PEEK Gear for the Ultra Needed

[reed scott]

I likely would, but until I take delivery of my bike, I really don't know how "loud" loud is. I've heard some noise on YouTube videos, but i don't know how that translates to my ear when riding through the city.

Fascinating thread, BTW. I like when I learn things about things that aren't a part of my world.

A trio of crickets with laryngitis makes about as much noise as an X1 motor.

 

[greeno]

I wonder how many people actually blew out their "Nylon Gear" on their BBSHD or BBS02 for that matter. I was on a ride a couple of years ago and bike would throttle up but chainring wouldn't turn. I figured it was the nylon gear right thats the weak link I had heard about.

But no it ended up being the main pinion drive gear which is part of the rotor. Everything else was fine. Replaced a ton of controllers and a few bearings but no nylon gears.
Now the G510 uses steel/steel gearing and it does make some noise when winding up but it's not enough to bother me to change it out for something possibly weaker to get a few db's quieter. JMO.

 

[brake034]

Anyways I know a guy who has all the tools to machine these, I have reached out to see if he could maybe make a prototype.
If he can I will need to get a real sample first, then sourcing the best raw PEEK material, but it's not cheap look at this
PEEK RAW STOCK

What's the status of the peek sourcing now? If needed I can use my contacts to get sample peek rod material but need to know the diameter needed.

 

[Ebiker33]

What's the status of the peek sourcing now? If needed I can use my contacts to get sample peek rod material but need to know the diameter needed.

30mm or 1.25 inches Small
55mm or 2.25 inches Large
2 bearings of the exact size slightly smaller than the above.
connecting rod for them all
Should be bearing grade PEEK, which I believe is black not natural in color.
We need an actual sample of the whole assembly for the shop to look at and covert to the specifications.
I need to reach out to a machine shop that does R & D for gears, they had samples of them in their front office when I dropped off goods for them they are one of my customers, I think they could do it.
Just not sure how much it would cost.

I think the goal would be to build a few prototypes and have them tested by Pushkar, there are some other companies in the industry I would like to test these as well.
Respected companies need to prove to themselves the cost upgrade is worth it for the noise reduction, then they can also convince potential customers of it's added value.
We have no idea what the decibel reduction would be, a 1 decibel reduction isn't worth it. I believe the current loudest decibel rating for the ultra is around 55db.
I believe the goal is to have these motors reduced in noise to the point the tire noise is heard over the motor noise on a trail when you pass people when the motor is fully engaged or in throttle mode.

Here is a question for people that already own a ultra and Pushkar too, if you have traditionally MTB knobby tires and you ride on concrete is the tire noise already drowning out the motor noise ?
How about the larger fat tires 4" plus, some have said that noise(tire hum) overpowers everything ?
Luna did a test video and that seemed to be the case.

 

[Cuz Vinny]

Just an FYI, but owners of the Luna X1 with the M600 motor are reporting failures of the Peek gear with the Ludicrous controller (2000w).

 

[Bubba zanetti]

Just an FYI, but owners of the Luna X1 with the M600 motor are reporting failures of the Peek gear with the Ludicrous controller (2000w).

I’m not surprised.
On my Rize, I really only hear the motor on steep hills or slow speed as I accelerate. Otherwise the tire sound drowns out the whirrr, as I go faster.
An aspect of this for me is that such a powerful motor might best be designed with a fail point. A cheaper gear that fails before the main bits wear with more catastrophic results. That might be unrealistic, but it does cross my mind.

 

[Ebiker33]

Just an FYI, but owners of the Luna X1 with the M600 motor are reporting failures of the Peek gear with the Ludicrous controller (2000w).

Those are probably from throttling from a dead stop in the wrong gear or uphill, there is a very good reason Pushkar testing, limits the X1 to 750W with a throttle. A 2000W burst is going to kill components, we know this.

 

[pushkar]

Those are probably from throttling from a dead stop in the wrong gear or uphill, there is a very good reason Pushkar testing, limits the X1 to 750W with a throttle. A 2000W burst is going to kill components, we know this.

More details
1. With the new factory installed "PEEK" gear on the m600, we are limiting the nominal to 750W as well (peak at 1100).

2. In the demo m600 motor , PEEK (on pedal assist) begins to show signs of shearing at 1400-1500W (sustained). The remaining gears are still metal - they create a LOT of heat.

3. With metal gears, m600 can support 1000W nominal, 1500W peak. However it does get quite hot at 1000W continuous.

 

[Ebiker33]

There are three different types of "PEEK" plastics

Natural, Glass Reinforced, and Bearing Grade which is black and the most costly.
To date nobody has made the black one, I think based on price alone Luna has been using the natural PEEK.
I have reached out to a PEEK specialist to see what their opinion is on the best type to use for this, stage one of this use the strongest and best PEEK on the market.

Spec sheet on the bearing grade one in black

Touching on Pushkar comments on the heat factor, notice that it can run continually at 500F, I think if your motor is running at 500F your going to have other issues beyond deflecting gears.

 

[pushkar]

There are three different types of "PEEK" plastics

Natural, Glass Reinforced, and Bearing Grade which is black and the most costly.
To date nobody has made the black one, I think based on price alone Luna has been using the natural PEEK.
I have reached out to a PEEK specialist to see what their opinion is on the best type to use for this, stage one of this use the strongest and best PEEK on the market.

Spec sheet on the bearing grade one in black

Touching on Pushkar comments on the heat factor, notice that it can run continually at 500F, I think if your motor is running at 500F your going to have other issues beyond deflecting gears.

Ask them about carbon infused PEEK too please. There is a lot of stiffness you can get with fiber, but not sure if it adds a lot in a gear form factor.

 

[Ebiker33]

Ask them about carbon infused PEEK too please. There is a lot of stiffness you can get with fiber, but not sure if it adds a lot in a gear form factor.

This one has carbon fibers and graphite embedded in it giving a black color.
Here is what they say about it
" We suplement the PEEK base polymer with 10% each of PTFE, graphite, and carbon fibre. That makes TECAPEEK PVX an ultra high performance bearing material that incorporates the properties of a premium polymeric matrix material, with optimum levels of specific wear enhancing additives. It is ideally suited for technical bearing and wear applications."

 

[Merle Nelson]

If any of the dedicated innovators/inventors/mechanics want to experiment with PEEK we could do an informal "fund raiser".

Those who put in hours of creative thought, actual work, and devoted passion should not also be pulling the money out of their own pocket.

 

[brake034]

The 30% graphite, carbon and ptfe has a lower friction coefficient but the distortion temperature is at 293oC lower than peek with 30% carbon which rates at 325oC.

Also the tensile strength of 30% carbon is 210 MPa compared to 134 MPa of the carbon/graphite/ptfe compound.

Furthermore the bending-, compression- and impact strength values of 30% carbon are higher than the ones of the carbon/graphite/ptfe compound.

I am checking to see what the material supplier recommends for gears, I am also getting prices for the rods, minimal order qty is 1 kilo only.

 

[brake034]

The manufacturer recommends 30% carbon for gears. They have 12 years of experience with this material in gear making.

 

[Ebiker33]

View attachment 83611
The manufacturer recommends 30% carbon for gears. They have 12 years of experience with this material in gear making.

Interesting, we seem to be making progress on the material stock, so the recommendation is 30% carbon fibre imbedded within the PEEK plastic.
Does it have a brand name?

 

[brake034]

I want to keep the material source confidential at the moment, they stock the required compound in the sizes you mentioned so delivery of rod material can be quick. I am waiting for the prices.

They can also do steel cores with PEEK gear rings but this requires the steel core to be bonded to the PEEK during the injection process. This makes it more expensive and requires higher order quantities as a new mould would be needed for these gears.

 

[brake034]

The 2 rods in PEEK with 30% carbon fiber, diameter 30mm and 55mm, rod length 1 meter, total weight 5.6 kilo are about US$ 1000 including freight to USA.

 

[Ebiker33]

The 2 rods in PEEK with 30% carbon fiber, diameter 30mm and 55mm, rod length 1 meter, total weight 5.6 kilo are about US$ 1000 including freight to USA.

Do you have a CNC shop in your city that could machine out a prototype ?

 

[brake034]

Do you have a CNC shop in your city that could machine out a prototype ?

Maybe but it won't be on a CNC lathe, I currently live near Wing 5 of Prachuap Khiri Khan airforce base in Southern Thailand for a few months a year, the rest of the year I spend at home in the Chiang Rai province of Northern Thailand. I would need to do some shopping to do prototyping here ......

 

[Bubba zanetti]

Fascinating stuff.