Orbea Gain D50 ( User learning and experiences )

[Stefan Mikes]

This is completely impossible in a central engine."

Bullshit, if you ask me. Marketing blubber. Any SL e-bike (Vado SL, Como SL, Creo SL, Levo SL, Kenevo SL) has a system of clutches that totally disconnect the motor from pedalling if an SL e-bike is not powered for any reason. That way, an SL e-bike becomes a traditional bike. The most lightweight Vado SL weighs under 15 kg, has a mid-drive motor, and a 320 Wh internal battery.

The SL 1.1 motor is made by the same Mahle as x35 but exclusively for Specialized.

But the most important thing is: the torque and cadence sensors calculate the rider's power and translate it into variable assistance. Hopefully, the x35 has the torque sensor and can assist the rider with variable power, depending on the rider's power input.

 

[r1roman]

It has taken me some time to understand the data you provided about the 43.09Km run on flat ground but
based on 623 Wh composition, 1.9 hours of total duration of the route, your contribution of 142Wh and the Ebike 481Wh, come to be in term of average power (during the entire route) :
74.4 W from you, and
253.1W from the eBike.
We can not say (never ) that the average of 74.4W is equivalent to the FTP. No, it just means that on that ride you held 74W for whatever reason, but it doesn't mean that's all you can hold. On this ride you just let the ebike do 77% of the effort.
To really determine our FTP, we must make a measurement following a correct procedure and with the correct equipment (there is a lot of literature and applications about it). I recommend to do such a test.
Let me give an example of a real route of another cyclist and let's see the differences. General data:
Distance 51.83Km, Time 3.23hrs, Mountain pass 1328 meters of ascent, FTP (real measured) of the cyclist is 165W, mass of the cyclist 56Kg, W/Kg near to 3.
The Mahle app was used for battery consumption recording data only, and the Garmin Connect app in conjunction with the Garmin Edge 820 device and PowerTap pedals with power measurement to measure the power delivered by the rider.
We observed that the cyclist delivered an average of 142W from himself and required only an average of 24W from the Ebike. In other words, 15% of the power to carry out this route was provided by the Ebike and 85% was provided by the cyclist. Also note that the sustained average on this trip is consistent with his 165W FTP.
It makes me think that in your case, we can't say that your FTP is 80W or something like that, until a true measurement is done following standard procedures. Never with an eBike.
It is not an issue of age, nor of illness, it is that 80W of FTP seems to be too low, Iam such that you can delivery and sustain much more power. Lastly, I want to tell you that the cyclist in the example I just mentioned has some peculiarities: he is 68 years old and he is a cancer survivor since 10 years.

from what I see you are not talking about another cyclist, those captures say that you are the cyclist, according to the record in ebikemotion, the thread is very good but from my point of view it is all theory, practice is something else, it all depends on the weight cyclist, fitness, type of route and configuration of assistance, I have a turbo levo and a bianchi aria e road with x35 system, 67 years old and 10,000 km a year on average.I have done routes with bianchi with 2000 meters of accumulated difference in altitude and110km, and I have 20% left over of 240 w battery

 

[AntonioAlfaro]

Either way, but the data:
74.4 W from you, and
253.1W from the eBike.
they are neither theoretically nor practically possible, since a bicycle cannot give more power than a cyclist. This is the basic setting of e-bike operation.

Furthermore, your cadence of 70 and 102 indicates that you do not have such severely impaired physical function. These are very good numbers for an amateur.

It seems to me that there are problems with the software you use. Maybe even more than with the health condition.

Hi ngg, "
they are neither theoretically nor practically possible, since a bicycle cannot give more power than a cyclist. This is the basic setting of e-bike operation.
" can you elaborate on it.

 

[AntonioAlfaro]

Thank you Antonio. To explain my situation better: I suffer from inadequate blood supply to my legs; and high blood pressure combined with medication makes it impossible for me to increase the heart rate past 115. Yes, I can deliver higher power in bursts but not continuously. And I have ridden over 10,000 km in 2021.

If I'm riding the full power, speed Vado 5.0, my usual contribution to the ride is 25-30% (the latter value is for the warm season when I wear lightweight clothing and shoes). And now, there will be the best: my low-power & lightweight Vado SL lets me achieve more than 50% contribution to the ride! And it is perhaps because the SL assistance is half of what I get from the powerful e-bike! (That was the reason I bought Vado SL: the fitness role).

Another interesting fact is the figure of my Weighted Average Power for riding both e-bikes is the same (around 80 W). Does it shed some light?

Hi Stefan, now your case is clear for me. Let me say that what you are doing is great. Be sure that your fitnees will be growing every day. Try to do a +little effort every week ( in a controlled way) and you will feel body changes.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Hi Stefan, now your case is clear for me. Let me say that what you are doing is great. Be sure that your fitnees will be growing every day. Try to do a +little effort every week ( in a controlled way) and you will feel body changes.

Thank you for your kind remark. E-bikes have changed my life. I could reduce my body weight from 107 down to 95 or (in the summer) to 89 kg. My left leg was jeopardized with amputation and it is still doing well. Not to mention tenths of thousand of kilometres ridden, hundreds of adventures, and tenths of new riding mates of both sexes met

I wish that to anybody else.

I dedicate this video to you and ngg!

 

[AntonioAlfaro]

Does the x35 motor have a torque sensor?

X35 system does not have torque sensor. It is just a rpm sensor installed aside the casstte in the rear wheel.

 

[AntonioAlfaro]

No, not at all. According to my records, in the first level of assistance, for example, I received between 30 and 100 watts from the motor, although I set the first level at 75 watts.

On my bike, the boost is resolved automatically, up to the endurance of the motor. If necessary the motor goes over predefined limits (75 watts, e.g.)

When you set up the power of each assistance level you are definding a maximun output power, but when you are in that level you will receive power in the range of 0 to that maximun. The max power will not be permanent and constantly delivery.

 

[AntonioAlfaro]

from what I see you are not talking about another cyclist, those captures say that you are the cyclist, according to the record in ebikemotion, the thread is very good but from my point of view it is all theory, practice is something else, it all depends on the weight cyclist, fitness, type of route and configuration of assistance, I have a turbo levo and a bianchi aria e road with x35 system, 67 years old and 10,000 km a year on average.I have done routes with bianchi with 2000 meters of accumulated difference in altitude and110km, and I have 20% left over of 240 w battery

Welcome r1roman. Practice makes perfect, I totally agree with you. We have to ride a lot to improve and/or stay in shape. The years weigh too. I am sure that you will help us in this forum with your experiences especially with the X53 Mahle system.

 

[AntonioAlfaro]

from what I see you are not talking about another cyclist, those captures say that you are the cyclist, according to the record in ebikemotion, the thread is very good but from my point of view it is all theory, practice is something else, it all depends on the weight cyclist, fitness, type of route and configuration of assistance, I have a turbo levo and a bianchi aria e road with x35 system, 67 years old and 10,000 km a year on average.I have done routes with bianchi with 2000 meters of accumulated difference in altitude and110km, and I have 20% left over of 240 w battery

Hello r1roman. I would like to know a bit more about the setup you are using with your Bianchi ebike. It will be very useful for the purposes of this forum to know the methodology that you followed to customize your support levels in the X35 system. As you know, the purpose of my development is to explain and document my own methodology based on the result of many Kms traveled at different altitudes and durations, compared with real data and feelings during the routes. This theoretical methodology at the beginning is based on personal data of each cyclist, and will be the starting point so that later, through fine adjustments of real tests on the road, each cyclist optimizes the use of the battery to the maximum, through efficient customization. Will be nice to have your inputs.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

When you set up the power of each assistance level you are definding a maximun output power, but when you are in that level you will receive power in the range of 0 to that maximun. The max power will not be permanent and constantly delivery.

I'm interested how it works.
In the mid-drive motor, the power input of the rider is measured, and it is recalculated to power demand from the motor.
In hub-drive motor system, the e-bike knows the rider's cadence and the speed of the rear wheel. What is making the power delivery variable in the x35 system? That is, what should the rider do to make the motor generate just half of the maximum power available for given assistance level?

 

[AntonioAlfaro]

I'm interested how it works.
In the mid-drive motor, the power input of the rider is measured, and it is recalculated to power demand from the motor.
In hub-drive motor system, the e-bike knows the rider's cadence and the speed of the rear wheel. What is making the power delivery variable in the x35 system? That is, what should the rider do to make the motor generate just half of the maximum power available for given assistance level?

Let me attach son info regarding rear hub X35 sensor.

Also I add an segment of L1 and L2 showing variations of power delivery. In fact if I increase
my cadence ( rpm of rear wheel) power delivery decrease, Mahle recomend to keep around 70 RPM pedal cadence.

 

[AntonioAlfaro]

Let me attach son info regarding rear hub X35 sensor.

Also I add an segment of L1 and L2 showing variations of power delivery. In fact if I increase
my cadence ( rpm of rear wheel) power delivery decrease, Mahle recomend to keep around 70 RPM pedal cadence.

This video shows how a hub motor like X35 is biuld. As per Mahle specs. there is a 14:1 gear ratio and 40Nm max torque.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Antonio,

This is a principle of any PAS. hub-drive motor. The cadence, rear wheel rpm, and motor rpm sensors combined with the controller:

• Ensure the motor activates when you are pedalling, and cut the power off when not pedalling
• Adjust the motor RPM to be in phase with rear wheel RPM. (so the motor does not push the bike more than necessary because of too high RPM or drags the bike because of too low RPM)

The motor power increases at higher cadence because the motor efficiency reaches its maximum at certain RPM range. However, the hub-drive motor power is close to the predefined maximum, and it does not depend on the rider's power input. Downshift dramatically and start spinning the cranks with very little resistance on pedals -- the bike will still provide power close to the maximum at a given PAS level.

Said the above, I need to point out PAS hub drives have their positive sides: they are lightweight (if we are talking 250 W); their power use on long trips is very predictable (because they assist with constant power); and you travel near to the maximum possible speed for given PAS level. Another benefit is the manufacturer can easily re-design one of their lightweight road bikes and produce it as an e-bike: a lightweight, stealthy e-bike at a reasonable price.

Mid-drive motor adds at least one more sensor: the rider's torque sensor at the crank side. The torque and cadence sensors together actually form a power meter. The measured rider's pedal power is recalculated into the motor power, and the combined pedal and motor power is transferred to the rear wheel via drive-train, taking the benefit of the e-bike's gearing. The most important feature of a mid-drive motor is it delivers truly variable power only depending on the rider's power input, and of the assistance level settings.

The big difference between the hub-drive and mid-drive motors is the former offer constant power delivery, and the latter sport variable power delivery at given assistance level. For this reason, it is difficult to estimate the battery range for a mid-drive motor. For instance: If I ride on my Lovelec hub-drive motor e-bike, I can safely say I can ride for 80 km in PAS 2. I need to, however, use extra tools to determine my battery range for my Vado or Vado SL.

Good mid-drive motor e-bikes are very expensive, and it is hard to make a truly lightweight mid-motor e-bike. Some manufacturers could do it, for instance Specialized with their SL series (Specialized SL 1.1 mid-drive motor by Mahle) or Cannondale with their Topstone Lefty Neo Carbon (Bosch mid-drive motor).

Lightweight mid-drive e-bikes are rare. The same Cannondale makes Topstone Neo SL, which has the same x35 motor as Orbea Gain or Vibe.

 

[ngg]

Antonio,

This is a principle of any PAS. hub-drive motor. The cadence, rear wheel rpm, and motor rpm sensors combined with the controller:

• Ensure the motor activates when you are pedalling, and cut the power off when not pedalling
• Adjust the motor RPM to be in phase with rear wheel RPM. (so the motor does not push the bike more than necessary because of too high RPM or drags the bike because of too low RPM)

The motor power increases at higher cadence because the motor efficiency reaches its maximum at certain RPM range. However, the hub-drive motor power is close to the predefined maximum, and it does not depend on the rider's power input. Downshift dramatically and start spinning the cranks with very little resistance on pedals -- the bike will still provide power close to the maximum at a given PAS level.

Said the above, I need to point out PAS hub drives have their positive sides: they are lightweight (if we are talking 250 W); their power use on long trips is very predictable (because they assist with constant power); and you travel near to the maximum possible speed for given PAS level. Another benefit is the manufacturer can easily re-design one of their lightweight road bikes and produce it as an e-bike: a lightweight, stealthy e-bike at a reasonable price.

Mid-drive motor adds at least one more sensor: the rider's torque sensor at the crank side. The torque and cadence sensors together actually form a power meter. The measured rider's pedal power is recalculated into the motor power, and the combined pedal and motor power is transferred to the rear wheel via drive-train, taking the benefit of the e-bike's gearing. The most important feature of a mid-drive motor is it delivers truly variable power only depending on the rider's power input, and of the assistance level settings.

The big difference between the hub-drive and mid-drive motors is the former offer constant power delivery, and the latter sport variable power delivery at given assistance level. For this reason, it is difficult to estimate the battery range for a mid-drive motor. For instance: If I ride on my Lovelec hub-drive motor e-bike, I can safely say I can ride for 80 km in PAS 2. I need to, however, use extra tools to determine my battery range for my Vado or Vado SL.

Good mid-drive motor e-bikes are very expensive, and it is hard to make a truly lightweight mid-motor e-bike. Some manufacturers could do it, for instance Specialized with their SL series (Specialized SL 1.1 mid-drive motor by Mahle) or Cannondale with their Topstone Lefty Neo Carbon (Bosch mid-drive motor).

Lightweight mid-drive e-bikes are rare. The same Cannondale makes Topstone Neo SL, which has the same x35 motor as Orbea Gain or Vibe.

and how do you interpret the fact that my motor slows down as I slow down to a stop (e.g. at a traffic light) and then speeds up as I speed up? With continuous power for a given level, it just wouldn't work! Something is missing.

 

[AntonioAlfaro]

Antonio,

This is a principle of any PAS. hub-drive motor. The cadence, rear wheel rpm, and motor rpm sensors combined with the controller:

• Ensure the motor activates when you are pedalling, and cut the power off when not pedalling
• Adjust the motor RPM to be in phase with rear wheel RPM. (so the motor does not push the bike more than necessary because of too high RPM or drags the bike because of too low RPM)

The motor power increases at higher cadence because the motor efficiency reaches its maximum at certain RPM range. However, the hub-drive motor power is close to the predefined maximum, and it does not depend on the rider's power input. Downshift dramatically and start spinning the cranks with very little resistance on pedals -- the bike will still provide power close to the maximum at a given PAS level.

Said the above, I need to point out PAS hub drives have their positive sides: they are lightweight (if we are talking 250 W); their power use on long trips is very predictable (because they assist with constant power); and you travel near to the maximum possible speed for given PAS level. Another benefit is the manufacturer can easily re-design one of their lightweight road bikes and produce it as an e-bike: a lightweight, stealthy e-bike at a reasonable price.

Mid-drive motor adds at least one more sensor: the rider's torque sensor at the crank side. The torque and cadence sensors together actually form a power meter. The measured rider's pedal power is recalculated into the motor power, and the combined pedal and motor power is transferred to the rear wheel via drive-train, taking the benefit of the e-bike's gearing. The most important feature of a mid-drive motor is it delivers truly variable power only depending on the rider's power input, and of the assistance level settings.

The big difference between the hub-drive and mid-drive motors is the former offer constant power delivery, and the latter sport variable power delivery at given assistance level. For this reason, it is difficult to estimate the battery range for a mid-drive motor. For instance: If I ride on my Lovelec hub-drive motor e-bike, I can safely say I can ride for 80 km in PAS 2. I need to, however, use extra tools to determine my battery range for my Vado or Vado SL.

Good mid-drive motor e-bikes are very expensive, and it is hard to make a truly lightweight mid-motor e-bike. Some manufacturers could do it, for instance Specialized with their SL series (Specialized SL 1.1 mid-drive motor by Mahle) or Cannondale with their Topstone Lefty Neo Carbon (Bosch mid-drive motor).

Lightweight mid-drive e-bikes are rare. The same Cannondale makes Topstone Neo SL, which has the same x35 motor as Orbea Gain or Vibe.

I agree what you said. I really like my Orbea gain with rear hub X35 motor, I have learn a lot how deal with it and now I am upgrading some parts in order to reduce bike mass. Next step is to buy a batterie extender ( dificult to find it).

 

[ngg]

Antonio,

This is a principle of any PAS. hub-drive motor. The cadence, rear wheel rpm, and motor rpm sensors combined with the controller:

• Ensure the motor activates when you are pedalling, and cut the power off when not pedalling
• Adjust the motor RPM to be in phase with rear wheel RPM. (so the motor does not push the bike more than necessary because of too high RPM or drags the bike because of too low RPM)

The motor power increases at higher cadence because the motor efficiency reaches its maximum at certain RPM range. However, the hub-drive motor power is close to the predefined maximum, and it does not depend on the rider's power input. Downshift dramatically and start spinning the cranks with very little resistance on pedals -- the bike will still provide power close to the maximum at a given PAS level.

Said the above, I need to point out PAS hub drives have their positive sides: they are lightweight (if we are talking 250 W); their power use on long trips is very predictable (because they assist with constant power); and you travel near to the maximum possible speed for given PAS level. Another benefit is the manufacturer can easily re-design one of their lightweight road bikes and produce it as an e-bike: a lightweight, stealthy e-bike at a reasonable price.

Mid-drive motor adds at least one more sensor: the rider's torque sensor at the crank side. The torque and cadence sensors together actually form a power meter. The measured rider's pedal power is recalculated into the motor power, and the combined pedal and motor power is transferred to the rear wheel via drive-train, taking the benefit of the e-bike's gearing. The most important feature of a mid-drive motor is it delivers truly variable power only depending on the rider's power input, and of the assistance level settings.

The big difference between the hub-drive and mid-drive motors is the former offer constant power delivery, and the latter sport variable power delivery at given assistance level. For this reason, it is difficult to estimate the battery range for a mid-drive motor. For instance: If I ride on my Lovelec hub-drive motor e-bike, I can safely say I can ride for 80 km in PAS 2. I need to, however, use extra tools to determine my battery range for my Vado or Vado SL.

Good mid-drive motor e-bikes are very expensive, and it is hard to make a truly lightweight mid-motor e-bike. Some manufacturers could do it, for instance Specialized with their SL series (Specialized SL 1.1 mid-drive motor by Mahle) or Cannondale with their Topstone Lefty Neo Carbon (Bosch mid-drive motor).

Lightweight mid-drive e-bikes are rare. The same Cannondale makes Topstone Neo SL, which has the same x35 motor as Orbea Gain or Vibe.

and it is not possible to estimate the battery life, too Today I had estimates from 200km to 70km! The estimate decreased with increasing uphills!

 

[AntonioAlfaro]

and it is not possible to estimate the battery life, too Today I had estimates from 200km to 70km! The estimate decreased with increasing uphills!

Hi ngg, what ebike are you riding.

 

[ngg]

Hi ngg, what ebike are you riding.

Orbea Vibe, younger brother of your Gain

 

[AntonioAlfaro]

Orbea Vibe, younger brother of your Gain

How did you estimated the distance? 200km -- 70km is a very big
uncertainty range.
My methodology tries to have much more certainty. In the next few days I will continue with my explanations.
Do you know your power profile W/Kg?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

and how do you interpret the fact that my motor slows down as I slow down to a stop (e.g. at a traffic light) and then speeds up as I speed up? With continuous power for a given level, it just wouldn't work! Something is missing.

ngg, it is very easy to explain. As you slow down, the rear wheel RPM drops. The motor needs to slow down its rotation (to be in phase with the rear wheel), getting into the point on the characteristics when it becomes inefficient. However, the power produced by the motor is not depending on your leg input power.

and it is not possible to estimate the battery life, too Today I had estimates from 200km to 70km! The estimate decreased with increasing uphills!

I have oversimplified the matter totally. It is because I used to ride my Lovelec in the plains only. Of course, as you climb, you need to increase assistance. Or, your wheel/motor slow down so much the motor gets into the inefficient range. Bear in mind: climbing means a big increase in the potential energy accumulated in your body + bike mass. That energy can only come from your legs, or from your battery.

To further clarify: I have ridden for 4000 km on my hub-drive Lovelec, so I have a good understanding how hub-drives do work. As I was riding my Lovelec only on the flat, I enjoyed its very good average (and predictable) speed as well as predictable power consumption (the electronics of Lovelec even "didn't stand next to" what you have in your Orbea e-bikes!) My only complaint on that e-bike was it was too heavy as for its performance. (Currently, a close friend of mine rides it as a commuter e-bike on a loan from me).