Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
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- Europe
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- Mazovia, PL
Agreed. If the system has no torque sensing, how could it provide variable assistance?
Orbea Gain D50 ( User learning and experiences )
- Thread starter AntonioAlfaro
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AntonioAlfaro
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r1roman
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- Barcelona
AntonioAlfaro
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Thanks r1roman,
I found that informetion very valuable. For me will be great to have the original excel file ( I wold like to find a relationship between motor rpm, assistance level and velocity). I see that Torque column is always 0% ( seems that the system does not calculate torque or it is hidden.
AntonioAlfaro
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What is in column L and M?
AntonioAlfaro
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After a pause to discuss other interesting topics about the operation of the X35 system, I allow myself to return to the development about my proposal for the objective estimation of assistance levels based on the cyclist's Power Profile.
As a summary:
1) Each cyclist has a mass (Kg) and has an FTP , that is, a sustained power delivery capacity (W).
2) The W/Kg ratio is known as the Cyclist Power Profile. A power profile of approximately 3 will be considered good for touring cycling.
3) Using an EBike adds mass that you don't have on a conventional road bike. In the case of systems based on Mahle X35 and aluminum bicycle frame, this additional mass is around 7Kg.
The methodology proposed here for estimating assistance levels is based on:
A) match the rider + the additional mass of 7Kg to a Power Profile of 3.
B) We will call this new power "Equalized Power"
C) We will call "Delta W" the difference (Equalized Power - FTP) and it will be a power that must be permanently supplied by the battery at each level of assistance. We can also understand it as the minimum lack of power and it must always be supplied by the battery.
D) We will estimate the power assistance levels based on ranges of % slopes that we can find on the route.
Level L0 (no assistance) when the slope of the route is in the negative range or from 0% to 4%.
Level L1 when the slope of the route is in the range of 4% to 7%.
L1=“Delta W” + (Equalized Power)x25%
Level L2 when the slope of the route is in the range of 8% to 11%.
L2=“Delta W” +(Equalized Power)x45%
Level L3 when the slope of the route is in the range of 12% and above.
L3=“Delta W”+ (Equalized Power)x70%
As an example we will use information provided by r1roman:
Mass= 72Kg
Height= 173cm
Experience = 40 years practicing cycling
Age= 67 years
FTP = unknown
Diseases = None
Considering that his background and that his Muscle Mass Index is at a normal value (we are going to dare to say that he is in good shape). A middle-aged cyclist with similar data, his FTP can be around 250 W. For the approximate case of r1roman we are going to estimate his FTP at 210 W. Then:
Power Profile= 210W/72Kg =2.92
For the calculation of the Equalized Power we take into account the mass of r1roman + 7kg of extra mass for the Ebike
Equalized Power= (72+7) x3= 237 W
DeltaW = (237-210)= 27W
With this we conclude in the following assistance level:
L1= 27+237x25%= 86 W , Mapping L1 in Mahle app will be = 86%
L2= 27+237x45%= 133 W , Mapping L2 in Mahle app will be = 76%
L3= 27+237x70%= 193 W , Mapping L3 in Mahle app will be = 77%
As I have said on several occasions, the purpose of this methodology is to have a starting point in the customization of our assistance levels, with the purpose of optimizing the energy available in the battery. On the other hand, with this optimization we will able to plan longer or more demanding routes.
From these input values, we can make fine adjustments based on the sensations we experience on the route. Finally we can achieve our well-tuned customization.
As a summary:
1) Each cyclist has a mass (Kg) and has an FTP , that is, a sustained power delivery capacity (W).
2) The W/Kg ratio is known as the Cyclist Power Profile. A power profile of approximately 3 will be considered good for touring cycling.
3) Using an EBike adds mass that you don't have on a conventional road bike. In the case of systems based on Mahle X35 and aluminum bicycle frame, this additional mass is around 7Kg.
The methodology proposed here for estimating assistance levels is based on:
A) match the rider + the additional mass of 7Kg to a Power Profile of 3.
B) We will call this new power "Equalized Power"
C) We will call "Delta W" the difference (Equalized Power - FTP) and it will be a power that must be permanently supplied by the battery at each level of assistance. We can also understand it as the minimum lack of power and it must always be supplied by the battery.
D) We will estimate the power assistance levels based on ranges of % slopes that we can find on the route.
Level L0 (no assistance) when the slope of the route is in the negative range or from 0% to 4%.
Level L1 when the slope of the route is in the range of 4% to 7%.
L1=“Delta W” + (Equalized Power)x25%
Level L2 when the slope of the route is in the range of 8% to 11%.
L2=“Delta W” +(Equalized Power)x45%
Level L3 when the slope of the route is in the range of 12% and above.
L3=“Delta W”+ (Equalized Power)x70%
As an example we will use information provided by r1roman:
Mass= 72Kg
Height= 173cm
Experience = 40 years practicing cycling
Age= 67 years
FTP = unknown
Diseases = None
Considering that his background and that his Muscle Mass Index is at a normal value (we are going to dare to say that he is in good shape). A middle-aged cyclist with similar data, his FTP can be around 250 W. For the approximate case of r1roman we are going to estimate his FTP at 210 W. Then:
Power Profile= 210W/72Kg =2.92
For the calculation of the Equalized Power we take into account the mass of r1roman + 7kg of extra mass for the Ebike
Equalized Power= (72+7) x3= 237 W
DeltaW = (237-210)= 27W
With this we conclude in the following assistance level:
L1= 27+237x25%= 86 W , Mapping L1 in Mahle app will be = 86%
L2= 27+237x45%= 133 W , Mapping L2 in Mahle app will be = 76%
L3= 27+237x70%= 193 W , Mapping L3 in Mahle app will be = 77%
As I have said on several occasions, the purpose of this methodology is to have a starting point in the customization of our assistance levels, with the purpose of optimizing the energy available in the battery. On the other hand, with this optimization we will able to plan longer or more demanding routes.
From these input values, we can make fine adjustments based on the sensations we experience on the route. Finally we can achieve our well-tuned customization.
AntonioAlfaro
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Back.
Today I reached a total accumulated distance of 1,800 km, with an average of 17.5% assistance at L1 level, 4% at L2 and 0.1 at L3.
These 1,800 km were traveled on mostly mid-mountain routes with gradients of up to 17%. The methodology followed for the customization of my power assistance levels has worked perfectly.
My next step will be to reduce the weight of the Orbea Gain 50 ebike as much as possible.
Today I reached a total accumulated distance of 1,800 km, with an average of 17.5% assistance at L1 level, 4% at L2 and 0.1 at L3.
These 1,800 km were traveled on mostly mid-mountain routes with gradients of up to 17%. The methodology followed for the customization of my power assistance levels has worked perfectly.
My next step will be to reduce the weight of the Orbea Gain 50 ebike as much as possible.
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the effect of tires is amazing. The picture below shows the parameters from the Mahle application for the same route, under the same conditions (weather, max uphill 8%, bike ride duration around 1.36 hours, etc.) - except for the tires.
Result:
- over 36% lower electricity consumption,
- 2 Amps lower max. electrical current (lower motor load)
- over 15% shorter use of the bicycle motor (front parts of the climbs can be mastered without motor assistance)
- overcoming the maximum ascent of 8% without the third level of assistance (previously not possible)
Result:
- over 36% lower electricity consumption,
- 2 Amps lower max. electrical current (lower motor load)
- over 15% shorter use of the bicycle motor (front parts of the climbs can be mastered without motor assistance)
- overcoming the maximum ascent of 8% without the third level of assistance (previously not possible)
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AntonioAlfaro
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before - Kenda Kwick700 (700-45C) pre-installed by Orbea
now - Panaracer Pasela PT wire (700x38C)
in addition to the above, I got even better acceleration and much, much more comfort. I didn’t dare go more radical than Pasela. I have ridden a bike about 250 km with them so far, without any problems.
AntonioAlfaro
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An additional question. This test was carried out on a normal road route, right?
What about tire pressure? Same pressure, what value?
What about tire pressure? Same pressure, what value?
all on exactly the same, normal (but not first-class) paved road route
The maximum recommended pressure is 6.2 bar for Pasela and 4.2 bar for Kenda. In both cases, I pumped up to 0.5 bar below the maximum recommended pressure (which is necessary for my weight).
AntonioAlfaro
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Recommendations to optimize battery performance:
1) Pay attention to the type of tires you are using. Rolling resistance, pressure, tire width, with tube or tubeless..
According to the ngg case study, a significant saving in battery charge was obtained with a simple change of tires.
All your tested battery power savings are welcone to this list.
1) Pay attention to the type of tires you are using. Rolling resistance, pressure, tire width, with tube or tubeless..
According to the ngg case study, a significant saving in battery charge was obtained with a simple change of tires.
All your tested battery power savings are welcone to this list.
AntonioAlfaro
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This week I have dedicated myself to mechanics. I decided to change the entire Shimano Claris R2000 group set for the Shimano 105 R7000, I have also changed the stock rims and tires for some DTSwissR460 with Continental GT5000 tires. The seat tube was changed to a Thomson Masterpiece and the seat to a Prologo Scratch M5.
Everything went perfect and now the mass of the Orbea Gain50 is 13Kg (2 Kg less).
Possibly if I had bought a better equipped Orbea from the beginning it would have been cheaper, but something that started as an experiment in the world of Ebikes has now become my favorite bike.
Everything went perfect and now the mass of the Orbea Gain50 is 13Kg (2 Kg less).
Possibly if I had bought a better equipped Orbea from the beginning it would have been cheaper, but something that started as an experiment in the world of Ebikes has now become my favorite bike.
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great! Two questions:
1. Why didn't you go with a single gear drive (front) ?
2. Do you have data on weight savings by individual components?
AntonioAlfaro
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why not one gear of 40 or 42 teeth? I think it would simplify power transmission, reduce overlapping combinations, and further reduce weight
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