Orbea Gain D50 ( User learning and experiences )

[AntonioAlfaro]

Totally agree. Such a small hub motor and a 250W/h battery are optimized to make the Ebike not gain much weight. It is clear that the system has an optimal point of operation and in this case Mahle recommends staying between 15 to 20 KM/h. On the flat this is easy to maintain but already on steep slopes things change drastically and if we depend a lot on the battery, we will deplete it quickly. I think we can pre-plan our outings and have a close estimate on battery consumption.
To be able to plan an outing it is essential to know what my current power profile is and to know in detail the altimetry that we will face.
I want to explain that in the next few days.

 

[ngg]

How did you estimated the distance? 200km -- 70km is a very big
uncertainty range.
My methodology tries to have much more certainty. In the next few days I will continue with my explanations.
Do you know your power profile W/Kg?

you have this information in two places in the Mahle application. The first is in Engineering mode and the second is in the real-time bike ride window.

 

[r1roman]

I will summarize my experience with the x35 engine, I had Orbea Gain for 2 years and I changed it to Bianchi, which is the one I have now for two years, that is, between the two, 4 years, I have traveled around 32,000 km between the two, with the current configuration I can perform over 120km with 1,600mts of accumulated difference in altitude I have an additional battery for harder routes in kms and difference in level, the motor is more efficient on climbs with more cadence than less cadence, the resistance is more noticeable in other words, I usually roll a lot without assistance when the terrain allows it, the rest in mode 1 and punctual mode 2 mode 3 I have hardly ever used, as I said the weight of the cyclist, profile of the route, state of form and level of assistance are what determine consumption. in the photo you can see the additional battery, it is not the official one from orbea, the official one gives software problems this one does not. configuration l1 70,L2 65,L3 80.

 

[ngg]

ngg, it is very easy to explain. As you slow down, the rear wheel RPM drops. The motor needs to slow down its rotation (to be in phase with the rear wheel), getting into the point on the characteristics when it becomes inefficient. However, the power produced by the motor is not depending on your leg input power.

I have oversimplified the matter totally. It is because I used to ride my Lovelec in the plains only. Of course, as you climb, you need to increase assistance. Or, your wheel/motor slow down so much the motor gets into the inefficient range. Bear in mind: climbing means a big increase in the potential energy accumulated in your body + bike mass. That energy can only come from your legs, or from your battery.

To further clarify: I have ridden for 4000 km on my hub-drive Lovelec, so I have a good understanding how hub-drives do work. As I was riding my Lovelec only on the flat, I enjoyed its very good average (and predictable) speed as well as predictable power consumption (the electronics of Lovelec even "didn't stand next to" what you have in your Orbea e-bikes!) My only complaint on that e-bike was it was too heavy as for its performance. (Currently, a close friend of mine rides it as a commuter e-bike on a loan from me).

Before Vibe, for two years I rode a "chinese" bike with a rear hub motor. That motor cannot be compared to the X35+, in terms of mode of operation. The X35+ simply works differently, supporting my efforts. The "chinese" worked on his own way, and I had to adapt to motor.

Let's conclude this story about the continuous power output of the X35+ rear hub motor for a given level of assistance, as you claim. This statement can only stand for each individual RPM, and can in no way stand for total output power. In that case, this confirms my readings on the achieved output power, which varies from zero watts to max. power. However, max. power is not a fixed value, and is only tentatively known value in advance..

 

[AntonioAlfaro]

Hi r1roman,
Thank you for your comments, I totally agree with them as they are the key points to keep in mind when using an ebike with rear hub motor like X35.
"the motor is more efficient on climbs with more cadence than less cadence, the resistance is more noticeable..."
"the weight of the cyclist, profile of the route, state of form and level of assistance are what determine consumption..."
Looking at your mapping of assistance levels L1 70= 70W, L2 65=119W and L3 80=200W, I would like to know additional information about your approximate power profile W/Kg. This will allow me to make a theoretical estimate (if you allow it) and compare with your custom values. It would be a great contribution from you to this forum. Greetings

 

[r1roman]

I have no idea how to do that, I weigh 72kg, the rest, I don't know anything, excuseme L2 65 = 112w

 

[ngg]

Do you know your power profile W/Kg?

I don't know my profile W / kg but i can assume it's around 2.5-3, definitely.

 

[AntonioAlfaro]

I have no idea how to do that, I weigh 72kg, the rest, I don't know anything

Well, let's see some clues: how many years practicing cycling? Your hight? Your age? Any illness that affects cycling? We will try to approximate a value based on other similar cyclists. It's just an exercise.

 

[AntonioAlfaro]

I don't know my profile W / kg but i can assume it's around 2.5-3, definitely.

My same estimation...!!!

 

[AntonioAlfaro]

I don't know my profile W / kg but i can assume it's around 2.5-3, definitely.

very good eye!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Before Vibe, for two years I rode a "chinese" bike with a rear hub motor. That motor cannot be compared to the X35+, in terms of mode of operation. The X35+ simply works differently, supporting my efforts. The "chinese" worked on his own way, and I had to adapt to motor.

Let's conclude this story about the continuous power output of the X35+ rear hub motor for a given level of assistance, as you claim. This statement can only stand for each individual RPM, and can in no way stand for total output power. In that case, this confirms my readings on the achieved output power, which varies from zero watts to max. power. However, max. power is not a fixed value, and is only tentatively known value in advance..

@ngg: x35 might offer variable power, if the system were equipped with a torque sensor. Such solutions for hub-drive motors do exist. I'm not competent to discuss the x35 that I do not own

 

[r1roman]

Well, let's see some clues: how many years practicing cycling? Your hight? Your age? Any illness that affects cycling? We will try to approximate a value based on other similar cyclists. It's just an exercise.

72kg, 1.73 tall, 40 years practicing cycling,67 years, no illness, that is, if I have a cigarette

 

[ngg]

x35 might offer variable power, if the system were equipped with a torque sensor

it doesn't really have to. It seems to be a marketing game from Specialized and some others. That sensor is actually unnecessary!

Let’s go a little into the field of physics to see that torque can be calculated without having to be measured!
Torque (Nm) = Power (watts) / (0.105 x Speed (RPM)

So, if you measure power and know the speed of turning the hub, then you know everything you need to calculate the torque. And if you have a good algorithm, then you don't need a torque sensor!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

if you measure power

How do you measure the pedalling power on an e-bike (or, on any bike)? Exactly, how you do it? How does a bike power meter work, exactly? Please enlighten me.

 

[ngg]

How do you measure the pedalling power on an e-bike (or, on any bike)? Exactly, how you do it?

as soon as the motor is running, power is measured

 

[Stefan Mikes]

as soon as the motor is running, power is measured

We are talking about the PEDALLING power, that is, the cyclist's power on the cranks.

 

[ngg]

We are talking about the PEDALLING power, that is, the cyclist's power on the cranks.

pedaling power is the power of the motor without resistance

 

[Stefan Mikes]

No. It is what you input into the cranks with your own legs. All the talk about W/kg is related to you, the cyclist.

 

[r1roman]

No. It is what you input into the cranks with your own legs. All the talk about W/kg is related to you, the cyclist.

you are correct stefan, that is measured with some devices that they sell and is placed on the cranks and rear hub

 

[AntonioAlfaro]

as soon as the motor is running, power is measured

Mahle hube motor max torque is 40Nm, also they recommend to keep a 15 to 20 Km/h speed.
15Km/h using a 700 wheel ( 2,136 mts/ revolution) means 117 rpm of the rear wheel. Using a 21/34 gear cassette conbination is equivalent to keep 72 rpm pedal cadence.