NYC PSA E-bike Battery Fires 11/11/22 NBC News

[indianajo]

Since my camping days are over, I now stay in a dozen different hotels during my regular bike trips. A hotel battery ban would severely limit my ability to continue the sport. In addition to charging in room, for security reasons, I often take the bike inside as well. What are the alternatives? Sure, I could securely lock the bike to the vehicle but there is still no way to charge batteries.
An extension cord out the hotel window perhaps? For security, most of the hotels I use don't have windows that open. I've checked and none have outside outlets. Using 2 chargers, it takes 4 to 5 hours to charge my two batteries. That's a long time to wait at a gas station, laundromat, grocery store, restaurant, etc.
I suppose I could plead ignorance, sneak the batteries in and charge in room anyway. I'd hate to break the rule / law and perhaps open myself up to a lawsuit should an incident occur.

I've been fantasizing about touring off my ebike. I ride on road, it is sometimes scary but I do it all the time. Touring has to be compatible with motels; I gave up camping since I left the Army. RV campgrounds stink & public toilets give me respiratory diseases. I've got the money for motels, but problems listed above make me stay at home. No power would limit me often to 30 miles a day on the bike, much boring terrain. Or less in mountainous terrain, which would frequently be my destination. Just pushing a bike up the stairs to a 2nd story room is daunting to me. My bike weighs 94 lb with water rain gear tools tire & tubes. 3/5 my weight. That is with a 17.5 AH battery, and I bought a 42 AH one for extended touring that weighs about 40 lb. The 42 AH battery would get me to the train station in Cincinnatti on one charge, despite all the hills E. of Madison, IN.
I suppose any touring in future will be limited to renting a car. I had a ball in the wife's Elanta 10/22, 3950 miles, 9 days, 45 mpg. But that car is only available the week I send her out on a cruise ship. She won't walk more than 100', which means I can't take her to many scenic destinations.

 

[EMGX]

IMO this seems to be headed in the right direction with regulation and required certification to standards known to reduce risk, if reliably effective standards are known. No import or sale of non-compliant batteries and consequences for use of non-compliant batteries, especially DIY or altered batteries. It would also serve to eliminate postulating about presumed adequacy or inadequacy of batteries based upon opinion rather than set standards. I'm interested in seeing how his pans out but it'll probably take time if it occurs at all.

Some hotels already don't allow ebike battery charging regardless of type or brand. While on few day tour I've charged mine at outdoor public facilities including a state park picnic area and a plug on the outside of a city hall/police station and have charged while driving with a high capacity, good quality inverter.

 

[J.R.]

I'm also looking at adding a fire resistant liner to the charging can. Perhaps something as simple as cement board would be an improvement.

Two 15" x 24" x 3/4" refractory panels rated for 2300°F, for $84. Designed for fire box. Thermal shock resistant as well. Larger panels available.

Lynn Manufacturing Ceramic Fiber Board Insulation, 2300F-Rated, 15" x 24" x 3/4", Pack of 2, for Boiler, Stove, Forge, Kiln, Baffle Board, 1022 https://a.co/d/5Lrl617

 

[tomjasz]

Two 15" x 24" x 3/4" refractory panels rated for 2300°F, for $84. Designed for fire box. Thermal shock resistant as well. Larger panels available.

Lynn Manufacturing Ceramic Fiber Board Insulation, 2300F-Rated, 15" x 24" x 3/4", Pack of 2, for Boiler, Stove, Forge, Kiln, Baffle Board, 1022 https://a.co/d/5Lrl617

Ceramic fabrics may be a good choice as well. Although some safe box designs seem to use blankets of what looks like vermiculite.

“In certain mixes for insulation purposes, vermiculite and perlite can withstand temperatures of up to 2,000°F and 2,100°F (1,093°C and 1,149°C) respectively before excessive shrinkage occurs.”​

 

[Gionnirocket]

Ceramic fabrics may be a good choice as well. Although some safe box designs seem to use blankets of what looks like vermiculite.

“In certain mixes for insulation purposes, vermiculite and perlite can withstand temperatures of up to 2,000°F and 2,100°F (1,093°C and 1,149°C) respectively before excessive shrinkage occurs.”​

For me it's the complete opposite...
I can withstand temperatures as low as 40°f to 45°f (7°c to 4°c) respectively before excessive shrinkage occurs.

 

[6zfshdb]

IMO this seems to be headed in the right direction with regulation and required certification to standards known to reduce risk, if reliably effective standards are known. No import or sale of non-compliant batteries and consequences for use of non-compliant batteries, especially DIY or altered batteries. It would also serve to eliminate postulating about presumed adequacy or inadequacy of batteries based upon opinion rather than set standards. I'm interested in seeing how his pans out but it'll probably take time if it occurs at all.

Some hotels already don't allow ebike battery charging regardless of type or brand. While on few day tour I've charged mine at outdoor public facilities including a state park picnic area and a plug on the outside of a city hall/police station and have charged while driving with a high capacity, good quality inverter.

I've used the inverter in my pickup to top off my batteries on days when I ride in multiple locations. I've seen e-bike riders using EV charging stations with an adapter but this leads to conflicts with EV owners. Whether I do it this way or find an outlet somewhere, it still takes time. Personally, I'd rather be riding than sitting somewhere waiting for a battery to charge.

Until fast charge technology becomes available for e-bike batteries, time will continue to be our enemy. Personally, I would prefer to multitask and get some sleep while the batteries charge in a hotel room. All hotels are required to have in room smoke alarms but I bring my own just in case. I haven't done so yet but I'm considering a fire extinguisher as well.

As others have said, hopefully, regulations on the quality and construction of these batteries & chargers will occur before this problem gets totally out of hand.

Perhaps something as simple as requiring the same standards used in cordless tool batteries would help. Sure, they are much smaller capacity but they don't suffer the same bad rap as e-bike batteries.

 

[newts]

If you want to ride an E-bike, you will have to assume some risk when storing & charging batteries. Many threads here on EBR have outlined ways to mitigate this risk. They largely depend on budget (The ability to afford quality batteries & chargers), environment, DIY capabilities and a certain level of common sense.

Obviously, the safest way to charge is outdoors and away from anything flammable. Unfortunately, not everyone has the ability to do this consistently, mainly due to climate issues. The next best approach is to charge in a temperature controlled structure separate from the living area like a detached garage. Again, not everyone has this luxury.

In my case, I lack the ability to charge outdoors or in a detached garage. My only option is to do it in my attached garage / workshop. I use ammo cans to both store & charge. They are placed on a dolly, on a concrete floor under a smoke / fire / CO2 detector. I never charge when I'm not able to hear the alarm. The dolly can easily & quickly be rolled out of the building with a garden rake should an incident occur.



Two of the ammo cans are used for storage and the third for charging. That one has bulkhead connectors installed which will let me charge 1 or 2 batteries with the can sealed. I rarely charge two at a time unless it is at a low current rate to minimize heat buildup.

I can connect 1 or 2 chargers as necessary. I use Satiators with XLR plugs and adapters but almost any charger and connector type can be used. The bulkhead connectors allow the cans to remain sealed to better contain a fire.

View attachment 140220


Keep in mind, battery fires are relatively rare even when no precautions are taken. My system certainly isn't perfect but it does further reduce the risk of a catastrophe.

I wouldn't seal the batteries up like that. You increase the heat and if there is a problem you now have another problem with a pressurized can of burning lithium. Lithium A) puts out oxygen causing more danger if sealed and B) doesn't require oxygen to burn so a sealed container won't choke it off.
Drill a bunch of vent holes near the top. The box will still contain the fire for some time.

 

[6zfshdb]

I wouldn't seal the batteries up like that. You increase the heat and if there is a problem you now have another problem with a pressurized can of burning lithium. Lithium A) puts out oxygen causing more danger if sealed and B) doesn't require oxygen to burn so a sealed container won't choke it off.
Drill a bunch of vent holes near the top. The box will still contain the fire for some time.

If you read my later post, I don't. I just rest the lid on top of the can without clamping it down. Any sudden pressure buildup will just lift the lid off to vent. Minor pressure is vented around the bulkhead connectors which aren't sealed to the can.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I've used the inverter in my pickup to top off my batteries on days when I ride in multiple locations. I've seen e-bike riders using EV charging stations with an adapter but this leads to conflicts with EV owners. Whether I do it this way or find an outlet somewhere, it still takes time. Personally, I'd rather be riding than sitting somewhere waiting for a battery to charge.

Until fast charge technology becomes available for e-bike batteries, time will continue to be our enemy. Personally, I would prefer to multitask and get some sleep while the batteries charge in a hotel room. All hotels are required to have in room smoke alarms but I bring my own just in case. I haven't done so yet but I'm considering a fire extinguisher as well.

As others have said, hopefully, regulations on the quality and construction of these batteries & chargers will occur before this problem gets totally out of hand.

Perhaps something as simple as requiring the same standards used in cordless tool batteries would help. Sure, they are much smaller capacity but they don't suffer the same bad rap as e-bike batteries.

From what I'm understanding fire extinguishers aren't much help... Especially one considered as travel size.
I'd spend that time evacuating and alerting others.

I think throwing a couple of layers of welding blanket over it would slow the spread more effectively.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Here are two interesting reads....

BU-304a: Safety Concerns with Li-ion

Learn what causes Li-ion to fail and what to do in case of fire. Battery makers are obligated to meet safety requirements, but less reputable firms may cheat.

batteryuniversity.com

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/systems/lithium-ion_battery_04112006.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjHioaU1OL7AhUKgXIEHfNGBlMQFnoECEgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2cAe_R45J5BrjKEnaTHVMy

And unless I'm missing something... All the discussion on industrial fire boxes is for storage and transportation, not for charging....
And I believe there is a very good reason it should not be done.

 

[procreator]

It seems that each e-bike sold needs to have some kind of battery conformance certification. I don't think the ones I bought mention anything about it.

Yet, in the end (per the articles above) the risk of a fire is small.

 

[AHicks]

It seems that each e-bike sold needs to have some kind of battery conformance certification. I don't think the ones I bought mention anything about it.

Yet, in the end (per the articles above) the risk of a fire is small.

That may help some, but it's not going to head off misuse/ignorance, or eliminate the potential for issues generated by homebuilders.

 

[tomjasz]

For me it's the complete opposite...
I can withstand temperatures as low as 40°f to 45°f (7°c to 4°c) respectively before excessive shrinkage occurs.

 

[EMGX]

I've used the inverter in my pickup to top off my batteries on days when I ride in multiple locations. I've seen e-bike riders using EV charging stations with an adapter but this leads to conflicts with EV owners. Whether I do it this way or find an outlet somewhere, it still takes time. Personally, I'd rather be riding than sitting somewhere waiting for a battery to charge.

Until fast charge technology becomes available for e-bike batteries, time will continue to be our enemy. Personally, I would prefer to multitask and get some sleep while the batteries charge in a hotel room. All hotels are required to have in room smoke alarms but I bring my own just in case. I haven't done so yet but I'm considering a fire extinguisher as well.

As others have said, hopefully, regulations on the quality and construction of these batteries & chargers will occur before this problem gets totally out of hand.

Perhaps something as simple as requiring the same standards used in cordless tool batteries would help. Sure, they are much smaller capacity but they don't suffer the same bad rap as e-bike batteries.

Even decent quality tool batteries have been related to fires. Ryobi had a recall of their 18v 4ah batteries due to fires while charging. I have 4 of those batteries but not in the lot recalled. 10+ years of nearly constant use rotated between the batteries and all of them still work great.
BTW Ryobi has 40v batteries from 4 to 12ah at fairly reasonable prices that should work with 36v systems. If I had a need I'd buy a 6ah version including compact charger for <$200, adapters are easily available for <$20 to use with an ebike.

 

[procreator]

Question, suppose I dropped my battery when attempting to remove it for charging or storage and observed physical damage, for example. Should I get it checked out before attempting to charge it and by whom?

 

[AHicks]

Question, suppose I dropped my battery when attempting to remove it for charging or storage and observed physical damage, for example. Should I get it checked out before attempting to charge it and by whom?

I don't think I'd be too concerned if there was no damage to the case (other than maybe a scratch). Hopefully, that drop exposed the potential to drop, leading to more careful handling?

 

[6zfshdb]

Even decent quality tool batteries have been related to fires. Ryobi had a recall of their 18v 4ah batteries due to fires while charging. I have 4 of those batteries but not in the lot recalled. 10+ years of nearly constant use rotated between the batteries and all of them still work great.
BTW Ryobi has 40v batteries from 4 to 12ah at fairly reasonable prices that should work with 36v systems. If I had a need I'd buy a 6ah version including compact charger for <$200, adapters are easily available for <$20 to use with an ebike.

I already have quite a few DeWalt tools, batteries & chargers. I use them with the adapter you mention as e-bike range extenders. I mounted the adapter to the base of an old Dorado battery and swap it out like a spare. There's even room for a bottle cage.

 

[J.R.]

Ceramic fabrics may be a good choice as well. Although some safe box designs seem to use blankets of what looks like vermiculite.

“In certain mixes for insulation purposes, vermiculite and perlite can withstand temperatures of up to 2,000°F and 2,100°F (1,093°C and 1,149°C) respectively before excessive shrinkage occurs.”​

Vermiculite is used in many fire box refractory panels. In the 80's companies tried to use vermiculite as an insulation for cavity walls, but eventhough it is extremely lightweight, it was heavy enough to settle over a short time, leaving large gaps and the small granules would leak out of wall outlets and switches. It then would buldge out the sheetrock near the floor. How do I know all this? My company's offices were insulated with vermiculite Great insulation though!

 

[tomjasz]

I wouldn't seal the batteries up like that. You increase the heat

Properly designed battery sizes to match a properly sized controller/motor and heat is not an issue. Ive had some large battery packs, 100+ cells cranking out 30A and 1500W motors and batteries that just get warm. Not much higher than ambient.

 

[Dewey]

The suggestion in this video by @Chris Nolte for regulating that power outlets and a battery charging safe be installed in building bike rooms is good, but more than new residential I’d like to see buildings that already have a bike room or bike storage in a parking garage or even at one or two spaces at an outdoor bike rack in front of a building, be retrofitted where possible. I bring my battery into my office during the day, for security and to charge at my desk. My workplace does not permit space heaters, I’d hate to see batteries similarly banned without alternative facilities.

…the backlash continues, this is what I feared and I hope this action does not take off, but Universities tend to follow one another on safety issues. I note Fordham U is not on the Bicycle League’s list of bicycle friendly universities (BFU), but neither is my University employer. The League of American Bicyclists should incorporate building safe battery charging facilities into it’s BFU program.

In other news BRAIN reported in July the NBDA visited Underwriters Laboratory "to discuss safe charging and storage for lithium batteries and establish a national registry of e-bike brands that are UL 2849 certified" Source

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1601066983457320960