of them even think of mounting a regular sized bike?

It seems that the girls broke the law riding the dachshund sized RR because minors are not allowed riding e-bikes. Did the parents tell any of the girls not to ride an e-bike?

So many questions.

 

[PDoz]

I said I wanted to avoid participating in a legal dispute here. Just speculating:

Could those girls nick the daddy's car and go on the ride? Could they operate a car without any training? Could any of them be big enough to be able to physically operate the car? Would any of them even think of driving a car? A motorcycle?

Could they mount a regular size bike or e-bike? Would the other girl be able to sit on the rear rack of a regular bike or e-bike? Would any of them even think of mounting a regular sized bike?

It seems that the girls broke the law riding the dachshund sized RR because minors are not allowed riding e-bikes. Did the parents tell any of the girls not to ride an e-bike?

So many questions.

Strange questions

Yes, an 11 yo can operate a car with other children aboard - exhibit A. They all started ( supervised) around 9 yo and could handle a manual from around 11 yo.

Motorbike? Easy - around here kids get their first motorbike around 5/6 yo .

Full size bike? Again, @ 12 yo my youngest son on my old giant full epro ( size m adult emtb)

 

[Stefan Mikes]

PDoz: this is because your children have been educated by you, an aware parent.
It does not look it was the case in the discussed Californian matter. Your kids do not ride DTC e-bikes, either. (In the DTC e-bike you do not need to pedal).

P.S. The 7/8 yo son of the MTB friend I mentioned in our earlier communication has been already trained by his father on a bike appropriate for the boy's size. As the boy is bigger now, he asked his Dad for a small Enduro bike so he could ride together with his big brother. That's the proper parental care. Was it the case in California?

 

[Gordon71]

I don't want to discuss the legal matters here, just technicals.

View attachment 145978
Is this a bicycle or a mini motorcycle?

View attachment 145983
Does it look a bicycle?

Nothing wrong with QR and disk brakes as long as the vehicle is a bicycle. Even an electrically assisted one.

I guess if one is going to be truly technical, all EBikes are motorcycles because they all have motors. On the other hand they are also all bicycles because they can be powered by pedals without using the motor. In the end they are simply all Ebikes.

 

[Mike_V]

F=MA applied to model her traumatic injury from this accident will result in a likely fatality for any body who flies through the air and hits any thing on the way down.
Helmet or no, it will break your neck.
Hence the old saying 'BREAKNECK speed'

"0.3 mile of Enchanted Way rises 150 feet, with a sustained pitch topping 14 percent."

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Hmmm... Just saying, but QR skewers + disk brakes is not a new problem in the bike industry:

Bicycle industry issues its biggest voluntary recall due to disc brake QR concern

Millions of disc brake bikes under recall due to quick release skewers that may pose a serious safety threat. See if yours is on the list and/or determine if it's safe.

www.bikeroar.com

I quote from the article:

QR Safety Recall Poster
by bicycleretailer.com

The issue is said to only affect disc brake bikes equipped with quick release skewers, the lever of which can then enter the disc brake rotor. (A list of affected bike brands at the end of this article.)

This follows a similar recall involving Trek Bicycle earlier this year in which nearly 1 million Trek bikes were recalled due to the same quick-release/disc brake concerns.

And this little gem is food for thought (emphasis is mine):

The problem with the quick-release skewers in question is that if they are not tightened properly or are left partially open, the lever can travel too far and come in contact with the brake disc, causing the front wheel to come to a sudden stop or separate from the bicycle.

Now it is damned plausible to me that a cheap bike with no-name parts could have the same design defect(s) as higher-end bikes. Just saying.

A little more bike-tech take on this issue (mostly about the earlier Trek recall):

Our Angle on the Trek Quick-Release Recall

A recall in April, 2015 affected nearly 1,000,000 Trek bicycles.A quick-release lever could open too far, and get caught in the disk-brake rotor, resulting a crash. This article examines that issue and related ones, and tries to draw some lessons.

www.sheldonbrown.com

Now the executive summary is that in 2015 2.5 million name-brand bicycles from reputable manufacturers were recalled for a potentially catastrophic problem with disk brakes and QR skewers. Failure could cause the wheel to lock or cause the wheel to separate from the bike while the bike was in motion. It would not be at all surprising to me if many inexpensive bikes and e-bikes with no-name parts have similar defects that are not yet found. If the Radrunner had a similar problem Rad would be 100 percent on the hook for this accident. Also, given how parts sourcing happens (parts become unavailable and different parts are often substituted) it is plausible to me that only some Radrunners have this problem.

 

[m@Robertson]

When news of this lawsuit first broke I said right away that this could portend serious changes to ebike manufacturing. The issue with QR on the front fork is not so much that rider incompetence can cause a problem (it can, but thats been true since the QR's introduction many decades ago, so not such a big deal IMHO). The real issue is the addition of disk brakes into the mix, and the subsequent failure of most low-cost bikes to implement QR-safe dropouts, which look like they are put on backwards, but in fact they prevent the QR from popping out except under the most egregious kind of inattention. Pretty much every ebike has the old-school fork dropouts and this is an obvious liability issue, completely unaddressed by Chinese parts manufacturers who are effectively immune from lawsuits.

Also, the article points out something that has been an obvious issue since the earliest days of low cost DTC ebikes: Mechanical brakes. Ebikes are very heavy, and riders who start out out-of-shape who ordinarily would never be on a bicycle in the first place compound the problem: Cabled brakes suffer from quickly-stretching cables on a big, heavy ebike with a heavy rider who is hauling the bike down from speeds consistently higher than seen on analog bikes. Cabled brakes are still up to the task, but to be so, they have to be serviced (cables re-tightened to account for the ongoing stretch) at a high rate of frequency. Thats something the article did a very good job of pointing out the RR suffers from via a fairly decent sample of novice riders in the LA area. The solution is uprated brakes that are hydraulic. But those cost more to spec on the bike. Not living up to that higher standard is the second big failure that I expect will be found in terms of parts suitability on the RR.

Looking at that hill, there's no way in hell any bike of any kind should be doing anything but laying on the brakes and going slow. It reminds me of the one I have to come down at my home and I start off slowwww and stay that way in order to be able to stop at the bottom. There's definitely some personal responsibility there on the part of the parents, but it sounds like they have already addressed that with a $1.5 milion dollar settlement with the parents of the girl who was the bike owner.

 

[Gordon71]

Like I said when this was posted before, When I want to remove the front wheel on my Rad Rover I have to completely remove the axel and, even then, smack the tire with a rubber mallet to get it to drop out.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Pretty much every ebike has the old-school fork dropouts

Interestingly, three of four e-bikes I used to own have had thru-axle and hydraulic disk brakes. The fourth one is a DTC (although you can buy the brand via LBS) and it indeed has a QR and disk brakes (hydraulic ones). So I don't know where yours "pretty much every e-bike" came from.

 

[m@Robertson]

Interestingly, three of four e-bikes I used to own have had thru-axle and hydraulic disk brakes. The fourth one is a DTC (although you can buy the brand via LBS) and it indeed has a QR and disk brakes (hydraulic ones). So I don't know where yours "pretty much every e-bike" came from.

Look around, then. I see no exceptions to the mass market consumer DTC bikes are as-described in terms of the fork dropout orientation, when spec'd for QR. You do see some bike swith hydros although they are generally touted as an upgrade when they should be part of even the most base model. A Chinese-manufactured ebike with thru axle... not many of those if any. Frey perhaps. I do know the Sondors MXS has a thru axle.

EDIT: You have to keep in mind you have deliberately positioned yourself at the high end of the market and that is not the sort of bike this discussion is about.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I see no exceptions to the mass market consumer DTC bikes are as-described in terms of the fork dropouts.

If you were talking about cheap DTC e-bikes then you were right. You pay US$1,499 so what would you expect to get?

Generally, good LBS e-bikes are above three grands.

 

[Gordon71]

If you were talking about cheap DTC e-bikes then you were right. You pay US$1,499 so what would you expect to get?

Generally, good LBS e-bikes are above three grands.

Problem with that is an LBS would charge $3,000 for a $1500 DTC bike.

 

[m@Robertson]

If you were talking about cheap DTC e-bikes then you were right. You pay US$1,499 so what would you expect to get?

Generally, good LBS e-bikes are above three grands.

Yes but as noted above (in a late edit) that is the sort of bike being discussed here, not 'good LBS ebikes'.

My position is every ebike no matter what the price point should have hydraulic brakes since they are more suited to maintenance-free severe duty, do not suffer from cable stretch etc. etc. etc. The complaints about leaking that you hear from mechanical brake proponents are atypical and not a valid indictment against hydro brake use.

Of the forks that use QR, I don't see anything using modern dropouts. I see them a lot in the BMX world but thats it. Seems like this is the cheapest way to address the use of disk brakes and both QR and axle bolts. Maybe add in lawyer lips. Not that such is a good thing for performance, but it is for averting liability.

 

[PDoz]

Yes but as noted above (in a late edit) that is the sort of bike being discussed here, not 'good LBS ebikes'.

My position is every ebike no matter what the price point should have hydraulic brakes since they are more suited to maintenance-free severe duty, do not suffer from cable stretch etc. etc. etc. The complaints about leaking that you hear from mechanical brake proponents are atypical and not a valid indictment against hydro brake use.

Of the forks that use QR, I don't see anything using modern dropouts. I see them a lot in the BMX world but thats it. Seems like this is the cheapest way to address the use of disk brakes and both QR and axle bolts. Maybe add in lawyer lips. Not that such is a good thing for performance, but it is for averting liability.

View attachment 146035

I'm surprised by the brake discussion in that article - the journalist mentions his 2 kids having repeated issues with the brakes. HE checks / adjusts them every couple of weeks +/- frequently replaces pads.

WTF ???

If the bike needs regular maintenance, teach the user ( kid) how to inspect / adjust!!! Develop people with independence and personal responsibility, not someone who needs daddy to make sure everything is ok.

More importantly, if you recognize the product doesn't live up to expectations - fix it? Surely a decent set of 4 pot brakes and a larger disc is a lot safer ( and eventually cheaper) than throwing in new pads / adjusting cable stretch every couple of weeks ?

 

[m@Robertson]

WTF ???

Yes but all of what you say implies personal responsibility for one's own safety and wellbeing. In the USA people expect this to is done for them as part of the purchase price. And further, people don't understand that ebikes are a bicycle-shaped-object ... not a bicycle. They think that level of maintenance oversight is ridiculous, which maybe it is on a kid's neighborhood analog bicycle. They fail to connect the dots re: the implications of increased weight and speed.

I learned to do my own work on my own bicycle (a Miyata 310) in the 1970's... because I needed it to ride to work every day after school. And to school, for that matter. I either did all the work or I had to pay someone to do it, so I learned.